Womanhood and injustices against women

Sideboard Bob · Sep 28, 2023

Starting this thread off the back of a lot of things we‘ve discussed in the Secret Celebrity Gossip threads over the last couple of weeks.

It’s become clear that for a lot of us, it is really hard to be a women in this day and age. And that it’s always been hard.

I know not every woman calls herself a feminist, so this is a discussion for all women, about…

how badly rape victims are treated
sexism in the workplace
sexual harassment
misogyny in the media and online
how teenage girls and young women are affected by men watching porn
toxic masculinity

etc etc. There’s SO much to discuss.

I know I’ve missed some things so please feel free to add more.

~~~
I cannot make rules or moderate this thread, but I would really love this thread to stay on topic, so please can I just say that -

1. there is a separate thread for gender discussions (which covers trans issues),

2. Men, I can’t stop you from commenting here but it would be so great if this is a thread for women to talk about the things that affect us. We KNOW not all men are like that. And for issues which affect men, feel free to create your own thread

House of Tea · Sep 28, 2023

Might be worth a read…will remove to celeb gossip if it doesn’t fit here

Doon Mackichan isn't one for false compliments in her memoir

Show business memoirs are usually complimentary about other performers or, at least, they refrain from being negative about them but British actress Doon Mackichan isn't one for false compliments.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sideboard Bob · Sep 28, 2023

Jelly Bean · Sep 28, 2023

I genuinely feel quite depressed about the state of affairs atm.
I'm nearly 60 and have experienced, like most if not all women, casual and not so casual sexism, abuse and inappropriate behaviour throughout my life.
But now it feels like there is a genuine movement by some men to assert themselves as the dominant species, as if it is their right. Go on TwitterX for 2 minutes and some man will be saying to a woman something along the lines of 'Men have protected you for thousands of centuries, you'd be nothing without us'. Depressing stuff.

Sideboard Bob · Sep 28, 2023

Jelly Bean said:
I genuinely feel quite depressed about the state of affairs atm.
I'm nearly 60 and have experienced, like most if not all women, casual and not so casual sexism, abuse and inappropriate behaviour throughout my life.
But now it feels like there is a genuine movement by some men to assert themselves as the dominant species, as if it is their right. Go on TwitterX for 2 minutes and some man will be saying to a woman something along the lines of 'Men have protected you for thousands of centuries, you'd be nothing without us'. Depressing stuff.

That really is depressing, and I’m so sorry you‘ve experienced that.

I think it’s because women’s rights are a relatively new thing (in terms of the whole of human history), so what we’re experiencing now is the sad but inevitable pushback.

House of Tea · Sep 28, 2023

Jelly Bean said:
I genuinely feel quite depressed about the state of affairs atm.
I'm nearly 60 and have experienced, like most if not all women, casual and not so casual sexism, abuse and inappropriate behaviour throughout my life.
But now it feels like there is a genuine movement by some men to assert themselves as the dominant species, as if it is their right. Go on TwitterX for 2 minutes and some man will be saying to a woman something along the lines of 'Men have protected you for thousands of centuries, you'd be nothing without us'. Depressing stuff.

Protecting us from whom? Other men.

Sideboard Bob · Sep 28, 2023

My question is, what can we do?

Does anyone know of any organisations that are campaigning for meaningful change in how rape victims are treated, and to change the system that works against them?

Eureka · Sep 28, 2023

Sideboard Bob said:
View attachment 2479421

This needs to be on billboards. I don’t think many people really appreciate how hard it is to get rape and sexual assault convictions.

Sideboard Bob · Sep 29, 2023

@ItsDatCuw made a brilliant point on the celeb gossip thread, started from a discussion about the how someone as beautiful as Zoë Kravitz or Jennifer Lawrence feels the need to change her face.

(This is her quote)

“It’s ~~like~~ mass hysteria: there’s this expectation that when a woman is 30, she “has” to start having procedures to stay looking youthful (even though I know women in their seventies who still look naturally youthful). The obvious irony is that by having these procedures, people end up looking much older…and removing buccal fat is just bizarre because isn’t it facial fat that generally gives a person a more youthful look? There’s no doubt that all this has a misogynistic origin. ”
---
AndI definitely think this has a misogynistic origin, yes.

It’s about keeping women down. Some straight men don’t really care about what women look like, to be crude for a second, they’d duck anything, and I mean even inanimate objects.

My point is, 1, duck the make gaze

and 2, if you’re a straight woman, please don’t hold yourself up to male standards. They don’t really care anyway. And of course it’s meaningless.

Flowergirl14 · Sep 29, 2023

Sideboard Bob said:
Starting this thread off the back of a lot of things we‘ve discussed in the Secret Celebrity Gossip threads over the last couple of weeks.

It’s become clear that for a lot of us, it is really hard to be a women in this day and age. And that it’s always been hard.

I know not every woman calls herself a feminist, so this is a discussion for all women, about…

how badly rape victims are treated

sexism in the workplace

sexual harassment

misogyny in the media and online

how teenage girls and young women are affected by men watching porn

toxic masculinity

etc etc. There’s SO much to discuss.

I know I’ve missed some things so please feel free to add more.

~~~
I cannot make rules or moderate this thread, but I would really love this thread to stay on topic, so please can I just say that -

1. there is a separate thread for gender discussions (which covers trans issues),

2. Men, I can’t stop you from commenting here but it would be so great if this is a thread for women to talk about the things that affect us. We KNOW not all men are like that. And for issues which affect men, feel free to create your own thread

Thank you so much for setting up this thread. So much to discuss.

Sideboard Bob · Sep 29, 2023

Flowergirl14 said:
Thank you so much for setting up this thread. So much to discuss.

It’s my pleasure (well I wish we didn’t need to talk about this stuff but you know what I mean).
I want to thank all the women of tattle for speaking out over the last couple of weeks, it can’t have been easy, but it’s helped people feel less alone.

ItsDatCuw · Sep 29, 2023

This has really resonated in recent years, and I honestly wish it was just a choice at this point.

Pavlova&Cream · Sep 29, 2023

May be some progress that this is even being looked at?

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women
Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women

Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

www.theguardian.com

Flowergirl14 · Sep 29, 2023

I hate myself for saying this as I really should rise above it, but I am not a fan of men at the moment. Saying that despite having a lovely son, and my late brother and father were lovely men.
But why is there so much toxic male behaviour around at the moment.
That beautiful young teenage girl that was knifed to death in London yesterday, the Sarah Everard case....I could go on forever...
What is the answer?

Sideboard Bob · Sep 29, 2023

Pavlova&Cream said:
May be some progress that this is even being looked at?

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women
Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women

Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 2479590

So glad this is being addressed.

Look at this from the article -

“Judges in France are investigating several cases against producers of pornography. In one case involving a French pornography website, 17 men are to face trial for rape, group rape and human trafficking for sexual exploitation, with at least 40 victims. In other cases, several French pornography producers have been charged with human trafficking, rape or rape with acts of torture. But the report said the legal process was long.”

Meaningful change. This is what we need,

thegirlscout · Sep 29, 2023

Sideboard Bob said:
View attachment 2479421

I think the true statistic is that men are more likely to be victims of rape themselves than be falsely accused.
Looking at that graph it’s interesting that nearly every woman knows someone who has been sexually assaulted in one way or another but no man seems to know any abusers or rapists. Funny that.

Sideboard Bob · Sep 29, 2023

thegirlscout said:
I think the true statistic is that men are more likely to be victims of rape themselves than be falsely accused.
Looking at that graph it’s interesting that nearly every woman knows someone who has been sexually assaulted in one way or another but no man seems to know any abusers or rapists. Funny that.

Definitely. I‘d advise any man who questions this sort of thing to look at the stats here.

Myths vs facts

There are many common myths about rape and other forms of sexual violence and abuse that can cause shame and self-blame. Find out the facts here.

rapecrisis.org.uk

thegirlscout · Sep 29, 2023

Sideboard Bob said:
@ItsDatCuw made a brilliant point on the celeb gossip thread, started from a discussion about the how someone as beautiful as Zoë Kravitz or Jennifer Lawrence feels the need to change her face.

(This is her quote)

“It’s ~~like~~ mass hysteria: there’s this expectation that when a woman is 30, she “has” to start having procedures to stay looking youthful (even though I know women in their seventies who still look naturally youthful). The obvious irony is that by having these procedures, people end up looking much older…and removing buccal fat is just bizarre because isn’t it facial fat that generally gives a person a more youthful look? There’s no doubt that all this has a misogynistic origin. ”
---
AndI definitely think this has a misogynistic origin, yes.

It’s about keeping women down. Some straight men don’t really care about what women look like, to be crude for a second, they’d duck anything, and I mean even inanimate objects.

My point is, 1, duck the make gaze

and 2, if you’re a straight woman, please don’t hold yourself up to male standards. They don’t really care anyway. And of course it’s meaningless.

I added it on there but I’ll add it here as well - sadly Zoe started surgery very young, like late teens/early 20s. Same with Jennifer Lawrence. It used to be that women (mostly) had surgery to ‘stay young’ and ‘fresh’ etc etc but if you’ve got girls getting surgery at 15 onwards then what’s the reasoning? Especially as getting surgeries at that age can go wrong as the body isn’t finished developing and that can impact the final look. Case in point is Dove Cameron - she had some form of surgery done on her nose at a young age and the tip of her nose is looks very pinched. She’s continued to have surgery and looks a totally different person and she’s only 27!

https://theskincareedit.com/dove-cameron-before-and-after#gid=ci0290ef83300025e7&pid=in-a-2008-production-of-the-secret-garden

Dotty Merton · Sep 29, 2023

Pavlova&Cream said:
May be some progress that this is even being looked at?

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women
Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women

Report urges changes in the law to make it easier to take down content and prosecute its makers

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 2479590

I think the porn angle is very important. There was going to be a legal change for viewing porn in 2019 in UK which was then not implemented, (why not? lock down? privacy concerns?) the gov website page for it is still live and says this -

"There will be a number of age-verification options available, so a user can choose what’s right for them. These checks will be rigorous - you won’t be able to just type in your date of birth or tick a box. Age-verification solutions range from the use of traditional ID documents online (for example, credit cards or passports) to mobile phones where the adult filters have been removed. Users can also use digital IDs or buy a card over the counter in a shop where the verification is face to face."

Age-verification for online pornography to begin in July

The UK will become the first country in the world to bring in age-verification for online pornography when the measures come into force on 15 July 2019.

www.gov.uk

I've just checked a major porn provider and all it has is a pop up for you to click that says 'I am 18 years old or older ENTER'. Nothing to prove age. There is a click through to advise parents how to protect their kids viewing it by setting up safe searches etc. But, there is nothing to stop under 18's clicking one box and then seeing EVERYTHING on the first page, every hole, school uniforms, family themes, hardcore all on the first page.

An org called Internet Matters have an info graphic highlighting the dangers to kids. We need one for adults frankly.

https://www.internetmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Internet-Matters-Infographic-Impact-of-seeing-Online-pornography-on-children.pdf

Lolly505 · Sep 29, 2023

Dotty Merton said:
I think the porn angle is very important. There was going to be a legal change for viewing porn in 2019 in UK which was then not implemented, (why not? lock down? privacy concerns?) the gov website page for it is still live and says this -

"There will be a number of age-verification options available, so a user can choose what’s right for them. These checks will be rigorous - you won’t be able to just type in your date of birth or tick a box. Age-verification solutions range from the use of traditional ID documents online (for example, credit cards or passports) to mobile phones where the adult filters have been removed. Users can also use digital IDs or buy a card over the counter in a shop where the verification is face to face."

Age-verification for online pornography to begin in July

The UK will become the first country in the world to bring in age-verification for online pornography when the measures come into force on 15 July 2019.

www.gov.uk

I've just checked a major porn provider and all it has is a pop up for you to click that says 'I am 18 years old or older ENTER'. Nothing to prove age. There is a click through to advise parents how to protect their kids viewing it by setting up safe searches etc. But, there is nothing to stop under 18's clicking one box and then seeing EVERYTHING on the first page, every hole, school uniforms, family themes, hardcore all on the first page.

An org called Internet Matters have an info graphic highlighting the dangers to kids. We need one for adults frankly.

https://www.internetmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Internet-Matters-Infographic-Impact-of-seeing-Online-pornography-on-children.pdf

The one in 2019 was ongoing for several years but had issues with data and privacy (as they were going to require you to have upload photos of your ID OR buy an 'adult' access pass from a shop in person, which the public weren't enthused by

) as well as the actual implementation seemingly not being thought out (e.g. what constitutes an adult site? How can content on catch-all sites - e.g. social media, photo hosting sites, message boards - be monitored for adult material? How can you confirm an individual user is old enough if the household has adults with access? etc)

But the more recent Online Safety Bill appears to have had it's final debate in parliament this month so looks like that will become law soon: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-safety-bill-finished-and-ready-to-become-law
Hopefully it actually gets stuff put in place to protect kids but yeah

Unfortunately I'll believe it when we actually see it.