I remember this now, it was spun as a thing about Theresa May and GDPRThe one in 2019 was ongoing for several years but had issues with data and privacy (as they were going to require you to have upload photos of your ID OR buy an 'adult' access pass from a shop in person, which the public weren't enthused by) as well as the actual implementation seemingly not being thought out (e.g. what constitutes an adult site? How can content on catch-all sites - e.g. social media, photo hosting sites, message boards - be monitored for adult material? How can you confirm an individual user is old enough if the household has adults with access? etc)
But the more recent Online Safety Bill appears to have had it's final debate in parliament this month so looks like that will become law soon: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-safety-bill-finished-and-ready-to-become-law
Hopefully it actually gets stuff put in place to protect kids but yeahUnfortunately I'll believe it when we actually see it.
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Can someone explain to me (in the simplest way possible haha) about the wage gap - is it a myth? I get that people say itās a myth because women tend to and historically have gone for lower income jobs, jobs with more flexible hours for childcare etc so does that mean that people like Lawrence Fox (vomit) are right, that it doesnāt exist really?
I think the gender wage gap might be quite hard to prove in that places pay male staff more for exactly the same work .But employers do tempt new recruits with a higher salary than their existing employees.
But if a woman takes a part time role due to family responsibility, she pays less into her pension so the income gap continues into retirement.
It's something like men are 270 times more likely to be raped than be falsely accused. That figure will likely be skewed by the reluctance of men to report but it puts things into perspective.
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I'm assuming by "wage gap", you mean Gender Pay Gap so I've answered on that basis - apologies if I've got that wrong.
The Equal Pay Act says that men and women should be paid the same for doing the same job. The Gender (sex, really) Pay Gap is the differential between the average male wage in an organisation and the average female wage in an organisation. So if you have a lot of part time female employees and your management board is made up of mostly men, it's likely that your pay gap will be quite high. If you have an entirely balanced team of men and women at every level and role and they all work the same hours you'll have pay equilibrium.
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I'm really glad to see this thread. Like Jelly Bean, I'm really concerned about the open hostility we're now seeing towards women, particularly on social media. I have a younger male relative who openly sneers about feminism and I'm sure if he had the power to, he'd see me in the kitchen as a tradwife, serving my husband. I'm more accomplished than him and earn more money and I feel like he (my relative, not husband) resents me for it. It's hard for me to articulate, but I feel like I'm living under the mercy of men who would like nothing better than to take from me (money, property, rights) if they could.
Let's be honest, women were owned by their husbands with very few ways of making a living for years on end so the move to women having their own agency and not relying upon men for anything other than a romantic relationship was always going to take a long time. I just felt things were really improving. If ever there was a historic piece of TV on or I saw a newspaper from, say, 70 years ago, I was always struck by how things have changed for the positive for women since then.
Now I definitely see men as the enemy both collectively and individually and think the internet, social media and access to porn have given oxygen to something very very nasty.
Now I definitely see men as the enemy both collectively and individually and think the internet, social media and access to porn have given oxygen to something very very nasty.
I feel like men feel we have got too much power, we have become too uppity. The next generations seemed to be handling it better. The guys of 30 different to 50s etc. they had been brought up with equalities and it did feel like things were getting better. Not perfect, still misogynistic but less overt.
However, things have now taken a disturbing dive. The likes of Andrew Tate are pulling in the young, I fear we have only seen the start of something that is going to be devastating for every one- men and women. Add in porn. Add in social media. Add in dares on TikTok. The effects of lockdown. A few years ago Lawrence Fox would not have said what he did this week publically. Sure, he has lost that gig, and hopefully his dumbo sidekick Wootten, but the men (and women wtf?) were supportive of him and the public airing of his type of take on the world trickles down to others and gets added into the toxic stew.
Editing to add - cost of living has exacerbated anger. People are angry and when they are angry with no power to change anything, the dominant look around for victims to kick.
However, things have now taken a disturbing dive. The likes of Andrew Tate are pulling in the young, I fear we have only seen the start of something that is going to be devastating for every one- men and women. Add in porn. Add in social media. Add in dares on TikTok. The effects of lockdown. A few years ago Lawrence Fox would not have said what he did this week publically. Sure, he has lost that gig, and hopefully his dumbo sidekick Wootten, but the men (and women wtf?) were supportive of him and the public airing of his type of take on the world trickles down to others and gets added into the toxic stew.
Editing to add - cost of living has exacerbated anger. People are angry and when they are angry with no power to change anything, the dominant look around for victims to kick.
My children have had a few special assemblies about Andrew Tate and my daughter said 'all' the boys listen to him. I just despair.
And peer pressure. If boys think itās a crock of tit they would be targets for bullying
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4th para down. Machete talk.
Inside the violent, misogynistic world of TikTokās new star, Andrew Tate
Observer investigation reveals how the ex-kickboxer and Big Brother contestant from Luton has gone from obscurity to global internet fame in months
www.theguardian.com
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On the Andrew Tate-esque front,
- Twitter user nails the issue, and here's the response from one of the Andrew Tate wannabe bastards.
- And this is his response.
- And if anyone without two braincells to rub together thinks that 'it's SaTiRe' and therefore harmless, feel free to watch a bunch of 12 year old boys meeting their hero. Listen close to what he's saying in response - he knows he's fucked up a generation of children.
Girls are in DANGER. There's no escaping it by going home quickly, going to girls' schools, or keeping private and away from boys. It's everywhere and I feel sick.
- Twitter user nails the issue, and here's the response from one of the Andrew Tate wannabe bastards.
- And this is his response.
- And if anyone without two braincells to rub together thinks that 'it's SaTiRe' and therefore harmless, feel free to watch a bunch of 12 year old boys meeting their hero. Listen close to what he's saying in response - he knows he's fucked up a generation of children.
Girls are in DANGER. There's no escaping it by going home quickly, going to girls' schools, or keeping private and away from boys. It's everywhere and I feel sick.
There was a guy (53) at my old work that was particularly disgusting, and he went around declaring that he didnāt like certain female politicians and actresses, stating it was specifically because - with a shock horror tone of voice and face - ātheyāre feminists! 
ā. Bearing in mind that he drunkenly admitted that heād never been in a relationship, and that he was caught looking at BDSM websites at work - the tone of which were non-consensual and contained horrible acts of degradation towards women. He also wrote his own extreme BDSM fiction crap that he left on a USB at work. While working there, he randomly said the following:
āFeminists wreck marriages.ā
āFeminists are trying to emasculate men.ā
āFeminists are trying to take over the world.ā
āFeminists are wrong. Iām a humanist; I believe in equal rights for all, unlike feminists.ā (Ironic knowing his porn preference.)
āJudi Dench canāt act - the only reason sheās so popular is because sheās a feminist who was raised up by other feminists.ā
āI believe that marriage should be a partnership but that the man should have the final say in all matters.ā
To his female colleagues: āIād like to see you dressed in stockings and suspenders while cleaning my house.ā
āGood luck to any woman trying to keep a man if she doesnāt give him regular blowj*bs.ā
To his female colleagues: āIf I was a gangster, youād all be my molls.ā
He was desperately insecure and would also constantly try to make younger women feel āoldā, lecturing them on ārapid fertility decline after 30ā (
), and would also critique the appearance of every woman heād see on the news, magazines, etc., declaring that she was āplainā or āattractive enough but not greatā.
He was absolutely disgusting, and I really hope his behaviour and attitudes have caught up with him since.
ā. Bearing in mind that he drunkenly admitted that heād never been in a relationship, and that he was caught looking at BDSM websites at work - the tone of which were non-consensual and contained horrible acts of degradation towards women. He also wrote his own extreme BDSM fiction crap that he left on a USB at work. While working there, he randomly said the following:āFeminists wreck marriages.ā
āFeminists are trying to emasculate men.ā
āFeminists are trying to take over the world.ā
āFeminists are wrong. Iām a humanist; I believe in equal rights for all, unlike feminists.ā (Ironic knowing his porn preference.)
āJudi Dench canāt act - the only reason sheās so popular is because sheās a feminist who was raised up by other feminists.ā
āI believe that marriage should be a partnership but that the man should have the final say in all matters.ā
To his female colleagues: āIād like to see you dressed in stockings and suspenders while cleaning my house.ā
āGood luck to any woman trying to keep a man if she doesnāt give him regular blowj*bs.ā
To his female colleagues: āIf I was a gangster, youād all be my molls.ā
He was desperately insecure and would also constantly try to make younger women feel āoldā, lecturing them on ārapid fertility decline after 30ā (
), and would also critique the appearance of every woman heād see on the news, magazines, etc., declaring that she was āplainā or āattractive enough but not greatā. He was absolutely disgusting, and I really hope his behaviour and attitudes have caught up with him since.
Some of the Mum's I see with teenage boys say things like 'well it was the same when my husband was a boy' not understanding that it really really wasn't. They now have access to hardcore porn 24/7 and no experience of normal sex so that's what they think is normal. Add in the horrible influencers online and it's a potent mix that can only harm. And harm them as much as women.
When I come across someone who has a son or stepson who doesn't work and stays in his bedroom most of the time I ask what he does and it's always something like 'plays games' or 'watches box sets'. It's such a red flag for me.
When I come across someone who has a son or stepson who doesn't work and stays in his bedroom most of the time I ask what he does and it's always something like 'plays games' or 'watches box sets'. It's such a red flag for me.
Agreed. Lots of young girls are accessing the same material, Billie Eilish actually spoke about her porn problem as a really young girl (at the tender age of 11, she said). A feminist (I believe it was Abigail Shrier) made the great point that if you're a young girl and you grow up watching women being choked and spat on as an expression of eroticism, it's no wonder you might develop crippling gender dysphoria and depression (I know this isn't the gender discussion thread, but it's worth mentioning because, like EDs, it is most definitely a manifestation of the negative experience of being a girl in the modern age).
I believe the rise in girls claiming to be non-binary is a result of toxic masculinity. Trying to withdraw from the āgameā.
yep
i said this on the true crime thread when we were having this discussion, but i live very close to a comprehensive/sixth form, the lane behind my house is a popular walk home for the kids and i hear them talking all the time as they head past.the things that packs of teenage boys say to each other, the things that they yell to girls walking ahead of them or across the road, makes my blood curdle. it makes me so scared, and sad, for this generation of just disturbed and dangerous boys. and even more scared for this generation of girls.
Wasnt the wage gap in Birmingham partially to blame for it going bankrupt? Birmingham blames its position on a Ā£760m bill for equal pay claims, What went wrong at Birmingham city council and what happens next? | Birmingham | The Guardian
I think the councils issue was around things like bin men/refuse collectors historically being paid much more than school cleaners and carers, and the council was found to have discriminated in how much they paid men and women on a hourly rate! With the male staff being paid much more than the women. Both sets of jobs were found to have been equally demanding, but not paid at anywhere near the same rate! The female staff took the council to court, and won, thereby winning Ā£760m in damages!
I don't know exactly how this works now in 2023, but there have been recent fairly high profile cases of actresses being extremely upset to find that their male co stars are paid more than they are.
And there is also indirect inbalance. Men tend to be promoted faster than women, This may be as simple as men being more confident and encouraged to stretch themselves further in jobs, whereas women will tend to want to feel capable before they apply? For instance in primary schools, whilst doing supply across quite a few different schools, I noticed an inbalance between male and female teachers, with the male teachers being the ones who seemed to move up the responsibility ladder much faster. The head teacher would often be a younger man surrounded by female staff. Whereas female heads would tend to be older!
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This is a source of bemusement between women of different ages. As I am just in my sixties, I was brought up with enough feminist ideas to completely understand and embrace the idea of ''duck the male gaze'' eg dress comfortably to please yourself and don't wear clothing that is designed to be sexually provocative, primarily intended to get attention from men. I'm also aware that most men don't want women to be too thin and don't care overmuch about appearances.@ItsDatCuw made a brilliant point on the celeb gossip thread, started from a discussion about the how someone as beautiful as Zoƫ Kravitz or Jennifer Lawrence feels the need to change her face.
(This is her quote)
āItāslikemass hysteria: thereās this expectation that when a woman is 30, she āhasā to start having procedures to stay looking youthful (even though I know women in their seventies who still look naturally youthful).The obvious irony is that by having these procedures, people end up looking much olderā¦and removing buccal fat is just bizarre because isnāt it facial fat that generally gives a person a more youthful look? Thereās no doubt that all this has a misogynistic origin.
ā
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AndI definitely think this has a misogynistic origin, yes.
Itās about keeping women down. Some straight men donāt really care about what women look like, to be crude for a second, theyād duck anything, and I mean even inanimate objects.
My point is, 1, duck the make gaze
and 2, if youāre a straight woman, please donāt hold yourself up to male standards. They donāt really care anyway. And of course itās meaningless.
My daughters are in their 30s, and at least one of them has been taught by her peers and social media that its her right to dress however she wants and that includes the right to wear sexually provocative clothing, spend hundreds of pounds on hair and make up, to watch and enjoy porn, and to admire the stars of only fans etc etc because they are making a lot of money, for doing virtually nothing.
The main reason she hasn't had botox and lip fillers and a boob job, is that she cant realistically afford to do so! She is also constantly disappointed in her appearance and lacks confidence in how she looks.
But she would say she is a feminist, and that she isn't dressing just for the male gaze, she is dressing for herself to feel good and to validate herself.
Sadly I don't think that she is that different from a lot of her friends and peers, who do seem to be obsessed by their appearances. The whole reality show, or instagram or social media and shows like Married at first sight, rely heavily on appearance, make up and clothes. And that what the guys who go on these shows also seem to focus on.
My other daughter thankfully is nothing like this, and is a lot more like me, and will wear clothes that she likes and that are comfortable and thinks a lot of the other stuff is a waste of time and money!
But I fear there is a huge chasm between different women and different ages of women, with expectations and beliefs.
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I'm thankful this thread has been set up and everyone who shared their stories - I certainly felt comfort, solace, and sadness reading them. I want to give so many of you a hug.
I am so upset about Elianne in Croydon. When I was young I studied in England and ended up being in London - not far from Croydon until I finished university and moved back home. How dare that young boy turn up with roses and a knife to meet his ex on the bus? It's as though he was saying: "if I cannot have you, no one will" and that he could not handle a girl saying no to him, rejecting him, so he was prepared to use violence in place of his fragile ego. Atwood says men are afraid women will laugh at them, while women are afraid men will kill them, and it is true.
I am even sadder about the backlash against women, how AT has galvanised swathes of young boys, men and disaffected men. They act as though he is a messiah and hero worship him, when he is truly vile and not the antidote for how they are feeling inside. Nor are women. And I am sick and tired of women being held responsible for spurned men being unable to control their hurt feelings and hubris. I have male friends - well acquaintances - who love AT, sing his praises and think he is on the verge of some great truth that will emancipate men all over. But there is no great truth he's on the brink of discovering. He is a conman, a violent misogynist, and a village idiot with access to a smartphone.
I often hear large groups of teenage boys speak about women and girls in truly disgusting ways - hypersexualised, objectified, and gross. It's happened 3-4 times now. And I always feel like such a coward and a hypocrite for not telling them to shut up or to keep their private thoughts to themselves because no one wants to hear such things on public transport. I get scared - what if they have a knife? Or physically harm me? Or throw acid at me? Inside I feel like screaming, throwing chairs at them, tearing their hair out to remind them that they came to Earth through a woman's body and this is how they openly speak about girls and women? I swear it's the sort of inner rage that could burn cities to the ground. But I sit there quietly until my stop arrives, and I quickly walk home.
As has been said earlier I think this is an inevitable pushback to women not being so economically tied and dependent on men, us receiving greater agency, and that many women have their voice, laws that provide a bit more protection than before, but also how women band together to support one another. I know women also tear each other down, but we do seem to rally around each other better than the men, as seen in the runs lots of women do for breast cancer etc. It is probably the first time that women are not so dependent on men, and many men may feel useless. But instead of developing themselves positively, thinking of how they can evolve their thinking, they resort to being raging misogynists and blame everyone - except themselves - for their inadequacies. And I hate how women are expected to pander to their poor, little, hurty feelings!
Of course I know the maxim: not all men. I was raised by my father. But it is almost all women with a story of abuse, violence, harassment, and assault at the hands of men. So if it's not all men, where are these good men? Why aren't they calling their friends out? Why aren't they taking a stand? Because they know other men will ridicule them and cast them out (an article called it a type of 'social suicide'). Bell Hooks does a better job of articulating this than me in her book All About Love.
I worry a great deal for young girls today. It is an onslaught on them and many of them are isolated. I remember growing up feeling frightened all the time and as though I were at the mercy of men and boys. I've been in abusive relationships and thought that if I made myself sexually unattractive (fat, not pretty etc.) that I'd 'safe.' But I wasn't. Thankfully after years of therapy I have managed to overcome it. In some communities there is a cultural practice of younger girls being around older women in their families (aunts, grandmothers, great-aunts, female cousins etc.) to guide them through puberty and womanhood. I wish more young girls had that.
I'm so sorry for the essay. I am so unsettled and sometimes cannot believe the world I am living in
I am so upset about Elianne in Croydon. When I was young I studied in England and ended up being in London - not far from Croydon until I finished university and moved back home. How dare that young boy turn up with roses and a knife to meet his ex on the bus? It's as though he was saying: "if I cannot have you, no one will" and that he could not handle a girl saying no to him, rejecting him, so he was prepared to use violence in place of his fragile ego. Atwood says men are afraid women will laugh at them, while women are afraid men will kill them, and it is true.
I am even sadder about the backlash against women, how AT has galvanised swathes of young boys, men and disaffected men. They act as though he is a messiah and hero worship him, when he is truly vile and not the antidote for how they are feeling inside. Nor are women. And I am sick and tired of women being held responsible for spurned men being unable to control their hurt feelings and hubris. I have male friends - well acquaintances - who love AT, sing his praises and think he is on the verge of some great truth that will emancipate men all over. But there is no great truth he's on the brink of discovering. He is a conman, a violent misogynist, and a village idiot with access to a smartphone.
I often hear large groups of teenage boys speak about women and girls in truly disgusting ways - hypersexualised, objectified, and gross. It's happened 3-4 times now. And I always feel like such a coward and a hypocrite for not telling them to shut up or to keep their private thoughts to themselves because no one wants to hear such things on public transport. I get scared - what if they have a knife? Or physically harm me? Or throw acid at me? Inside I feel like screaming, throwing chairs at them, tearing their hair out to remind them that they came to Earth through a woman's body and this is how they openly speak about girls and women? I swear it's the sort of inner rage that could burn cities to the ground. But I sit there quietly until my stop arrives, and I quickly walk home.
As has been said earlier I think this is an inevitable pushback to women not being so economically tied and dependent on men, us receiving greater agency, and that many women have their voice, laws that provide a bit more protection than before, but also how women band together to support one another. I know women also tear each other down, but we do seem to rally around each other better than the men, as seen in the runs lots of women do for breast cancer etc. It is probably the first time that women are not so dependent on men, and many men may feel useless. But instead of developing themselves positively, thinking of how they can evolve their thinking, they resort to being raging misogynists and blame everyone - except themselves - for their inadequacies. And I hate how women are expected to pander to their poor, little, hurty feelings!
Of course I know the maxim: not all men. I was raised by my father. But it is almost all women with a story of abuse, violence, harassment, and assault at the hands of men. So if it's not all men, where are these good men? Why aren't they calling their friends out? Why aren't they taking a stand? Because they know other men will ridicule them and cast them out (an article called it a type of 'social suicide'). Bell Hooks does a better job of articulating this than me in her book All About Love.
I worry a great deal for young girls today. It is an onslaught on them and many of them are isolated. I remember growing up feeling frightened all the time and as though I were at the mercy of men and boys. I've been in abusive relationships and thought that if I made myself sexually unattractive (fat, not pretty etc.) that I'd 'safe.' But I wasn't. Thankfully after years of therapy I have managed to overcome it. In some communities there is a cultural practice of younger girls being around older women in their families (aunts, grandmothers, great-aunts, female cousins etc.) to guide them through puberty and womanhood. I wish more young girls had that.
I'm so sorry for the essay. I am so unsettled and sometimes cannot believe the world I am living in
Itās bad enough for girls at school, what happens when they move to uni and living on site?
As I said on the Celeb Gossip thread, men think that women love this stuff because the women on the videos are.May be some progress that this is even being looked at?
French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women
Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers
French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women
Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers
View attachment 2479590
No doubt some of them may enjoy that, but it needs to be remembered they are getting paid for that and their job is to look like they are enjoying themselves. Also I expect if they refuse certain acts their career and earnings will drop.
I remember even in the 2000's getting called boring for not wanting to do certain sexual things, so I imagine it must be horrific now. Girls thinking they need to do stuff they are not comfortable with. I have heard young girls talking about how being choked makes them horny - just to impress guys who will then think they are "wild in bed".
I know women who played up pretending to be lesbian just to pull guys.
I think porn has its place for sure and if everyone is consenting it is generally ok.
But I do think it gives young men unreal expectations of what a healthy sexual relationship is like.
Solidarity with the Sisters SideyB @Sideboard Bob , just wanted to let you know that I'm here 
and will be back later to have a read. Thank you for starting this thread, I think it's an important one x
and will be back later to have a read. Thank you for starting this thread, I think it's an important one x