Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #10

[KatieMorag]

This verdict shouldn't take more than five minutes. It's very obvious to me that they are guilty on all counts.

The jury I served on were thick as mince though (sorry, but it's true) and we spent a long time explaining to people things like 'Their blood at the scene definitely proves they were there' and 'Your invented hypothetical scenario of how this could have happened a different way that nobody involved in the case remotely suggested in their evidence or used as a defence isn't something we need to consider'. And 'We don't need to be debating this bit, even the defendant agrees this bit happened and we saw that on the CCTV'. Actually blood boiling just remembering. I would never want to be tried by a jury of my peers because it turns out my peers are fucking idiots.

 

[Bleekemolen]

So got to OB just before 2pm session. No friends or family for her in the line up, but 5-6 supporters of her who have been writing to her in prison.

Got speaking with them and they support her because they think it was her family accusing him of DV that the other 4 children got taken away. They are completely supportive of her and think her family and SS are to blame for the situation that CM and MG found themselves in. They asked me about her family and I (perhaps stupidly) said that I could understand their reasons for concern. Got pounced on for that and asked if it was because of his skin colour?? When I said no and that it was because of his previous convictions, their attitude was that everyone makes mistakes when they are younger.

So sorry if this offends people, but I hold my hands up and say that I would not be happy if my son or daughter brought home a convicted rapist as their partner. I’ve done stupid things when I was younger, but nothing as serious as that.

I missed the part about Tom Little talking about their toxic relationship, and saw him picking up on all the big lies she had said during her evidence/cross examination. The buggy was in court and he talked about how she tried to mislead the jury about the buggy they bought with a sleeping bag and muff. He explained how they had got the exact buggy with serial number and there was no bag or muff.

He also said how inconceivable it was that a black cab or taxi would not take a buggy onboard and that their real reasoning was because the buggy would not fit in the tent that they planned to live in.

The next lie to expose was the evidence about a car seat. The fact that no evidence of a car seat was seen by any of the drivers that drove them around, or found in their car when it was found. He highlighted that a blanket and placenta was found after the fire, but no car seat.

The next area he went on to was the avoidance of MG to give evidence. Highlighted the fact that he was happy to ask for food and comment how good the crisps were, but not comment on where baby Victoria was. Went through his police statement and highlighted all the points when he could have given simple answers but chose not to. There were so many, but one example asked when his daughter was born… most people would remember Christmas Eve as the date, but not MG. Claimed MG had not given evidence because he knew that he had not given the same story as CM and so it was better to let the “more intelligent and articulate” person take the stand. There was also parts where his police statements were read out about the sleeping arrangements that seemed to contradict what she had said surrounding the death of Victoria. There was then a break.

He then went on to say how all the other children were taken lawfully (he def used that word) into care and not to believe the spin CM had put on things. He said that if they had really wanted to keep her, that they would have engaged with SS, etc.

That was it for today.

As I said earlier, neither seemed outraged about what was said. Lots of note passing between the two of them which I’m surprised is alllowed. She seemed tired. Lots of yawning and no tears or emotion.

Not sure if I can get back there tomorrow or not, but will do my best
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One thing I forgot was that MG mentioned in his police interview that baby Victoria did not always sleep a lot and cried. This was contradicting what CM has said in the stand about accusing witnesses of making up stories that they heard her crying, etc. Tom Little said that he would come on to this. Perhaps it will be tomorrow?

I think a lot of tomorrow and Wednesday will be him finishing off and then the defence barristers. Reckon the jury will be out on Thursday

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

You don’t get a refund on your holiday if you do jury service.
The judicial system can’t pay people to not go on holiday.
Many can only take holiday when schools allow, or for people in manufacturing it’s restricted to the shutdown weeks which are mandated by the company.

We all want justice for Victoria.
We all want them both to be found guilty.

But it’s in no way the jury’s fault that this trial has run over by (so far) 9 weeks.

We don’t even know if it is holiday. It could be caring responsibilities or a medical treatment or something absolutely essential which is - to that person - a higher priority than making the trial a few days shorter.
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Jury service obligations should come first in my opinion. Holidays can be rebooked but a baby's life can't.

If a juror was expected to prioritise this trial over everything else, that juror may well no longer be able to be impartial, rational or take the time needed to do it properly and fairly.

If I was made to cancel a holiday (or any number of other things) I might feel really upset, annoyed, furious, and that would mean I couldn’t continue the deliberations in the way I should.

This is going to sound really blunt but I can’t sugar coat it.

The baby cannot be brought back to life. She is dead. Nothing can change that.

What’s important is having a fair trial with an impartial jury, led by the facts not their feelings.

(Also if they are found innocent they’ll have had extra long on remand away from each other)

 

[WadieHaddadsChocolates]

Hope this is ok and don’t want to derail the thread but I have just seen this . Currently on trial . Different but what struck me is the face down issue and CM’s defence.

Baby died after being strapped to bean bag by deputy nursery manager and ignored, court hears

Kate Roughley is accused of the manslaughter by ill-treatment of nine-month-old Genevieve Meehan, known to her family as Gigi, who she found unresponsive and blue.

news.sky.com

Just read that myself. The defence is equally as bizarre as Marten's - that the horrible heifer in question who swaddled a 9 month old so tight she couldn't move then strapped her down hard to a fucking bean bag face down and then covered her with a fucking blanket over her head, then ignored the baby's cries and clear distress until she was dead - is somehow innocent because she had never had a complaint before or presumably, been caught red-handed causing a child to suffocate to death. She like anyone in her field and really, most normal people these days, would know every last one of those actions - swaddling ultra tight, placing face down to sleep, face down on a soft surface, covered head - was dangerous as hell and together were quickly and clearly lethal.

I hope she ends up a permanent punchbag in Bronzefield. Got no time for people who take their moods out on the vulnerable, and it's clearly what it was according to witnesses; she had a beef with that baby for crying a lot (or the parents is my guess) for some reason and decided to torture her a bit to cheer herself up, but whoops! Ended with her dead.

I suspect she's done a LOT of this type of shit before, only her ability to hide her actions from the parents due to babies not being able to tell on you, and her luck in not killing ran out and here we are.

Same with Marten - she managed not to kill a child before, but likely only because the authorities got the kids away from her. Left to her own stupidity and obvious lack of instincts and knowledge, she's got an underdressed baby sat in her own piss and shit and dead from something, probably asphysxia, within a matter of a few weeks.

I hope the jury crucify her. Her living kids are better off away from the mad mare anyway.

 

[Emsie]

My comment objecting to absence because of a pre-booked holiday (if in fact this is the case?) was mainly because this trial is unfinished business and surely the jury need to prioritise reaching a verdict for Victoria's sake? Jury service obligations should come first in my opinion. Holidays can be rebooked but a baby's life can't.

If it's planned surgery then that's a different matter but that would have been known in advance.

This is a daft comment. The jury can't just put their life on hold. I wouldn't be giving up my holiday because the court cannot coordinate itself. The court system is inefficient at best. Whilst you might not think a holiday is important it could be someone's last holiday with a family member. Or someone's first holiday with their children. A wedding. Anything.

 

[Dobbythehouseelf]

And newborns get through a lot of nappies, they need changing frequently as their skin is so delicate. They would have needed a stack of them.

Yep. I am over any defence of CM. I have stated previously, my children would have cared for that little baby better than her own mother. That isn't hyperbole, they really would. Anyone with a brain knows you need to keep babies warm, clean and fed. Never mind a grown adult who had children previously.

Her being described as a lioness who wanted to protect her cubs is a disgusting mockery of every mother who has struggled through sleepless nights, colic, illnesses, grief, shitty husbands... and relentlessly loved and cared for their children through it all.

 

[InchSchlong]

Wow I've known social workers and a lot of them are thick and lacking in any common sense.

How many exactly?
Because I hold a social work degree, (not practising) the vast majority of friends are social workers and none of them are thick or lack common sense. They are all just burnt out, trying to work in incredibly hostile environments with very little financial or practical support.

 

[Axatogrind]

Channelling his pseudo Elton John..Quite the showman is our Mr Little..

The mythical car seat burned out long before the placenta ever did

 

[Bleekemolen]

Just back... I can confirm that the claw clip did make an appearance along with the plum scarf, cream blouse and black trousers...

Both her and MG constantly writing notes to each other. Neither appeared furious at anything that was said. I would have had absolute shame shivers had I been sitting there listening to everything. She yawned a lot...

Just back at office now, but will report back more when I get home. Grabbed a coffee from Tattle on my way back
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[Dobbythehouseelf]

Conversely, I think what they have done is akin to murder. She has had several children. She knows they require milk, warmth, nappies and a clean environment. They did not provide that. If you left a new born with my 9 year old, they would survive longer than Victoria did.

I hope they go to prison for a very long time.

 

[lola_90]

Jury told to return in two weeks in baby death trial

Updates as jury continues deliberations in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial.

www.theargus.co.uk

Ridiculous,jurors have been told to pause deliberations till the 20th of May

 

[MrsDimSum]

Donald has been taking a leaf out of Connie's book prior to his own court appearance today...

Is he wearing a claw clip?
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[Ray_of_Sunshine]

It’s probably quite a small detail in the grand scheme of things but something that gets to me the most is how they left her in her own shit once she’d passed. I know people have sympathised with them wanting to “keep her” as a reason for why they carried her around for so long (in a bag for life with rubbish strewn on top of her, aside). If they were that precious why didn’t they change her and wrap her up give her a bit of dignity. And you think well perhaps they didn’t have anything to hand to clean her with but they managed to buy a bag of food supplies. A cheap pack of wipes is what? £1 max. They no more loved her in death than when she was alive it’s so tragic.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

My comment objecting to absence because of a pre-booked holiday (if in fact this is the case?) was mainly because this trial is unfinished business and surely the jury need to prioritise reaching a verdict for Victoria's sake? Jury service obligations should come first in my opinion. Holidays can be rebooked but a baby's life can't.

If it's planned surgery then that's a different matter but that would have been known in advance.

The holiday was probably known in advance too, the trial was meant to finish in March. The court should have given a more realistic time frame for the trial and then they’d have excluded people with commitments in May. People can’t put their lives on hold infinitely for the trial, especially not when several of the delay days appeared to be down to the judge having other commitments! They should schedule time more accurately and make sure they assign a judge who isn’t going to have to only be able to turn up at 1/2pm some days.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Well that’s what I’m asking. Do you mean furious and if so what does that actually mean/ look like? Have you been storming around angry and shouty for the last 12 weeks? Are you just furious briefly when you stop to think about it?

It just seems a strange description for something you have no involvement or influence on. Furious is quite an active emotion I think, I’m interested in what you really mean by that.

Asking others to explain the words they use feels a little pointless IMO. It’s very possible that people have a different range of emotions and feelings, which won’t always match with someone else’s feelings or choice of wording. And that’s okay.

 

[whitershadeofpale]

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I think we’re edging close to a mistrial now.

 

[DianaBanana]

No claw clip today?

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I'm glad he's said what we've all been thinking.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

This pisses me off.

He was there too. He’s responsible too. He’s on trial too!

 

[Dobbythehouseelf]

The best thing about tattle is that everyone can say their bit, and no one shouts each other down. Disagreeing doesn't have to be disrespectful.

I think for the vast majority of people, the guilt and turmoil of knowing they had caused their child's death would be a punishment in itself. However, I haven't seen much evidence suggesting they feel any remorse.

 

[Mrsell]

Well that’s what I’m asking. Do you mean furious and if so what does that actually mean/ look like? Have you been storming around angry and shouty for the last 12 weeks? Are you just furious briefly when you stop to think about it?

It just seems a strange description for something you have no involvement or influence on. Furious is quite an active emotion I think, I’m interested in what you really mean by that.

It feels a little like you are being unnecessarily argumentative tbh. The whole case makes me feel furious but I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why or how that presents itself. It's a highly emotive situation and the pointless loss of a child's life because of reckless, selfish, narcissistic parents does make me angry. I was severely neglected as a child so I guess for me it's quite close to home. For me I show that fury by discussing it on here, with my partner and generally saying 'fucking bastards' out loud when I hear them mentioned on the news! I'm not a solicitor and have no need really to explain myself but hopefully I have satisfied your interest. Your post feels a bit pass -agg but in case I'm wrong and you're genuinely just interested I hope that puts it to bed.