Train strikes

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CrackingOwlSanctuary

CrackingOwlSanctuary

Not all TOCs have to run 40% of service level as I understand it but I expect that the ones that are being run by the government will try to. Of course I would be surprised if any striking crew turn up for their jobs, I don't think any company would be able to do much about a mass abscence beyond docking them the pay they'd have lost striking anyway.

The 40% is such an arbitrary figure and doesnt seem to consider some TOCs could meet it by running 9 minute shuttle trips they normally run anyway to hit the magic number required of them, leaving anyone trying to travel any distance no better off.
 
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PinkandTwinkly

PinkandTwinkly

CrackingOwlSanctuary said:
Not all TOCs have to run 40% of service level as I understand it but I expect that the ones that are being run by the government will try to. Of course I would be surprised if any striking crew turn up for their jobs, I don't think any company would be able to do much about a mass abscence beyond docking them the pay they'd have lost striking anyway.

The 40% is such an arbitrary figure and doesnt seem to consider some TOCs could meet it by running 9 minute shuttle trips they normally run anyway to hit the magic number required of them, leaving anyone trying to travel any distance no better off.
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I've read the Aslef brief put out to Drivers and it's a bit vague, but the Drvs are rightly worried about being the ones who have to come in / or not coming in and risking disaplinary and putting jobs at risk.
 
CrackingOwlSanctuary

CrackingOwlSanctuary

Most TOCs are so desperate for drivers and give in to them on most issues (and would have already given in on this one if the DFT hadn't stuck their oar in!) I really can't see a scenario where they are trying to discipline hundreds of drivers at once. Depends what the union strategy is of course.
 
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I

IngressUK

CrackingOwlSanctuary said:
Most TOCs are so desperate for drivers and give in to them on most issues (and would have already given in on this one if the DFT hadn't stuck their oar in!) I really can't see a scenario where they are trying to discipline hundreds of drivers at once. Depends what the union strategy is of course.
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If being a Train Driver wasn't such a 'closed shop' occupation, then I'm sure many people would love the opportunity to apply to be one.

I unsuccessfully applied for London Underground many years ago in the very last public advertising for positions (<2010-ish). After that all driver jobs are now filled within existing TfL staff, no one from outside is allowed to apply for the positions. If you wish to be a TfL train driver, you now have to 'rise through the ranks' to be one. I'm pretty sure this is similar for many of the Train Operating Companies, unless you are an existing driver with another Train company.

How is this right, fair and non discriminatory?

The unions like to bleat on about unfairness and discrimination, however many of their enforced practices are just that.
 
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Folkevermore

Folkevermore

IngressUK said:
If being a Train Driver wasn't such a 'closed shop' occupation, then I'm sure many people would love the opportunity to apply to be one.

I unsuccessfully applied for London Underground many years ago in the very last public advertising for positions (<2010-ish). After that all driver jobs are now filled within existing TfL staff, no one from outside is allowed to apply for the positions. If you wish to be a TfL train driver, you now have to 'rise through the ranks' to be one. I'm pretty sure this is similar for many of the Train Operating Companies, unless you are an existing driver with another Train company.

How is this right, fair and non discriminatory?

The unions like to bleat on about unfairness and discrimination, however many of their enforced practices are just that.
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I know my TOC does open advertisements that anyone can apply for. Obviously you’re more likely to get the job if you have front line railway experience though, because you know more about procedures and safety
 
I

IngressUK

Folkevermore said:
I know my TOC does open advertisements that anyone can apply for. Obviously you’re more likely to get the job if you have front line railway experience though, because you know more about procedures and safety
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Even on UK Rail Forums, staffed by Industry professionals and knowledgeable individuals, it has been stated that as an outsider (ordinary person looking for work) you have no hope of becoming a TfL tube driver. Promotion is from within, and only after x years of doing a job in areas such as front line customer service.

So 'closed shops' do still exist on the rail network.

I personally consider this to be a discriminationary union practice. As it shuts out any member of the public applying for a position, only those currently within the organisation will get knowledge of positions, and be allowed to apply for them.

The only positions the Unions don't seem to have issues with being advertised publicly are the lower end jobs, such as ticket gate operatives, and customer service. Anything higher paid is reserved for those already in, despite someone on the outside being more than qualified.
 
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PinkandTwinkly

PinkandTwinkly

I can't comment on TFL, but I'd say about 60% my Drivers over the last few years have come from internal promotions with the rest new to the railway , so it's 100% not true that it's a closed shop.
Half the posters on UK Rail Forums are bitter as they never made the grade so talk a fair amount of bollocks

The biggest route to Drv for us is ex Grds, and as the majority of Grds have come from outside the railway for the last 4-5 yrs, with some stepping up to trainee Drv in only a couple years again still makes it more accessible than you are making out
 
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CrackingOwlSanctuary

CrackingOwlSanctuary

By law jobs have to be advertised to the public and I have some friends who were 'off the street' and straight into driving. Not sure about TFL but driving is regarded as the most desireable frontline role to the majority of staff so naturally vacancies see a lot of applications.

Some companies have an agreement with unions that if an external and an internal candidate score the same for a role the internal candidate will be successful, this was due to there being a percieved preference by the companies to recruit external candidates and avoid having to train both a new driver and the replacement for whomever was successful.

The railway is also quite a niche job between the shift working and the on train roles which have seen a few external candidates complete their training in the 9-5 Monday - Friday bubble and immediately dislike the shift work and the actual job, so there is the argument that if you have two candidates for the same job scoring the same but one has years of employment records with you where they have demonstrated they are fine with shift work etc. Then it makes sense to employ them. I know of a few instances where people have completed all the training and then when it was time to do the job out on their own just quit.

It's not to say there aren't underhand things happening on the railway of course, supposedly there is a dedicated masonic lodge!
 
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PinkandTwinkly

PinkandTwinkly

Yep. On their applications people with say 'experienced shift worker' then you interview, and talk through the roster and they soon realise that they don't want to start work at 4am on a Sunday and withdraw 😂
 
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PinkandTwinkly

PinkandTwinkly

CrackingOwlSanctuary said:
One of the depots at my company has had an 02:25 book on in the past, they were thrilled you can imagine!
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For Drivers the standard earliest at my depot is 0319,, but with engineering work we often have a 0240

Some depots have night links, but mine doesn't even tho the latest finsh is 0354
 
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plymouthbloke1974

plymouthbloke1974

My earliest book at my depot for my grade is 06:00 and latest bookoff is 23:53…. Used to be a lot worse than that but I’m happy with shift work anyway 😊
 
kev1974

kev1974

IngressUK said:
If being a Train Driver wasn't such a 'closed shop' occupation, then I'm sure many people would love the opportunity to apply to be one.

I unsuccessfully applied for London Underground many years ago in the very last public advertising for positions (<2010-ish). After that all driver jobs are now filled within existing TfL staff, no one from outside is allowed to apply for the positions. If you wish to be a TfL train driver, you now have to 'rise through the ranks' to be one. I'm pretty sure this is similar for many of the Train Operating Companies, unless you are an existing driver with another Train company.

How is this right, fair and non discriminatory?

The unions like to bleat on about unfairness and discrimination, however many of their enforced practices are just that.
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I think the closed shop is true for TfL because the pay and historic perks are so ludicrously good.

But not for mainline train companies.

You can apply right now for my local train company.
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I wouldn't like to be a Tube driver. Maybe on the District/Met/Circle/H&C where you're going to spend decent amount of time above ground or near above ground. Just going back and forth on all the "proper" tube lines like the Central line driving the same trains day in day out in the lengthy tunnel sections can't have any excitement or interest to it.
 
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PinkandTwinkly

PinkandTwinkly

They advised for trainees for my TOC/depot this evening on the external website
So many applications it was up for less than a hour. Hopefully once those are sifted it'll go up again
 
CrackingOwlSanctuary

CrackingOwlSanctuary

If the government had just let the TOCs agree their own deals instead of insisting they had to have a blanket agreement across all TOCs handled by the RDG/DfT then it would have all likely been resolved ages ago. The government has even admitted it's cost more to stay in dispute than it would have to just deal.

It may have made some sense to try and take the negotiations by the reins if there was any talent left in government but based on their recent track record I'm not sure why they thought they would win against the two strongest unions in the country.
 
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