If I remember rightly the same was said about Jon Venables who was manipulated by and complied to Robert Thompson.FS & SB were charged with causing or allowing a death very shortly after Star died. She hadn’t had the IQ test then.
I think when a child dies and there are two suspects (parents and/or partner of parent) it’s standard to charge both with this charge. From what I understand, it’s why this charge came in. Technically, FS could be guilty of murder depending on what the jury decide. It’s not for the police to decide, she has to be tried. And there is a fair amount of evidence that she could be guilty of allowing the death by failing to protect Star. I’m not hopeful that an average jury would have sufficient knowledge of the interplay between trauma, intelligence and compliance to understand just how limited she may have been in her ability to protect Star.
Today will surely be tough with very damning closing arguments from prosecution.
Delaying getting medical help shouldn’t really determine the sentence. It made no difference to whether Star would have died or not.
It isn’t an excuse though - it’s an important factor in understanding her capacity. It’s also not just low IQ alone, it’s the combination of that and the high compliance that made her particularly vulnerable to SBs manipulation.
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If I remember rightly the same was said about Jon Venables who was manipulated by and complied to Robert Thompson.
Are some of you on here actually defending Frankie? Even looking at her as if she was a victim? She allowed her baby to be abused, she took part in some of the abuse, she would tell Brockhill when Star was "misbehaving" when Brockhill wasn't there. She is no victim, she may not of caused physical harm in the same way Brockhill did but she certainly is no victim. As for her intelligence she may not of been the brightest bulb but she was switched on enough to know to lie and cover for herself. Let's not forget in her daughters last minutes alive she took her sweet time calling for help. She failed her daughter in life and by keeping quiet about what happened that day she's failing her in her death too. As I fully believe she saw exactly what happened when Star died. Guilty on all counts for the both of them.
Jon Venables was actively involved in the kidnap and murder of James though. There is no proof that Frankie was involved in Star’s death or even knew how it happened. Two completely different cases and two different people. I don’t think it’s fair to try and compare the two.
Oh are they? I thought they were the same people and same case
I don't believe Frankie dealt the fatal blow but she was actively involved in some of the abuse and admitted to being suspicious yet continued to put her child in danger
I think for a lot of people, and I count myself in this, is the length of time this all took place over. It was almost a year of abuse and pain that Star suffered.
Where a lot of us have a hard time simply giving FS the benefit of the doubt on DV and IQ grounds is 4 fold:
1 - it was over such a long time that ignoring the pain, frequent bruising, and obvious distress Star was in for that long is downright irresponsible and unfathomable, regardless of whether she has the lowest IQ imaginable, even a 9 year old would take their responsibilities for a child at least a little more appropriately and have a good degree more interest in their child's wellbeing. Whilst SB would've been an awful and manipulative person FS has frequently stated throughout this trial "my first priority was always Star", if that was truly the case at the time then Star was not just let down by her mum she was failed completely.
2 - FS did show an ability to tell right from wrong in relation t the treatment of her daughter, whilst SB had her under a spell for the most part FS showed an ability to recognise when SB was doing something wrong at times. FS stated she'd often lie to SB about putting Star on the wall as she knew it was wrong, FS stated that she'd send pictures of her being firm with Star just for SB and then wouldn't ever continue that. In other words she admitted to knowing at the time at least some of what SB was doing was wrong, that at least some of her behaviour was cruel/damaging, yet she still continued on with not just seeing SB but actively putting Star in her care regularly.
3 - The amount of times she actively avoided and lied to SS and to family and Drs in order to avoid Star being seen to / help being given. Yes on occasion SB would've played a big role in convincing her not to do this. However there was also several times where SB was not involved in the avoidance process. FS said she didn't want her daughter being taken away if they found something wrong with her so she just didn't get her the help she needed on those grounds. People reached out to her and tried numerous ways to help Star, and whilst SB definitely played a big role in FS avoiding some offers of help, FS had enough occasions whereby it was her own volition that cost Star valuable help.
4 - The evidence suggests she was knowingly physically abusive to Star at times too. The admittance that she "holds Star's head under water", the finger biting incident, and the supposed "choke slamming technique" were all physically abusive and grotesque actions knowingly undertaken by FS upon Star. Whilst she frequently denies she was ever physical, the evidence clearly suggests this was a lie, coupled with the countless other lies she is known to have told too it's easy to see how she's lying in that case too. Whilst she clearly wasn't anywhere near as physically abusive to Star as SB was, she knowingly participated in some physically abusive acts that she would've known were wrong and cruel at the time.
So whilst SB is clearly vile and the main reason for Star's death, and she deserves to be found guilty of murder, the reasons above are why a lot of us feel FS deserves a custodial sentence too. Whilst no doubt influenced by SB and struggled without much help for the most part, she had a duty of care to Star that even with her low intellect, she fell massively short of.
Where a lot of us have a hard time simply giving FS the benefit of the doubt on DV and IQ grounds is 4 fold:
1 - it was over such a long time that ignoring the pain, frequent bruising, and obvious distress Star was in for that long is downright irresponsible and unfathomable, regardless of whether she has the lowest IQ imaginable, even a 9 year old would take their responsibilities for a child at least a little more appropriately and have a good degree more interest in their child's wellbeing. Whilst SB would've been an awful and manipulative person FS has frequently stated throughout this trial "my first priority was always Star", if that was truly the case at the time then Star was not just let down by her mum she was failed completely.
2 - FS did show an ability to tell right from wrong in relation t the treatment of her daughter, whilst SB had her under a spell for the most part FS showed an ability to recognise when SB was doing something wrong at times. FS stated she'd often lie to SB about putting Star on the wall as she knew it was wrong, FS stated that she'd send pictures of her being firm with Star just for SB and then wouldn't ever continue that. In other words she admitted to knowing at the time at least some of what SB was doing was wrong, that at least some of her behaviour was cruel/damaging, yet she still continued on with not just seeing SB but actively putting Star in her care regularly.
3 - The amount of times she actively avoided and lied to SS and to family and Drs in order to avoid Star being seen to / help being given. Yes on occasion SB would've played a big role in convincing her not to do this. However there was also several times where SB was not involved in the avoidance process. FS said she didn't want her daughter being taken away if they found something wrong with her so she just didn't get her the help she needed on those grounds. People reached out to her and tried numerous ways to help Star, and whilst SB definitely played a big role in FS avoiding some offers of help, FS had enough occasions whereby it was her own volition that cost Star valuable help.
4 - The evidence suggests she was knowingly physically abusive to Star at times too. The admittance that she "holds Star's head under water", the finger biting incident, and the supposed "choke slamming technique" were all physically abusive and grotesque actions knowingly undertaken by FS upon Star. Whilst she frequently denies she was ever physical, the evidence clearly suggests this was a lie, coupled with the countless other lies she is known to have told too it's easy to see how she's lying in that case too. Whilst she clearly wasn't anywhere near as physically abusive to Star as SB was, she knowingly participated in some physically abusive acts that she would've known were wrong and cruel at the time.
So whilst SB is clearly vile and the main reason for Star's death, and she deserves to be found guilty of murder, the reasons above are why a lot of us feel FS deserves a custodial sentence too. Whilst no doubt influenced by SB and struggled without much help for the most part, she had a duty of care to Star that even with her low intellect, she fell massively short of.
If you come on these threads you’re going to get a variety of opinions - don’t start attacking other users. Very few people are defending FS on here, just trying to be empathetic and make sense of why she failed to act. With the recent evidence coming out and the history of DV, it’s not as black and white as you might think.
Enough with the sarcasm. No need.Oh are they? I thought they were the same people and same case
I don't believe Frankie dealt the fatal blow but she was actively involved in some of the abuse and admitted to being suspicious yet continued to put her child in danger
She was and still is a victim of sb. she Was attacked and controlled at the very least
Almost didn’t recognise you with your new ppTrial Day 30:
LIVE: Star Hobson murder trial Day 30 - prosecution closing speech to begin
Live updates from the trial of Frankie Smith and Savannah Brockhill, accused of murdering 16-month-old Star Hobson on September 22, 2020www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk
If you break into someone's house with a friend and ur friend fights with and kills the homeowner you will also be charged with murder or manslaughter...
So how is this any different theres many examples of her hurting star and evidence she knew SB was
Equally guilty
So how is this any different theres many examples of her hurting star and evidence she knew SB was
Equally guilty
It isn’t about “giving her the benefit of the doubt” though. It has to be beyond all reasonable doubt.
Just getting into the festive spirit.
Literally not how the law works though and the judge should explain that being guilty of cruelty does not equal guilty of murder.
She is a victim, that’s a fact whether some people like it or not. It’s also a fact that being able to lie doesn’t make someone smart.
No one is really ‘defending’ her but the facts presented to us throughout the trial go a long way to explain how she ended up where she is today. It’s called nuance.
Edit: What evidence have you been privy to that proves FS murdered Star?
Wouldn’t be a trial day without ‘a slight delay to proceedings getting underway’…
I was literally just thinking this. I was catching up this morning thinking it’s nice to read all these lengthy and detailed posts on both sides. Now it’s straight back to “why are people defending FS” almost 9 threads deep and we are back here again. Oh and how can I forget dismissing FS as a victim again.
Yes I accept that, but the points I mentioned put it beyond reasonable doubt for a lot of us that she "allowed" the death of her child. Hence charged on that at least
@LittleMy thanks for always keeping a level head and safe space for everyone to express their opinions.
I'm looking forward to AMs closing statement. I really hope SB is found guilty. FS's defence was really sad for me to read, yes she was neglectful and cruel, but I'm almost 100% sure she's not a murderer.
SBs Facebook post made me vom in my mouth a little.
I'm looking forward to AMs closing statement. I really hope SB is found guilty. FS's defence was really sad for me to read, yes she was neglectful and cruel, but I'm almost 100% sure she's not a murderer.
SBs Facebook post made me vom in my mouth a little.
Victim of what sorry? What is she a victim of? Her own bad decisions. She turnt a blind eye to the abuse of her child, she knew it was wrong. She was capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong. She carried out some of the abuse. I disagree she was a victim at all. Hopefully the jury does too.
I hear you I do! I also appreciate the way you put your points across. They are always well worded and thought provoking. I still havn’t got round to explaining why I disagree, I have a headache coming on so will do it later when I can process it. I just know the jury are going to have a hell of a job when it comes to FS. I can see where you are coming I really do and also understand why so many feel the same way. Today will be interesting.
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