Children or No Children?

[Caffeine Fiend]

The booking thing is a bit of foolish decision on airlines part. Kids under a certain age MUST be sat with an adult who is willing to be responsible for them.

Seat booking should either be free for all or compulsory for everyone

If guidance states kids under a certain age need to be with a parent. If the airline dont enforce the pre booking knowing there is a 2 year old then more fool them.

I also dont agree someone who has paid should be forced to move. Thats up to the airline to juggle the folk who havent paid

 

[LaBlonde]

Maybe we should chile with the insults on here guys otherwise this thread is gonna get shut down and I think it’s a really interesting topic

exactly i’ve been enjoying reading it - it’s a shame that the last page has gone into this kind of swiping. now the cat thing has finally been mentioned can we move on

it’s a topic without a thread and with a group who never get to converse. it’s a really valuable discussion and we’re all better than these little digs.

 

[Elle]

I was always very on the fence about whether on not I wanted to have children, verging on the side of not.

After years of struggling with eating disorders I was also worried about the damage that I'd done to my body and secretly suspected I might struggle to get pregnant.

I didn't plan to get pregnant and I recognise that many would consider 'accidentally' becoming pregnant lucky and I would like to acknowledge that. In some ways I'm glad the decision was 'made' for me (for a myriad of personal reasons abortion wasn't an option for me) as I love my child more than anything.

However, being a parent (and particularly a mother, I think) is NO JOKE. Pregnancy did a number on me mentally and physically and I really struggled with the transition from being admittedly selfish and completely free to having a child.

Each stage of parenting comes with its own unique set of challenges and just when you think you might have mastered it there is an unexpected sharp turn and more chaos!

I love being a mum but I'd be lying if I said I didn't sometimes miss aspects of my 'old' life.

I really want to again acknowledge my privilege in becoming pregnant and my heart goes out to anyone here struggling with fertility issues or other struggles.

I explicitly want to say that I hope nothing I've written here offends anyone. That is certainly not my intention. I just wanted to share my personal experience. I think it's a really interesting topic.

Of course, concerns regarding having children with disabilities and the struggles they may encounter are completely valid. I worked with a lady who had her first child at 40 and second at 41. They were both completely healthy but, boy, she must have been exhausted.

It does seem like the tide is perhaps changing and 'typical', outdated expectations for women - marriage, children, get in the kitchen are being challenged more and more. People should be able to have complete autonomy over their own bodies and the decision of whether or not to have children. Sadly, this is not always the case. Familial and societal pressures can be really toxic and the decision can be challenging enough without those external pressures.

Ps kids are super annoying.

Pps peace and love.

 

[LaBlonde]

Honestly when I was child free I found a huge pressure from society to be doing more with my time. Why wasn't I travelling the world, why wasn't I doing further education, why wasn't I more involved in clubs.... I think no matter what age or stage you are at, societal pressures will always be there. You just gotta live your own life. Nobody has lived a life where they have done everything perfectly at the perfect age.

this! your BiB is really the final point i think. we can only live our lives in a way that fulfils us and makes us happy, no one else.

i do find it annoying when childfree articles are sometimes like “i used all my free time to paint watercolours and rescue elephants in thailand” or whatever - i just want a quiet life

 

[Belle Amie]

No, it wasn’t aimed at your post.


I’m ‘not very balanced’ but I’ve clearly been posting things in support of mothers?

This is coming across as incredibly defensive and kind of proves all of my points, so I won’t engage with it.

I don’t think I’ve seen a supportive comment from you on here, you’ve called mums toxic against each other, you’ve called children screeching rats and you’ve said mums who say their children fulfill their lives are bitter but sure Jan supportive.

You’re trying to bait parents and have done a good job of it here so I’ll ignore you.
Enjoy your lie ins, cats and paid for plane seats and I’ll enjoy my life watching my son become a kind member of society who accepts everyone including those with screeching rats and without.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I think the disabilities discussion is a really interesting tbf. I saw a tiktoker recently who had multiple children, 2 of which were suffering with cystic fibrosis. I just thought it was really shocking, like if you know that you and your husband are both carriers of the gene because you have already produced a kid with CF, why tf would you then have another one? You can have prenatal testing if you are both carriers to find out if your baby is homozygous as well, yet instead they chose to just go ahead and have another little boy fully knowing he will suffer a short and very painful life.
I myself am a cystic fibrosis gene carrier (it’s recessive so you need two copies in order to have the disease and luckily my partner doesn’t have it so we have no chance of having a CF baby anyway), however you can still suffer symptoms of CF even if you’re just a carrier. Luckily I haven’t experienced any symptoms but my mum has also got the gene and suffers with both respiratory issues and repeated pancreatitis. I would personally feel really guilty if I knowingly passed the gene onto my kid and they ended up suffering because of it.

That’s just one example though of a particularly horrible and incurable genetic disease, however I find some of the discussion (which at times borders on eugenics) around not wanting kids with something like down syndrome or autism really quite disturbing and scary.

 

[ThePidge]

some of the posts have fully crossed the line tbh, and i say that as a poster there (the comments about women’s bodies and children’s hobbies in particular). it also doesn’t help when it all descends into taking swipes for no reason.

as i said above, both sides have been needlessly cruel to each other, especially here sadly (and again i include myself in this as being snarky back, mainly when people start sniping about being alone in old age, the plants not buying you mother’s day cards etc), when i think we could probably have a better and more open discussion if we actually engaged with each other on an equal level. but maybe it’s too late, which is a shame.

Parents aren’t allowed on the thread to join in on any banter/suggestions (holidays etc.), so I don’t think there is a chance to have an open or equal discussion there, which is a shame, you’re absolutely right!

Having said that, I do think there should be a place for such extreme views and they should just stay there

I think this thread is really nice and I’m always happy to discuss experiences and listen to others- so it’s nice this has opened up for both sides so I suppose we can have the discussion here!

But surely, being childfree because you don’t want your body to change, and being child free because you know you could not handle raising a child with disabilities, are valid reasons to stay childfree? Like, some people who have had eating disorders may not be able to cope with the body changes that come with carrying a child. Some people have a genuine fear of pregnancy and breastfeeding. Not to defend everything that’s said on there, but I think the childfree by choice thread gives people an anonymous outlet to express their opinions, which in my opinion is a good thing

All valid reasons absolutely. But sadly how you’ve worded it here, isn’t put across the same way on that thread (not all commenters, but some!).

I think some of the commenters don’t realise some disabilities aren’t noticed until after birth!

 

[jackolantern]

this is a very kind and empathetic post - thank you

i think i’ve made my peace with it a little: there are aspects of having children that seem wonderful (like you say!) and there is, i guess, sadness that i will never have that but i think i also know it maybe wouldn’t be like that for me. if that makes sense! i would hate to have one in the hope i would surprise myself and then to realise it was going exactly as i thought it would.

i’ve genuinely enjoyed reading you ladies’ posts here! like i said upthread, i think we can offer value to each other (if from polar opposite sides) and i appreciate the gentleness of your response to me. i know it hasn’t always been earnt!
---


i wish i could say this was true but, in my real life, i have had (and continue to have) a huge amount of comments about it. thankfully getting less as i get older!

People comment regardless though honestly, you can never get it right. No kids, too many kids, keep trying for a boy, keep trying for a girl, nursery, no nursery, BF or bottle etc. If not this then everything else in your life. It’s your life and your choice, you who would have to be pregnant, give birth and care for the child, so no one else’s opinion matters (other than your partner obvs lol). Don’t worry yourself with what anyone else has to say because even if they agreed, you’d just do something else they scorned at, it’s human nature.

 

[LaBlonde]

Personally I would quite like kids and so would my husband (when we’re a bit older and more financially stable) however I’ve always found the stance taken by many on the ‘child free by choice’ pages (never read the one on this particular site tbf so can’t comment on that) a bit misogynistic and off putting.

i can only speak for the one here (which i know you’re not!) and have never had that experience there. i sorta find the opposite is true - in that i am always told that, as childfree woman, i am not doing what a woman is supposed to do or what the point of my existence should be (ie to raise a child), in particular with some experiences i’m having in my workplace right now. our cfbc thread has been a huge support to me through that.

i suppose misogyny works all ways though and i can definitely see that both sides play the card occasionally. the militant factions on both viewpoints cross the line sometimes.

 

[Millyhex]

But surely, being childfree because you don’t want your body to change, and being child free because you know you could not handle raising a child with disabilities, are valid reasons to stay childfree? Like, some people who have had eating disorders may not be able to cope with the body changes that come with carrying a child. Some people have a genuine fear of pregnancy and breastfeeding. Not to defend everything that’s said on there, but I think the childfree by choice thread gives people an anonymous outlet to express their opinions, which in my opinion is a good thing

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

I just wanted to say CF that you always state what I'm thinking in a much more eloquent way. Your words of wisdom are very much appreciated.

This is so lovely I appreciate it.

I think your kids are slightly younger than mine and seriously the best times are yet to come. I feel like I enjoy my children so much more with every passing year. Dont get me wrong with age comes challenges but I love that they can communicate well and we do lots of things together. I had my eldest quite young and I really treasure our relationship now. Drives me crazy most days but I love what we have.

Also on another note I am a child in a parent/child dynamic and I love the adult relationship I have with my father. He is my best friend, I love spending time with him. My goal is to be that parent

 

[ThePidge]

In my experience though people with kids tend to act like you just don’t understand life at all if you’ve not got your own and it’s very condescending.

I think something the CBFC thread gets right is acknowledging that it’s actually a really unhelpful narrative from parents that you don’t know love until you’ve been a parent, you don’t know anything like it til you’ve been a parent, blah blah blah, as if your life is empty without it. IMO the ‘you don’t know anything like it’ gatekeeping of understanding basic human emotions such as love just makes people on the fence massively roll their eyes and get put further off. Although admittedly as an outsider its often easy to realise that a lot of the time it comes from a place of bitterness and/or trying to convince themselves that they’re actually happy with their decision either that or their lives really were properly shit before, so much so that having someone literally shitting on them is an improvement

But it’s still something people without children hear all the time, this idea that you’re not fulfilled without it, whereas having children is still seen as the ‘norm’. A lot of the things you mention about BF or non BF or whatever seems to be from mums tearing other mums apart to feel better about themselves (at least I assume? It seems toxic anyway), other people literally couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

I think it’s an odd one, because it’s like I said in my initial post, I always thought my heart was full until my little one came along and the love I have for her, it’s weird type of protectiveness kind of love where you’d take a bullet for them and feel a bursting sensation of pride when they hit a milestone, and it makes you feel a bit sick (my pre child self is doing the gag actions right now). But again, this is what happens hormones, everything bloody changes and it’s an immense sensation- it’s actually overwhelming at times.

I now cry at adverts, 24 hours in A&E and I was not a crier- so maybe it’s a hormonal thing?

I’m not here to say that it can’t be felt with other things either, but I’ve not experienced it with anything else yet so I can’t comment any further than that.

No one’s feelings towards things, people etc. are invalid though. I want to make that clear.

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

- not to mention the idea that you’re disappointing parents and other family members, or all the condescending comments on how you spend your free time (or is that one just me ) or how nothing really matters until you have one.

in terms of being on the fence, as per this thread, i don’t think it’s helpful questioning. someone in the middle might easily feel pressured into a decision that isn’t truly want they want because we are told so frequently that we should want it. i fully get the original point that you can never win either way, and that’s valid, but the difference with being cfbc is that you’re going against something that is still widely believed to be the “norm”. which is i guess when the questions get to be different and more pointed.

for me, coupled with the aforementioned anxiety, this only upsets me further because it makes me feel “other” and that i’m not feeling emotions i should be.

---


this is an amazing analogy. it’s basically “well i had a drink and it was the best thing ever, why don’t you have one too? you’re going to be so bored if you don’t”. except in this case you end up holding the drink permanently and the person who made you drink it is like: pfft not my problem you’ve got it now.

Yes. Youre dying with a lifelong hangover and the person is like 'oh well I dont have one, enjoy that'

just no.

Would you nag a vegetarian to eat meat. No. Leave people alone.

 

[Codiaeum]

Great thread!

For years, I didn't want children and neither did my partner. We both are happy as we are and I just haven't felt the urge to have them. As in, I wouldn't mind having one, if I did find myself pregnant unexpectedly, I would keep it and likely would be just as happy with our life as without one. That alone never seemed "sufficient" for me to have children. Not actively not wanting something doesn't seem fair for such a huge choice.

Another reason is my job. I work in tech, it's pretty intense and I honestly fear that I couldn't get back in after taking time off. My previous job was so intense that I don't see how I could have had a kid with it, the hours were insane and short notice, and my partner's wasn't much better. I don't think I would have had the headspace I need for both a kid and the job. I've switched jobs about half a year ago and the working hours are much more sensible. Since then the thought of "maybe" as been creeping up on me. I've female colleagues in the same position with kids who are able to have a job and a family, most of them also not living close to relatives. I didn't have that before, it was all male colleagues. They had plenty of children, but they also had partners either staying at home or in part-time work.
I'm 33. There's not a huge amount of time left to answer this question, especially if isn't happening fast for us if we decide to have children. We live away from the potential grandparents and any other family. I currently think that if I had a child, I would like to go back to work, yet I know that minimally my partner's family would not be supportive at all of that choice, as "a mother is supposed to watch them" (hypocrite, she worked in a kindergarten!). I fear my partner kind of thinks the same, even though I've gently tried to explain that my career means not going back after a year or two means no job to go back to at all, the industry moves too fast. It's just the way he has been socialized. My mum also stayed at home with us until my younger sis was ~10, but she went back after that. MIL only went into some weird part-time stuff after her youngest left home at 17!

I'm afraid of bringing up the subject with my partner, tbh. He just started self-employment and while we're well off financially, it just also doesn't seem to be a good time if we decided to go for it now. There's so much else I want, I'd love to buy a house, ideally closer to our families and all that and it just doesn't seem doable.

 

[confusedlady]

I’m going to put my two pence in, but I was child free by choice until into my 30’s. I was adamant I didn’t want children (I had nieces and nephews to fill that void) and when I met my husband, the feeling to have a family and seeing others started to make me question my choices- which I think was a big red flag. I’m not maternal in the slightest and this was something that massively worried me too.

I’m very fortunate to say that I’m well travelled, got to where I want in my career, yet my husband and I still felt something was missing- We became bored of lying in, going for walks, drinking/nights out and doing the regular stuff and came to realise that we wanted a family.

I’m not going to stand on my soapbox and say “you don’t know what you’re missing”, as there are days where I’m tested and I think “good grief, give me those lie ins back” but it’s the most fulfilling thing I’ve ever done and I found out I am actually very maternal. It’s crazy how a little person just comes into your world when you think your heart is already full (maybe it was the part of me that I never knew was missing), but I wouldn't want to be in a life without her. Life really does change and for me, luckily it was for the better!

the saying is true- it’s different when it’s your own. I think you really have to think about these things and give it time (I appreciate time isn’t on everyone’s side). but the biggest things for me were, questioning my choices, did I want to remain at the point I was at and did I want to get to a point where it was all too late? (Early menopause runs in my family, so time was a bit of a worry for me!).

Follow your heart whether it be with or without children, only you and your partner know what will make you truly happy…

this is amazing and i'm so glad you've found where your family is meant to be! i am finding currently on social media there was a big swing from happy parent content to childfree content and i've constantly been surrounded by how absolutely miserable being a parent is and it's really affecting my decision when i know it shouldn't.

i do think i'm in the same boat where i am enjoying life for what it is right now but i don't know if this is my forever! so thank you for your amazing words.

 

[CallMeHollywood]

People gave up a long time ago asking when I was going to have children We’re now trying with quiet trepidation as we’re in a great place financially and mentally. I’m 36, he’s 43 and we’re anticipating it not to happen.

I have friends who are incredible parents, and some who are genuinely awful and it shocks me. I also have a friend who decided to have a child after much discussion and then ended up with a baby with severe disabilities and had to give up her job to look after a child that, honestly, does nothing and won’t ever.

Not everything is roses, and that’s important to remember when deciding.

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

Another thing to add as a parent who is in therapy for childhood trauma.

A baby doesnt ask to be born, a child deserves the same respect as an adult. If you expect a child to just fit in to your life, do as they are told and be quiet its probably not the right decision for you.

A child deserves free will and body autonomy as much as an adult does. They are not little robots that cannot be programmed to do exactly what we say when we say it (outwith instructions for their immediate safety)

The way I see some people treat their kids is horrible.

I will never shy away from the fact that being a parent is by far the hardest thing Ive ever embarked upon but it doesnt make me God in their life. I am the least assertive person ever as an adult and alot of it stems from childhood.

 

[LaBlonde]

I think the disabilities discussion is a really interesting tbf. I saw a tiktoker recently who had multiple children, 2 of which were suffering with cystic fibrosis. I just thought it was really shocking, like if you know that you and your husband are both carriers of the gene because you have already produced a kid with CF, why tf would you then have another one? You can have prenatal testing if you are both carriers to find out if your baby is homozygous as well, yet instead they chose to just go ahead and have another little boy fully knowing he will suffer a short and very painful life.
I myself am a cystic fibrosis gene carrier (it’s recessive so you need two copies in order to have the disease and luckily my partner doesn’t have it so we have no chance of having a CF baby anyway), however you can still suffer symptoms of CF even if you’re just a carrier. Luckily I haven’t experienced any symptoms but my mum has also got the gene and suffers with both respiratory issues and repeated pancreatitis. I would personally feel really guilty if I knowingly passed the gene onto my kid and they ended up suffering because of it.

That’s just one example though of a particularly horrible and incurable genetic disease, however I find some of the discussion (which at times borders on eugenics) around not wanting kids with something like down syndrome or autism really quite disturbing and scary.

i think, for me personally, it’s all of this and also a deep fear of what would happen to that child if/when i pass away (in terms of more severe or aggressive diseases that come with extreme needs for the child). i have elderly neighbours with one son going through this right now and it breaks my heart to watch them come to the realisation that they can no longer care for him as they used to and that he can’t realistically continue living with them. like you said, it is also considering the child’s quality of life in some cases.

 

[LaBlonde]

In my experience though people with kids tend to act like you just don’t understand life at all if you’ve not got your own and it’s very condescending.

I think something the CBFC thread gets right is acknowledging that it’s actually a really unhelpful narrative from parents that you don’t know love until you’ve been a parent, you don’t know anything like it til you’ve been a parent, blah blah blah, as if your life is empty without it. IMO the ‘you don’t know anything like it’ gatekeeping of understanding basic human emotions such as love just makes people on the fence massively roll their eyes and get put further off. Although admittedly as an outsider its often easy to realise that a lot of the time it comes from a place of bitterness and/or trying to convince themselves that they’re actually happy with their decision either that or their lives really were properly shit before, so much so that having someone literally shitting on them is an improvement

But it’s still something people without children hear all the time, this idea that you’re not fulfilled without it, whereas having children is still seen as the ‘norm’. A lot of the things you mention about BF or non BF or whatever seems to be from mums tearing other mums apart to feel better about themselves (at least I assume? It seems toxic anyway), other people literally couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

- not to mention the idea that you’re disappointing parents and other family members, or all the condescending comments on how you spend your free time (or is that one just me ) or how nothing really matters until you have one.

in terms of being on the fence, as per this thread, i don’t think it’s helpful questioning. someone in the middle might easily feel pressured into a decision that isn’t truly want they want because we are told so frequently that we should want it. i fully get the original point that you can never win either way, and that’s valid, but the difference with being cfbc is that you’re going against something that is still widely believed to be the “norm”. which is i guess when the questions get to be different and more pointed.

for me, coupled with the aforementioned anxiety, this only upsets me further because it makes me feel “other” and that i’m not feeling emotions i should be.

---

I commented on the CFBC thread before and realised it probably isnt the place for me but I commented that people should be free to choose a CF life and not be questioned by people or judged. Its like someone choosing to be alcohol free, its not ok to say 'if you just tried it youd like it' 'youre missing out so much by not having a drink' 'I drink alcohol and it makes social events so much better for me' none of those are ok so why does it make it ok when it comes to kids.

If you enjoy it so much go do it and enjoy it. Dont force your life choices on others

this is an amazing analogy. it’s basically “well i had a drink and it was the best thing ever, why don’t you have one too? you’re going to be so bored if you don’t”. except in this case you end up holding the drink permanently and the person who made you drink it is like: pfft not my problem you’ve got it now.

 

[LaBlonde]

Also there is *plenty* of judgement on parenting choices from people who don't even have kids. It's feral actually. Again, everyone is entitled to an opinion but it's another one of those things that unless you have experienced it, you can never really get it. I'm not saying being a parent is some exclusive club that you don't get a say on if you aren't in it, but unfortunately it really is true that it's one of those things you cannot fully grasp until you've lived it, so people who haven't being critical of how you do it really does fuck you off.

It's a shame we can't all just live our lives making our own choices and letting others make theirs but then I guess none of us would be on Tattle if we could would we?

i think this is true on both sides in all honesty, we’re both part of “clubs” that we are protective of and that we don’t always understand the alternate. i agree that people being critical fucks you off, because it fucks me off too the only time i’ve ever commented on someone’s parenting is when their child threw pasta in my lap at a restaurant (long story), beyond that i wouldn’t dream of it. i don’t have children so how tf would i know how to look after them?!

i equally agree that the love you have for a child is life changing and i will never experience it (obviously) but the fact that i will never experience it doesn’t make my life unfulfilling in the way that it always implied. especially considering the reasons why i am childfree.

it’s a real shame that a thread that i think could have been useful for everyone (including those on the fence) has so quickly descended into swiping tbh. from both sides. i’m grateful for the chance to chat to you all and am thankful for the patience shown to me! but it always seems to become tribal and defensive.

like you say; we wouldn’t be on tattle otherwise though
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People gave up a long time ago asking when I was going to have children We’re now trying with quiet trepidation as we’re in a great place financially and mentally. I’m 36, he’s 43 and we’re anticipating it not to happen.

I have friends who are incredible parents, and some who are genuinely awful and it shocks me. I also have a friend who decided to have a child after much discussion and then ended up with a baby with severe disabilities and had to give up her job to look after a child that, honestly, does nothing and won’t ever.

Not everything is roses, and that’s important to remember when deciding.

i am sending you as much love (and good wishes) possible i know from others that trying for a baby can be tough x