The late abortion jail sentence case

[daydreamer95]

I am really struggling with my thoughts on this case.

I can't imagine any woman would make the decision to take this medicine lightly, knowing full well that they would have to give birth to an almost term baby. I know it's not something I could do and I can only imagine she was really struggling.

I do think there needs to be action taken to stop others doing this at such a late stage, but I'm not 100% sure prison is the right place for her.

The lady was very conflicted with decision to take pills you can tell by the delay of her searches and taking the pills as judge said

I wouldn’t want any woman to put themselves in this danger did you see the first time paramedics came they left not knowing she was pregnant despite it saying report of suspected miscarriage

I don’t understand maybe she didn’t show very much but didn’t she seem serious enough to be taken to hospital the first time?

It says report she was having miscarriage she gave false information so that means she didn’t make the call herself?

Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm.

 

[JoeBloggs]

The lady was very conflicted with decision to take pills you can tell by the delay of her searches and taking the pills as judge said

I wouldn’t want any woman to put themselves in this danger did you see the first time paramedics came they left not knowing she was pregnant despite it saying report of suspected miscarriage

I don’t understand maybe she didn’t show very much but didn’t she seem serious enough to be taken to hospital the first time?

It says report she was having miscarriage she gave false information so that means she didn’t make the call herself?

Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm.

This bit doesn't add up to me. Paramedics get given the information from the call, so they must have been told she might be having a miscarriage. How do they then leave not knowing she was pregnant. If someone else called it in, they knew she was pregnant and were clearly with her at the time. How was she able to convince them she was not pregnant.

 

[daydreamer95]

This bit doesn't add up to me. Paramedics get given the information from the call, so they must have been told she might be having a miscarriage. How do they then leave not knowing she was pregnant. If someone else called it in, they knew she was pregnant and were clearly with her at the time. How was she able to convince them she was not pregnant.

She had just moved back in with father of her children I think a few months before pandemic so it could be him that reported thinking she was having a miscarriage then when paramedics turned up she gave false info they believe her and go

If he didn’t know she was pregnant and one day thought she was having a miscarriage wouldn’t he insist she goes to hospital why would he let paramedics go that’s if he was the one reporting

That bit doesn’t make sense why is it left vague who was with her maybe it’s in another page I don’t have will go back and look

 

[JoeBloggs]

She had just moved back in with father of her children I think a few months before pandemic so it could be him that reported thinking she was having a miscarriage then when paramedics turned up she gave false info they believe her and go

If he didn’t know she was pregnant and one day thought she was having a miscarriage wouldn’t he insist she goes to hospital why would he let paramedics go that’s if he was the one reporting

That bit doesn’t make sense why is it left vague who was with her maybe it’s in another page I don’t have will go back and look

That's what I assumed, he called it in. If you partner/mother of your children was showing the signs why would you one leave her alone (if he wasn't present when the crew arrived) and two not insist she goes to hospital. If he knew she was pregnant and let her convince them otherwise, that seems odd.

 

[Wild_she]

I’m cuddling my one week old and couldn’t imagine what her head must of been going through when she did it I wonder if she regretted it that’s why she called the paramedics, but then panicked when she realised the gravity of what she had done?

I know it’s terribly sad for all involved, but I don’t think a prison sentence is right for this her mental health must of been shot and probably still is from delivering and knowing what she did to that unborn child.

 

[White]

It's a horrific case. I do feel for the woman, going through that alone, but knowing that the foetus is virtually fully formed and not knowing would it still be alive or not, or be born with disabilities due to her taking the medication so late, I can't imagine what was going through her mind and how anyone could go through with that so late.

Being a parent herself, as I am, as many of us are, I cannot imagine the horror of doing that so late. We don't know her state of mind though.

It raises so many questions. Did she not find out she was pregnant until late on? Questions that we will probably not get the answers to.

 

[daydreamer95]

The Regina v Catt case referred to for sentencing is worth reading the link was originally posted by @witchofwestbyfleet

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff70460d03e7f57ea5d5b

In this case the the woman did go for scan then says she had private abortion and destroyed the records, various searches about illegal abortion she bought pills online no body found

@JoeBloggs Sorry I can’t find a reference to who made the report it’s vague purposefully I wonder why, if anybody else finds who reported miscarriage initially please correct me

 

[Nelly's mum]

I find it difficult to believe her partner did not know she was pregnant - she was 8 months pregnant, it was surely obvious. I can understand being undecided whether to keep the baby or have an abortion but to do that to an almost full-term baby is awful, she had 24 weeks to have an abortion.

 

[cococookie]

I find it difficult to believe her partner did not know she was pregnant - she was 8 months pregnant, it was surely obvious. I can understand being undecided whether to keep the baby or have an abortion but to do that to an almost full-term baby is awful, she had 24 weeks to have an abortion.

This is what’s playing on my mind, why did she wait so long?

 

[daydreamer95]

This is what’s playing on my mind, why did she wait so long?

The case screenshots earlier on the thread started at 5 here is 3-4 containing details of timeline and searches made

Messages indicate she knew about pregnancy from at least the 1st Feb


3. Some weeks after that change in the law, you obtained abortion drugs by a telephone consultation designed only for abortions in the first ten weeks. You were in fact 32-34 weeks pregnant and well beyond the point at which you could lawfully obtain an abortion. Messages found on your phone indicate that you had known of your pregnancy for about three months on 1 February 2020. By mid- February, you were conducting internet searches on ways to induce a miscarriage. By the end of February, you were searching for abortion services. Your search on 25 February indicated that you then believed that you were 23 weeks pregnant. Your internet searches continued sporadically through March and April 2020. On 24 April, you searched “I need to have an abortion but I’m past 24 weeks.”

4. On 6 May, you consulted the telemedical service provided by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. You gave false answers that would have indicated that your pregnancy was 7 weeks and 4 days in length. Abortifacient drugs were then posted out to you.

5. On 9 May, you took mifepristone. That same day you conducted internet searches suggesting that you were 28 weeks pregnant. You then took the misoprostol at around 1pm on 11 May. Two emergency calls were made for medical attention that afternoon and evening. Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm. Further internet searches that evening suggested that you believed that you were 30 weeks pregnant.

 

[Hyacinthsquash]

I really really am in two minds. My eldest was born at the gestation of her baby so it’s hard to imagine thinking you can take some pills to make that pregnancy just ‘go away’. I do believe she must have been in some turmoil to have so long between googling, ordering pills and then ultimately taking them. Who knows what was happening while she was stuck in lockdown with her ex partner. It’s a really sad situation and although I agree with her being punished, I’m not sure a jail term is the right thing. Ultimately her children are now being punished as well. A sad case all round.

 

[daydreamer95]

Case of mother who bought same pills for daughter aged 15 online

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5e180d2d2c94e03bea03560d

This is so open to abuse I can’t see how less care would ever be good for any woman or teenage girl

 

[JoeBloggs]

Case of mother who bought same pills for daughter aged 15 online

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5e180d2d2c94e03bea03560d

This is so open to abuse I can’t see how less care would ever be good for any woman or teenage girl

This is slightly different, it happened at a time that any abortion was illegal in Northern Ireland. The law has only recently changed, and still women can not obtain the services. This is why so many Irish women come to England. There is a very good dramatisation of three abortion cases in Ireland while it was illegal. Very interesting watching.
---

BBC One - Three Families

The story behind the lifting of Northern Ireland’s restrictive abortion law in 2019.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[prozacprincess]

Case of mother who bought same pills for daughter aged 15 online

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5e180d2d2c94e03bea03560d

This is so open to abuse I can’t see how less care would ever be good for any woman or teenage girl

This case was in Northern Ireland where until recently abortion was illegal. It was, and in fact still is fairly common for women to either travel to England for abortion services or obtain drugs via a charity that supports women in countries where abortion is still illegal … I myself had to avail of this service.

Unfortunately even though the law has now changed on paper here, a hospital does not actually have to provide abortion services and most use excuses such as funding or staffing to avoid doing so.

 

[daydreamer95]

This case was in Northern Ireland where until recently abortion was illegal. It was, and in fact still is fairly common for women to either travel to England for abortion services or obtain drugs via a charity that supports women in countries where abortion is still illegal … I myself had to avail of this service.

Unfortunately even though the law has now changed on paper here, a hospital does not actually have to provide abortion services and most use excuses such as funding or staffing to avoid doing so.

I appreciate the difficulty of their circumstances the reason I posted this case was difference in scenario it isn’t one person making the decision obtaining and taking themselves it’s a mother procuring and giving to her 15 year old daughter

They discussed going to England it would have been better if she received proper care imo

Mother believed it was legal and safe to give to her daughter without seeing anybody


[5] as an alternative to travelling to England for a termination. The mother also understood from her sister that a friend of hers had taken these tablets without complication. This led her to believe that they were safe and widely used. She also, in trying to obtain information to assist her daughter, read about the use of the pills on the British Pregnancy Advisory Service website.

[6] The mother’s case is that when she was advised about obtaining ‘abortion pills’ on the internet she was not made aware that it was illegal to obtain them and the information she was given suggested that this was a safe and reliable method of procuring a miscarriage.

 

[Sea]

I'm shifting more on anger at her actions and add in that she has already had other 2 unwanted pregnancies (1 aborted and 1 given up for adoption). I don't know the timeline of those pregnancies - if they were before, between or after her other children living at home. Nor do I know the circumstances of those other pregnancies/child so I might have more sympathy if know why.

I also feel sympathy specifically for the mindfxxk of the pandemic and her probably feeling helpless, lost and alone.

But she was already on the cusp/late for abortion just before the lock down.

im pro abortion and I'm not for giving up unwanted children into the care system, but she ultimately killed a pregnancy at 32/34 weeks.

I also think she needs to have punishment, and I think the health organisations pleading for this case are overstepping.

It's emotionally conflicting and complicated as a detached outsider, so what she was going through...

 

[daydreamer95]

I'm shifting more on anger at her actions and add in that she has already had other 2 unwanted pregnancies (1 aborted and 1 given up for adoption). I don't know the timeline of those pregnancies - if they were before, between or after her other children living at home. Nor do I know the circumstances of those other pregnancies/child so I might have more sympathy if know why.

The mention of Ms Catt previous abortion and adoption related to another case referred to for sentencing Regina v Catt it’s confusing and has been mixed up by me also:

13. Ms Catt was 36 and had two young children. She had aborted a previous pregnancy just before 24 weeks and given up a further baby for adoption. She obtained abortifacient drugs from an online retailer and took the drugs at full term. The body was never recovered. Allowing Ms Catt’s appeal against sentence, the Court of Appeal concluded that the appropriate sentence after trial was 5 years’ imprisonment which was reduced to 31⁄2 years to reflect credit for her guilty plea.


The case of mother sentenced to 28 months doesn’t include prior history of abortion it says she has three children cared for by her, the timeline of when she knew and made online searches is 3-5 here under spoiler

Spoiler: 3-5

3. Some weeks after that change in the law, you obtained abortion drugs by a telephone consultation designed only for abortions in the first ten weeks. You were in fact 32-34 weeks pregnant and well beyond the point at which you could lawfully obtain an abortion. Messages found on your phone indicate that you had known of your pregnancy for about three months on 1 February 2020. By mid- February, you were conducting internet searches on ways to induce a miscarriage. By the end of February, you were searching for abortion services. Your search on 25 February indicated that you then believed that you were 23 weeks pregnant. Your internet searches continued sporadically through March and April 2020. On 24 April, you searched “I need to have an abortion but I’m past 24 weeks.”

4. On 6 May, you consulted the telemedical service provided by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. You gave false answers that would have indicated that your pregnancy was 7 weeks and 4 days in length. Abortifacient drugs were then posted out to you.

5. On 9 May, you took mifepristone. That same day you conducted internet searches suggesting that you were 28 weeks pregnant. You then took the misoprostol at around 1pm on 11 May. Two emergency calls were made for medical attention that afternoon and evening. Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm. Further internet searches that evening suggested that you believed that you were 30 weeks pregnant.

18-21 These points might also help to understand the timeline under spoiler

Spoiler: 18-21

18. There are no additional aggravating features in this case.

19. You are now aged 44 and have no previous convictions. This offence was committed against the backdrop of the first and most intense phase of lockdown at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic. Forced to stay at home, you moved back in with your long- term but estranged partner while carrying another man’s child. You were, I accept, in emotional turmoil as you sought to hide the pregnancy.

20.I have carefully considered psychiatric reports from Drs Gupta and Kennedy, the Pre-Sentence Report; and letters from your former partner, the baby’s father and a teacher at your son’s school. You were not suffering from any serious mental illness at the time of this offence. I accept, however, that there is evidence of emotionally unstable personality traits. More significantly, I accept that you feel very deep and genuine remorse for your actions. You are wracked by guilt and have suffered depression. I also accept that you had a very deep emotional attachment to your unborn child and that you are plagued by nightmares and flashbacks to seeing your dead child’s face.

Spoiler: 18-21

21. I also take into account the fact that you are a good mother to three children who would suffer from your imprisonment. One of your children himself has special needs which means that he is particularly reliant upon your love and support.

 

[Sea]

@daydreamer95 thank you for that, good to have correct information

 

[JoeBloggs]

I feel her partner (ex?) might have had more involvement. She moves in with him either just before becoming pregnant or when just pregnant. Was he forcing her to keep the pregnancy? She toyed with the idea for months before making her decision.

 

[daydreamer95]

I’m thinking the same thing or at least there’s something we don’t know @JoeBloggs

The person who reported possible miscarriage to get first ambulance has been left vague there’s no follow on to say this is why they called or this is how the woman responded after ambulance left the first time why is that?

Both calls don’t say who called if second call was the mother wouldn’t they say she sought medical treatment?

Two emergency calls were made for medical attention that afternoon and evening. Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage.


Here it refers to her state of mind the judge read letters from former and current partner:

20.I have carefully considered psychiatric reports from Drs Gupta and Kennedy, the Pre-Sentence Report; and letters from your former partner, the baby’s father and a teacher at your son’s school. You were not suffering from any serious mental illness at the time of this offence


So why isn’t there anything about the person who made calls talking about her reaction or what made them suspect miscarriage in the first place?