Children or No Children?

[Smca53]

People comment regardless though honestly, you can never get it right. No kids, too many kids, keep trying for a boy, keep trying for a girl, nursery, no nursery, BF or bottle etc. If not this then everything else in your life. It’s your life and your choice, you who would have to be pregnant, give birth and care for the child, so no one else’s opinion matters (other than your partner obvs lol). Don’t worry yourself with what anyone else has to say because even if they agreed, you’d just do something else they scorned at, it’s human nature.

In my experience though people with kids tend to act like you just don’t understand life at all if you’ve not got your own and it’s very condescending.

I think something the CBFC thread gets right is acknowledging that it’s actually a really unhelpful narrative from parents that you don’t know love until you’ve been a parent, you don’t know anything like it til you’ve been a parent, blah blah blah, as if your life is empty without it. IMO the ‘you don’t know anything like it’ gatekeeping of understanding basic human emotions such as love just makes people on the fence massively roll their eyes and get put further off. Although admittedly as an outsider its often easy to realise that a lot of the time it comes from a place of bitterness and/or trying to convince themselves that they’re actually happy with their decision either that or their lives really were properly shit before, so much so that having someone literally shitting on them is an improvement

But it’s still something people without children hear all the time, this idea that you’re not fulfilled without it, whereas having children is still seen as the ‘norm’. A lot of the things you mention about BF or non BF or whatever seems to be from mums tearing other mums apart to feel better about themselves (at least I assume? It seems toxic anyway), other people literally couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

 

[Mamacita]

My 2-cents on this as someone who didn't know they wanted kids until they had one!

I'm in my 30s, the vast majority of my friends do not have children (yet or have decided not)

I was toying with this children or no children thing for years in my head. I didn't know if I was too selfish to have them, I hated the typical mother that is described on the Child Free by Choice page and did not want to become a person who couldn't talk about anything other than my children.

A while ago I found out I was pregnant, partner was immediately ecstatic about it, and after a few days I realised I was too! I loved being pregnant (although don't miss it) and I love being a mother. I still have a "good life" as I have a good support network for child minding whenever we want to do things. My child is less than a year old and we've done weekends away, nights out, weddings, hens/stags. I don't feel like I've compromised much of my before child life, other than things require a slight bit more planning. (I appreciate that wouldn't be the case for everyone). ETA here obviously at least 95% of my time is spent with my child

I was adamant I wanted to still be a woman and not transform into a mother that had no sense of self, if that makes sense. There are obviously very hard days but I had those days pre-child too!

That's good to hear. Glad to see this thread as I definitely am on the fence and to be honest,reading the childfree thread, does put me more in the 'no children' camp. The thing is, it is difficult to hear different perspectives, as the threads for people with children either focus on complaining about how hard it is and the different issues with pregnancy and then parenthood, which really doesn't sell it and where people do say positive things it's often 'yes I'm completely exhausted, but it's so worth it', without talking about practical considerations and balanced view. Online it seems very much "having children is awful" Vs "having children is the only worthwhile thing in life"

 

[Meg1912]

Up until I met my husband, I had never really thought about whether I'd want to try and have a baby as I'd always fallen for idiots. I just thought it might not be in the cards for me and quite honestly, I was okay with that! My parents really love children and I have an older sister who also loves children, so always assumed she'd have children, but she didn't.
I met the man of my dreams a few years ago when I was 35 and completely fell for him. We got engaged a few months later and discussed having children. We said we'd start trying once we got married. But then so many things happened (covid, my father had cancer, his family made our lives a living hell) and it's like I became a completely different person. I'm now 38 and to say the clock is ticking is an understatement.
Everything about children annoy me and I feel so terrible saying this. The way they scream, throw tantrums, absolutely everything. When I see a baby it doesn't make me want to try to have one and at the end of the day I feel relieved I don't have a child. I suffer from severe headaches, sometimes migraines and the thought of having a screaming child at home makes my skin crawl. My husband is amazing with children, they love him! He would love to have children, but we've discussed how I feel and he completely understands and respects it's not something we can try if I don't feel 200% sure, but I do feel bad for him.
Sometimes I do wonder if I'd feel differently about my child and he/she wouldn't annoy me. It sucks that us women have age against us.

 

[ThePidge]

this is amazing and i'm so glad you've found where your family is meant to be! i am finding currently on social media there was a big swing from happy parent content to childfree content and i've constantly been surrounded by how absolutely miserable being a parent is and it's really affecting my decision when i know it shouldn't.

i do think i'm in the same boat where i am enjoying life for what it is right now but i don't know if this is my forever! so thank you for your amazing words.

Thank you , i think social media is all smoke and mirrors… look at the life changing products that are constantly advertised but are not on the shelves in stores!

I was constantly swinging for that year before we decided to actually start trying and even when I was pregnant, I was totally in denial of all the change that was coming and still thinking “is this right?”… I think you’re never going to be truly ready as it’s such a big thing and it’s fear of the unknown

Just continue to enjoy life. There’s nothing wrong with being on the fence and know that mine wasn’t an overnight decision and neither should yours- you’ll know when you know I think everything always fall into place!

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

Im not childfree, I have 2 children and it is by far the hardest part of my life. I dont regret having them, I'd not change the fact I had them. The older they get the more I enjoy being a parent. I love that they are little people/young adults now and we can enjoy things together. I really struggled with babyhood.

I am crushed by the weight of others expectations though, that my children should just 'behave' and that their behaviour is a direct correlation to my input as a parent.

If you have time on your side and youre undecided them definitely take the time to try and decide.

I can completely see why people would choose to stay childfree. Looks fab to me, despite the fact I wouldnt change my decision.

I do keep my kids separate from my childfree friends. I wouldnt dream of them tagging along for a lunch out or whatever. absolutely not.


Edit - just saw the disability discussion. I have one neuro diverse child and it is challenging every single day. Very stressful.

 

[Usagisakura90]

I'm not childfree, I have one child, who I love and do not regret whatsoever.

But if someone could go back and tell me 11 years ago how I'd end up a single mum by the time they were 1, and basically a single mum to a baby and him until I left, I'd probably have had more sense than being able to be emotionally blackmailed into having a child at 21.

My child is amazing, but it's a struggle with their learning difficulties and coparenting and essentially always being the bad guy, the one who has to pay for everything, the one who makes sure homework is done etc, whilst the other parent is the fun parent four days a month and having to force my child to go there against their will for fear of family court again.

I suppose my beef isn't with having a child, it's with what comes with having a child with another person. And I can honestly say I am never reproducing with another person again.

 

[LaBlonde]

That's what I mean though! It is hard to avoid the extreme views because that's mostly what people tend to share online. Not many people will go online and talk about them having a good balanced day with their child. They will go on to either moan about or talk about how much they love their child

Also all this is such a controversial topic for people that it brings a lot of clicks and comments. I've noticed so many articles recently about related things, e.g.:

- about people refusing to give up their plane seat for a child
- about rebel Wilson going to a party a week after her child was born
- women going back to work quickly or never going back to work after having a child

Etc. Etc. It all works even more to divide everyone and sounds like everyone has an opinion about what people do regarding children. So much pressure from everywhere

fully agree with all of this and i also have always thought (in amongst the two extreme viewpoints) the people who are childfree not by choice (be it by circumstance, timing, fertility issues etc) are always forgotten. i have a friend who always gets lumped into the childfree conversation with me, but she is very much not childfree by choice. she just never met a man to settle down with and could not afford to go it alone. i always feel awful when people try and engage with her on the same level that they do with me because our circumstances are very much not the same even if they look like they are.

like you say, women can’t win any way. have a child, don’t have a child, have too many children, have an only child, have all boys are you trying for a girl etc etc. society has a lot to answer for!

 

[Belle Amie]

In my experience though people with kids tend to act like you just don’t understand life at all if you’ve not got your own and it’s very condescending.

I think something the CBFC thread gets right is acknowledging that it’s actually a really unhelpful narrative from parents that you don’t know love until you’ve been a parent, you don’t know anything like it til you’ve been a parent, blah blah blah, as if your life is empty without it. IMO the ‘you don’t know anything like it’ gatekeeping of understanding basic human emotions such as love just makes people on the fence massively roll their eyes and get put further off. Although admittedly as an outsider its often easy to realise that a lot of the time it comes from a place of bitterness and/or trying to convince themselves that they’re actually happy with their decision either that or their lives really were properly shit before, so much so that having someone literally shitting on them is an improvement

But it’s still something people without children hear all the time, this idea that you’re not fulfilled without it, whereas having children is still seen as the ‘norm’. A lot of the things you mention about BF or non BF or whatever seems to be from mums tearing other mums apart to feel better about themselves (at least I assume? It seems toxic anyway), other people literally couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

And people who are child free act like those with kids can never have fun just them and their partner again or can never have a drink or a lie in again. When that’s not the case.

Again the breastfeeding comments have come from a thread on this site and they were posted to another site so you can’t sit there and say it comes from mums and it’s mums being toxic when it isn’t. You seem to think those with children are judging you personally when it’s not the case, you don’t want to have a child we get it
Your comments aren’t very balanced when everyone else here seems to be seeing the other side.

Do I sometimes think god how easy was life before having a baby taking 1 minute to get out of the house rather than 5 yes but seeing
someone grow and develop and know you had a hand in that is rewarding, similar to those who become a teacher.
If you had an actual conversation with a parent rather than slagging them off you’d realise there’s more to talk about than their kids and you might have something in common.

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

In my experience though people with kids tend to act like you just don’t understand life at all if you’ve not got your own and it’s very condescending.

I think something the CBFC thread gets right is acknowledging that it’s actually a really unhelpful narrative from parents that you don’t know love until you’ve been a parent, you don’t know anything like it til you’ve been a parent, blah blah blah, as if your life is empty without it. IMO the ‘you don’t know anything like it’ gatekeeping of understanding basic human emotions such as love just makes people on the fence massively roll their eyes and get put further off. Although admittedly as an outsider its often easy to realise that a lot of the time it comes from a place of bitterness and/or trying to convince themselves that they’re actually happy with their decision either that or their lives really were properly shit before, so much so that having someone literally shitting on them is an improvement

But it’s still something people without children hear all the time, this idea that you’re not fulfilled without it, whereas having children is still seen as the ‘norm’. A lot of the things you mention about BF or non BF or whatever seems to be from mums tearing other mums apart to feel better about themselves (at least I assume? It seems toxic anyway), other people literally couldn’t give a shit about any of that.

I agree with all of this as a parent. Life is as fulfilling as you make it. Having children doesnt fufill your life, choices do.

Having kids is a choice but its not a poorer choice to choose not to have them and should never be viewed as such.

I commented on the CFBC thread before and realised it probably isnt the place for me but I commented that people should be free to choose a CF life and not be questioned by people or judged. Its like someone choosing to be alcohol free, its not ok to say 'if you just tried it youd like it' 'youre missing out so much by not having a drink' 'I drink alcohol and it makes social events so much better for me' none of those are ok so why does it make it ok when it comes to kids.

If you enjoy it so much go do it and enjoy it. Dont force your life choices on others

 

[HEC1993]

I’ve never been overly maternal yet have two of my own. All I will say is that children definitley did not make me happier as a person, quite the opposite infact. I miss my old life. But my children are my world and they bring me so much joy. But I can see and reasonate with how some choose to stay child free. My son is undergoing various medical investigations and since he was born I’ve not felt truly happy in myself as I can’t be happy and enjoy my life not knowing what’s going on with him. You never think your child will be poorly until it actually happens to you (fingers crossed we get the clear so I feel like I can get back to my old self)

 

[LaBlonde]

There’s a phrase ‘a bad mum doesn’t worry about being a bad mum’. While that obviously doesn’t mean you should definitely have children, I think there’s something to be said for the fact that at least people who are on the fence about it are actually considering and weighing up the realities of having a child which probably does make you much more prepared than a lot of parents!

It is a massive life change, it tests your relationships and it’s full on (we don’t have family around us and I’ve quit my job to be a SAHM which I do feel very fortunate to have been able to do).

However I love my little boy a ridiculous amount and could not ever envisage a world without him now, I’ve always been an impatient person but it’s amazing the patience and love you suddenly develop. It’s a real privilege seeing him grow up and how quickly he’s learning new things. He’s so happy and developing such a sense of humour he’s such fun to be around and I genuinely love hanging out with him and taking him to new places. It’s cheesy but he really is my best friend.

This isn’t to convince anyone by any means, I absolutely support the reasons for being childfree. I just wanted to share some positivity as it’s not always mums moaning, I think a lot of times our thread is actually quite funny and you can tell how much everyone loves their little ones

this is a very kind and empathetic post - thank you

i think i’ve made my peace with it a little: there are aspects of having children that seem wonderful (like you say!) and there is, i guess, sadness that i will never have that but i think i also know it maybe wouldn’t be like that for me. if that makes sense! i would hate to have one in the hope i would surprise myself and then to realise it was going exactly as i thought it would.

i’ve genuinely enjoyed reading you ladies’ posts here! like i said upthread, i think we can offer value to each other (if from polar opposite sides) and i appreciate the gentleness of your response to me. i know it hasn’t always been earnt!
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Honestly I think most people care whether others or not have kids about as much as they care what colour your bedsheets are.

i wish i could say this was true but, in my real life, i have had (and continue to have) a huge amount of comments about it. thankfully getting less as i get older!

 

[jackolantern]

The things that really put me off are climate change, the state of the country/world and the fact that so many people (mainly young people) seem to struggle these days with things like mental health, careers, gender, etc…

Like I don’t feel good about bringing a child into all that. And that’s without thinking about the possibility they could be disabled or poorly and require extra care and maybe not have a nice life.

Be interested to hear other views on this kind of thing!

Regarding your first point, both me and my OH struggled with this because we both studied Conservation Biology so are plenty aware of the state of the world, however, from our perspective, we both feel we live more 'green' or 'sustainably' than your average Joe and that having a modest amount of children in was a reasonable thing to do. I think all you can do in life is your bit and if you are doing that, I don't think you should punish yourself further because others don't. I.e. we consume resources responsibly, give back where we can and have a child we can support. I think if you do all that, you aren't doing anything wrong. Although I appreciate that's just our take and others won't agree. I will say though - the world can support all of us even with this ridiculous population if people aren't greedy with consumables and replenish what they use.

As far as disabilities, there seems to be this massive misnomer that disabled kids don't have good lives? That's the rarity not the norm. Plus most 'abled' folk have MH struggles these days, that's not meant to scare you, just the reality that for the most part your physical or mental abilities don't automatically dictate your fulfilment in life. I'd actually argue many disabled folk I've met are even happier.

 

[HoGi]

I haven't seen anyone say that but fair enough if that's what you've found. To be fair though, every parent I know (I appreciate there are obviously some who won't agree) has said that they have never experienced love like the one they have for their child, so in their experience (which is what they base their views off) then yes, that is how they feel. I will openly admit I have never known purpose like having my son and I spent my whole life not really bothered about having kids, it's just something I cannot put into words and I do believe many (not all) people would feel the same if they had a child. Does that mean they by default should? Or their life is empty without? Of course not, just saying I can understand why people may say such things, particularly when people are on the fence, I guess they think they are trying to be helpful by saying how wonderful it can be.

Also there is *plenty* of judgement on parenting choices from people who don't even have kids. It's feral actually. Again, everyone is entitled to an opinion but it's another one of those things that unless you have experienced it, you can never really get it. I'm not saying being a parent is some exclusive club that you don't get a say on if you aren't in it, but unfortunately it really is true that it's one of those things you cannot fully grasp until you've lived it, so people who haven't being critical of how you do it really does fuck you off.

It's a shame we can't all just live our lives making our own choices and letting others make theirs but then I guess none of us would be on Tattle if we could would we?

BIB

I can't play golf but I can recognise a decent player from a poor one...

We might not all become parents but everyone has been a child. So the idea that child free people have no experience to comment on parenting issues is the sort of thing CFBC abhor.

 

[ThePidge]

So, I actually think this is kind of my point, in a way. The bit of your post I’ve quoted is exactly how I feel about certain close family members, I would take a bullet for or die for them, I’m distraught at the very thought of anything remotely bad happening to them. But I have found that I’m hit with “yeah but it’s not the same, you wouldn’t understand” from parents. And it’s like, well actually we’ve just had different life experiences and I clearly have a different relationship with my family members than you do? (The ‘you’ is directed at those that have said that, just to be clear). It’s just very dismissive, people who say that don’t have a clue how other people feel about people in their lives, and it makes out that non-parents are “less than”.

As @LaBlonde has said some people being hit with that comment are -actually people who are childfree but not by choice.

OK, so I feel like you read that part and ran with it before you finished reading- I agreed with you (keep reading). I just spoke about my experiences but I also said “I’m not here to say that it can’t be felt with other things either, but I’ve not experienced it with anything else yet so I can’t comment any further than that.”
I then ended it saying your feelings are not invalid either.
The point I’m trying to make is, the feeling and love for my child has hit me differently than anything else I’ve yet to experience in life so far (for me, personally!). That is NOT to say that how I feel, you can’t feel it too. I’m not you, I don’t know how you feel. But for me it’s a first time hit of the crazy feeling. I’ve not once said or implied saying you don’t understand. I said for me it’s an odd one!

 

[shadowcat5]

I really want children in a few years but struggle with the idea of just creating another human being without their consent tbh.
It’s kind of mad that we were all just brought here by our parents whether we wanted our lives or not, and if we want out then we basically just have to kill ourselves .

I have this exact feeling. Tbh, most of the time, I don't like being alive. It's a whole load of responsibility without a whole lot of fun. I don't know if I want to subject a child to this

 

[LaBlonde]

Up until I met my husband, I had never really thought about whether I'd want to try and have a baby as I'd always fallen for idiots. I just thought it might not be in the cards for me and quite honestly, I was okay with that! My parents really love children and I have an older sister who also loves children, so always assumed she'd have children, but she didn't.
I met the man of my dreams a few years ago when I was 35 and completely fell for him. We got engaged a few months later and discussed having children. We said we'd start trying once we got married. But then so many things happened (covid, my father had cancer, his family made our lives a living hell) and it's like I became a completely different person. I'm now 38 and to say the clock is ticking is an understatement.
Everything about children annoy me and I feel so terrible saying this. The way they scream, throw tantrums, absolutely everything. When I see a baby it doesn't make me want to try to have one and at the end of the day I feel relieved I don't have a child. I suffer from severe headaches, sometimes migraines and the thought of having a screaming child at home makes my skin crawl. My husband is amazing with children, they love him! He would love to have children, but we've discussed how I feel and he completely understands and respects it's not something we can try if I don't feel 200% sure, but I do feel bad for him.
Sometimes I do wonder if I'd feel differently about my child and he/she wouldn't annoy me. It sucks that us women have age against us.

your entire post spoke to me on every level!

i wouldn’t say i’m undecided as such, i am 95% sure that i don’t want kids, even though i have qualities that would make me a “good” parent, it has just never looked like a lifestyle that would suit me and i don’t think i would suit it either. the entire of having a baby/toddler/child in my life permanently who is fully dependent on me absolutely terrifies me.

the “it’s different if it’s your own” argument is so interesting, because it very well COULD be. but equally, it might not. and what can you do with the child then? they don’t come with a receipt! that terrifies me too

so many people in my life have said “well if you have one then you’ll feel differently” and it’s such an odd concept to me. i would never go up to someone who doesn’t want a pet horse (as an example) and be like “well why not have a horse come and live with you forever and you be solely responsible for its care? you’ll feel differently then”. like. no. i might not!!! the permanence of it all is scary af! even before you start considering what else may go wrong!

i feel some sadness about it but it’s more sadness in how people speak to me and treat me as a childfree woman, rather than any sadness about not having them myself. old age scares me but it scares me with or without children

ultimately, as said eloquently above, i think all any of us can do is live our lives in a way that makes us feel happy and fulfilled. i know there is sometimes sniping between mums and the childfree (i’m guilty of that!) but i think we do, on a deep level, respect each other’s choices. the fact that we’re protective of that choice is what makes both sides lash out sometimes.
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Thats interesting, I am slightly younger (36) but between people I know from school or uni it is about 50/50 who has or hasn't

i’m 37 and same, a solid 50/50 split. it’s similar with people around my age in the work too.

 

[ChampagneBox]

Oh god im going to find this thread so triggering but it’s literally my life right now I don’t even want to think about it, but I know eventually I’ll have to make a decision either way. I know it could possibly be the thing that breaks us up, but things aren’t great as they are anyway

 

[Smca53]

Because not all people can pay extra for the seat.

Sorry, but if someone can afford to go on holiday, they can afford to prebook the seat if they really can’t afford that extra then maybe they need to reevaluate whether they should be going at all. Or alternatively, just stay quiet and take the seats that they have? They should never expect other people who have spent money to prebook to move for them.

That’s utterly mental and so unreasonable, but sadly not uncommon and I suppose exactly the reason why people get wound up and write articles on this very topic.

 

[Codiaeum]

A thing I didn't touch upon in my first post and that is a huge consideration for me about having children is honestly other parents. I struggle with being lonely and I sometimes thought that having a child for ease some of that, as you naturally have more interaction with other people with a kid. That's my problem, my social anxiety and nothing a child should solve nor is here for. More importantly though - so very often when I see parents with their kids, I wouldn't want to be friends with them or even meet up with them. The thought of needing to deal with them when having a child scares me off

 

[Smca53]

- people refusing to give up a seat - honestly, if someone wants to sit with my child on a 4 hour journey, that’s fine but children should rightly be sitting with parents (sorry if I’ve misunderstood your point)

No, the articles are always about people paying to prebook their own seats and then parents who haven’t wanted to spend the money prebooking seats, expecting those people to move to accommodate their kids/family.

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This thread had potential but just spends its time slating the CFBC thread.