Discussion of the recent case in the news.
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Thank you Piff puff puff for making thread
I will find the article and other docs to repost here
I can’t believe anyone is defending the decision of the mother. She should have given that baby up for adoption as she had to give birth regardless. Should be treated as a newborn murder imo.
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I’ve seen somebody say there should be no limit nothing about conditions and lots saying no woman should be forced to give birth, in this case what does that mean it’s ok?
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Imo the baby had to come out one way or another so I don’t see how that argument that women shouldn’t have to give birth is null.
This case is so awful for all involved, especially the poor baby. The service should never have been allowed to just send abortion pills in the post. They should be taken under medical supervision after a scan to confirm the date and viability of the pregnancy . The woman is to blame too if she knew how far along she was but lied to obtain the tablets.
My main fear regarding this story is the effect it could have for women seeking a termination if the government decide to use this as an example of how things need changing.
The company that sent the tablets needs to be criminally charged for not safeguarding. The NHS also for neglect of public duty.
As for the woman, I agree with the sentencing. A crime was committed and no one knows where the baby's body ended up as I understand.
It's very sad but at the end of the day criminals are punished and go to jail. I heard someone discussing it on the radio saying she's not a danger to the public so she shouldn't be there but that's not the only reason people get sent to jail.
As for the woman, I agree with the sentencing. A crime was committed and no one knows where the baby's body ended up as I understand.
It's very sad but at the end of the day criminals are punished and go to jail. I heard someone discussing it on the radio saying she's not a danger to the public so she shouldn't be there but that's not the only reason people get sent to jail.
I am absolutely sick of people trying to use this case to scaremonger against campaigning for necessary changes to the law: "UK abortion laws are permissive enough already, trying to change them and backfire could get them rolled back!" The problem with the law is that abortion is, by default, still a crime but with some exceptions - all of which take autonomy away from a woman (has to be approved by two doctors, and if the baby is viable then they have to make a case that something is "wrong" with the mother.) The law should be changed to make abortion legal by default. That is a separate issue from what this woman has done. I don't think most people would approve of her actions, however, there's now a very real risk that the case will lead to increased prosecution of women for abortions even within the term limit because the law says it's still a crime
I also don't like seeing it argued "why didn't she just have the baby adopted?" Many children languish in the care system forever and have horrible lives. This one probably would have had it easier because white baby girls are the most "desirable" for adoption but it still doesn't guarantee anything other than a difficult start in life at best
I also don't like seeing it argued "why didn't she just have the baby adopted?" Many children languish in the care system forever and have horrible lives. This one probably would have had it easier because white baby girls are the most "desirable" for adoption but it still doesn't guarantee anything other than a difficult start in life at best
That's not true - the baby was delivered in hospital and there was a post-mortem (with evidence used in the prosecution.) The "body not found" refers to another case that the judge consulted for sentencing guidelines
It says about the baby in daydreamers post. I'm confused as I thought that was the transcript from the woman's case?
That's the judge talking about R v Catt, the other case he's comparing this one to (it is a bit confusing!) Here's the judgement in that case. Long story short a woman was jailed for terminating a pregnancy past the legal limit and an aggravating factor was that she repeatedly refused to say what she'd done with the body. In this case the judge used it as a guide for sentencing
Ok
I'm glad the body was recovered at least.Yep, it's been widely reported that the body was examined and the evidence used in court, presumably the body was released to family for funeral etc once that was doneOk
Ok
Number 7 the details of post-mortem 32-35 weeks
Other case used for sentencing said to be at 24 weeks body never recovered
What was she thinking? There was never going to be a good outcome to this sorry mess.
She was 44 and already had 3 kids, so she wasn't a silly young girl who didn't know what she was doing.
Can't believe people are defending her there is an abortion cut off date for a reason she effectively murdered her own baby, 2 years in prison is nothing.
She was 44 and already had 3 kids, so she wasn't a silly young girl who didn't know what she was doing.
Can't believe people are defending her there is an abortion cut off date for a reason she effectively murdered her own baby, 2 years in prison is nothing.
The NHS saves money the provider makes money what do women get excellent care?
Research paper
The temporary measure listed as ending 29.08.22
www.gov.uk
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Calls for reform due to mother being jailed this is much of the reporting
healthpolicy-watch.news
Research paper
The temporary measure listed as ending 29.08.22
England to return to pre-pandemic system for early abortions
The approval allowing women to take both pills for early medical abortion at home will return to pre-pandemic arrangements at midnight on 29 August.
Calls for reform due to mother being jailed this is much of the reporting
Call For Legal Reform After UK Woman Is Jailed Under 1861 Abortion Law - Health Policy Watch
There have been calls for abortion law reforms in the UK after a woman was sentenced to 28 months in prison on Monday for carrying out an abortion after the
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You could reform the law so that abortion is legal and still have the same 24-week limit, with a separate criminal offence for people who carry out abortions past that limit. (Or include it under this offence of "child destruction.") That's got to be a better solution than either "remove any legal limit on abortion whatsoever" or "make no changes and keep abortion a crime" ...
I think it is a sad case all round. She obviously knew she was pregnant, she is a slim, toned looking woman. It would have been very obvious to her that she was further along than she said she was, so she was lying. I am pro-choice and pro-abortion but in this case, I just don't know, the lying from her, the fact the baby could have been born and lived.
Clearly I am not in the majority here, but frankly a jail sentence for her is purely to make an example of her. Jail is to rehabilitate people, she does not need rehabilitating. She was a woman in clearly a very difficult situation, perhaps with mental health issues. She was in a situation which drove her to dire actions. They have now taken her away from her three children, with needs who need her. What impact will that have on them and her when she returns?
I totally accept what she did was wrong, however in this case, the life of one unborn child has been taken as to be the most important over her three children and her. There are 80,000 children currently in care in the UK, many who are struggling and currently campaigning to how much it effects their life even once they are out of care.
There is no way that she took this decision lightly, she clearly could not access the care she needed due to the pandemic and that is not her fault. She needs help yes, but I do not agree with jail nor with taking a mother away from her children when they state she is a good mother.
I totally accept what she did was wrong, however in this case, the life of one unborn child has been taken as to be the most important over her three children and her. There are 80,000 children currently in care in the UK, many who are struggling and currently campaigning to how much it effects their life even once they are out of care.
There is no way that she took this decision lightly, she clearly could not access the care she needed due to the pandemic and that is not her fault. She needs help yes, but I do not agree with jail nor with taking a mother away from her children when they state she is a good mother.
Yup. She was 8 months gone wasn't she, the baby was almost ready to be born.
Details from case:
Post-mortem examination confirmed that the pregnancy was between 32-34 weeks
5. On 9 May, you took mifepristone. That same day you conducted internet searches suggesting that you were 28 weeks pregnant. You then took the misoprostol at around 1pm on 11 May. Two emergency calls were made for medical attention that afternoon and evening. Paramedics attended at 4.25pm in response to a report that you might be having a miscarriage. You gave the paramedics false information and, not realising that you were pregnant, they left. The second call was made at 6.39pm shortly before your daughter, Lily, was stillborn. Paramedics attended at 7pm but all attempts at resuscitation failed and Lily was pronounced dead at 7.45pm. Further internet searches that evening suggested that you believed that you were 30 weeks pregnant.
6. You originally maintained to medical staff that you were unaware that you were pregnant. You later told a midwife that you had obtained drugs from an abortion clinic and that you believed that you were in the early stages of pregnancy. You said that you realised that you needed to speak to the police. When you did so, you admitted taking abortifacient drugs and that Lily could have been conceived in either October or December 2019, but you maintained that you did not know how far into the pregnancy you had been.
7. Post-mortem examination confirmed that the pregnancy was between 32-34 weeks' gestation at the time of this offence. There was no sign of natural disease or trauma that could explain her death. In police interview, you falsely maintained that the pregnancy was less advanced than you plainly knew it was.
I am really struggling with my thoughts on this case.
I can't imagine any woman would make the decision to take this medicine lightly, knowing full well that they would have to give birth to an almost term baby. I know it's not something I could do and I can only imagine she was really struggling.
I do think there needs to be action taken to stop others doing this at such a late stage, but I'm not 100% sure prison is the right place for her.
I can't imagine any woman would make the decision to take this medicine lightly, knowing full well that they would have to give birth to an almost term baby. I know it's not something I could do and I can only imagine she was really struggling.
I do think there needs to be action taken to stop others doing this at such a late stage, but I'm not 100% sure prison is the right place for her.