Real Life Crime and Murder #15

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In an awful situation like this we look for answers in a bid to understand what happened so that we can feel safer. As she is so ‘normal’ and ‘beige’ we can’t get our head around why this happened and want to make sense of it.
One thing that struck me from panorama and I forgot about until now was the fact she held onto those notes despite knowing she was under suspicion
The handover notes and other bits the police found as well
I think they were trophies. Serial killers like to keep trophies to help them to relive their crimes. I think she was arrogant enough to think she wasn’t going to get caught. I would imagine that the hospital backing her and ignoring the consultants concerns would probably have made her feel quite untouchable.
 
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No but I didn’t say it was the only factor. I was speaking generally. In Letby’s case obviously poverty wasn’t the driving factor. But I’d bet my life on something else happening in that household.
mmmm, I agree with you. I read somewhere (have no source to confirm) that LL’s two half siblings from her father’s first marriage are estranged from him. I’d be quite interested to know their reasons.

I enjoyed your posts about ACEs and I found them very insightful. I mostly agree. Two points I would add to the discussion:

1. I do believe that some people are just born “bad”. Yes I agree it’s rare but it happens. I reckon it’s physical. Some brain chemical or brain synapse is just not firing right. I understand that some recent studies posit a physical cause for psychopathy. Some brain deformation. Having said that the brain is so plastic, so adaptable to life events, that such a deformation could equally be caused by childhood trauma. We still know so very little about the human brain. (I personally believe that Evil exists in the world and that a very few individuals are born evil. Although I appreciate that’s not a fashionable opinion these days.)
2. I agree that most (if not all) violent criminals have trauma in their past. But then others who have trauma don’t take it out on other people. They may well live dysfunctional lives with MH issues/addiction/ self harm etc. but there must be something that separates traumatised people who mainly harm themselves, from traumatised people who then go on to harm, maim or kill others.
 
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In an awful situation like this we look for answers in a bid to understand what happened so that we can feel safer. As she is so ‘normal’ and ‘beige’ we can’t get our head around why this happened and want to make sense of it.

I think they were trophies. Serial killers like to keep trophies to help them to relive their crimes. I think she was arrogant enough to think she wasn’t going to get caught. I would imagine that the hospital backing her and ignoring the consultants concerns would probably have made her feel quite untouchable.
Youve got it spot on there when it comes to horrific crimes like this, you want there to be an answer as a hope it wouldn't happen again. Like with Beverly Allit for example she had very strange behaviours throughout her life before she murdered so you would be able to spot someone like that in future whereas with LL people are so shocked and would never believe it until they heard all the evidence so it's scarier that she was pretty much hidden in plain sight and there is no clear motive
 
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I agree with you. I read somewhere (have no source to confirm) that LL’s two half siblings from her father’s first marriage are estranged from him. I’d be quite interested to know their reasons.
Ah I thought it was interesting that the DM made a point of saying she was born five months after her parents got married but didn’t realise that was potentially because he had been married and had a family before as they’ve always also said she was raised as an only child

interesting choice of wording again I suppose now I think of it that they felt the need to point that out, raised as an only child but not actually one as there are siblings there
 
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In an awful situation like this we look for answers in a bid to understand what happened so that we can feel safer. As she is so ‘normal’ and ‘beige’ we can’t get our head around why this happened and want to make sense of it.

I think they were trophies. Serial killers like to keep trophies to help them to relive their crimes. I think she was arrogant enough to think she wasn’t going to get caught. I would imagine that the hospital backing her and ignoring the consultants concerns would probably have made her feel quite untouchable.
She did a lot of “classic” serial killer-y things tbh. As you point out she kept trophies. She also kept returning to the scenes of her crimes - returning to visit the parents of her victims whilst they were trying to say goodbye to their late children;returning to the ward and the scene of collapses the day after when she was not on shift; cyberstalking the parents.

Lots of killers kept diaries/notes (eg Diane Downs, Charles Manson) or wrote letters (Zodiac, Jack the Ripper).

Not all serial killers are oddball loners. Ted Bundy was, apparently, a lovely, popular guy (when he wasn’t grabbing women off the street and tossing them into the boot of his car, at any rate). Peter Sutcliffe had a pretty decent circle of friends. He and Sonia had dinner parties, ffs. John Wayne Gacy, pillar of the community.

Im not convinced there is a simple singular profile of what a serial killer is, the FBI came up with one in the 1970s (single white male loner under 35) but I reckon criminology has moved on a lot since then.
 
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Ah I thought it was interesting that the DM made a point of saying she was born five months after her parents got married but didn’t realise that was potentially because he had been married and had a family before as they’ve always also said she was raised as an only child

interesting choice of wording again I suppose now I think of it that they felt the need to point that out, raised as an only child but actually there are siblings there
Is that right she has half sibling’s?
I heard it as a conceived out of wedlock dig
 
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I’ve no idea just quoted @moldwarp
I’d not heard it before but the dedicated threads went way too fast for me to follow
Yes please don’t take it as a fact, I read it on Reddit but it was totally unsourced and like third hand so probably bollocks 🤷🏻‍♀️
 
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mmmm, I agree with you. I read somewhere (have no source to confirm) that LL’s two half siblings from her father’s first marriage are estranged from him. I’d be quite interested to know their reasons.

I enjoyed your posts about ACEs and I found them very insightful. I mostly agree. Two points I would add to the discussion:

1. I do believe that some people are just born “bad”. Yes I agree it’s rare but it happens. I reckon it’s physical. Some brain chemical or brain synapse is just not firing right. I understand that some recent studies posit a physical cause for psychopathy. Some brain deformation. Having said that the brain is so plastic, so adaptable to life events, that such a deformation could equally be caused by childhood trauma. We still know so very little about the human brain. (I personally believe that Evil exists in the world and that a very few individuals are born evil. Although I appreciate that’s not a fashionable opinion these days.)
2. I agree that most (if not all) violent criminals have trauma in their past. But then others who have trauma don’t take it out on other people. They may well live dysfunctional lives with MH issues/addiction/ self harm etc. but there must be something that separates traumatised people who mainly harm themselves, from traumatised people who then go on to harm, maim or kill others.
Possibly their brain development? If a child is neglected/abused before a certain age, a bit of their brain doesn't develop: the bit which enables compassion and empathy. While these are generally taught to some degree, most well developed children do have them (sharing, concern if another child is hurt, etc).

Between this, little Sara and the horrific cases of recent child abuse the world feels a very, very dark place.
 
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I worked in social care for older people for years.

Babies dying in those circumstances was unusual and that seems to have been what triggered suspicions.

But older people die unexpectedly all the time. This case has me wondering if there are any people helping old dears on their way!!!

Obviously Shipman did this for years before he got greedy and tripped himself up.

Before I would have said it was preposterous that a serial killer could be stalking hospital wards but now, I'm not so sure!!!
 
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I honestly don’t know how you’d ever come to terms with what LL did… if you were one of the parents, to loose your baby for no real reason at all. To not even be able to have your impact statement heard by this woman. I can’t even imagine.

and all the colleagues she lied to and manipulated… how would your trust ever recover from that? How would you ever be able to trust your own judgement? You’d constantly be wondering if you’d done X or Y might you have been able to stop her sooner? Prof David Wilson called them secondary victims, and they really are.

thank god for the consultants who insisted on her being looked into, despite being met with resistance from management. The management heads have blood on their hands, quite literally.
 
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I think with the Lucy Letby case, in my opinion, I am looking for answers because I find it so horrifying. I read that she shoved hard plastic tubes down new born babies throats?! I can’t get my head around why someone would do that. And I think part of it (again this is just what I feel) that makes it feel even harder to understand is because she’s a woman, it seems to go against nature that a woman working as a midwife could destroy something so precious as a newborn baby. I don’t know if that’s internalised misogyny on my part or what. I just find it so hard to make sense of and she hasn’t said why she did it and… well it’s just so utterly upsetting.
 
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Ah I thought it was interesting that the DM made a point of saying she was born five months after her parents got married but didn’t realise that was potentially because he had been married and had a family before as they’ve always also said she was raised as an only child

interesting choice of wording again I suppose now I think of it that they felt the need to point that out, raised as an only child but not actually one as there are siblings there
my understanding was that they were very Christian… so not supposed to be having sex outside of marriage and all that?

I didn’t realise she had half siblings. It’s be fascinating to hear their perspective, though I don’t blame them for wanting to stay well out of it.
 
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I couldn't listen to the victim impact statements. My heart is truly broken for those babies and their parents. Letby should have them piped into her cell at least so she can't avoid hearing their words.
 
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mmmm, I agree with you. I read somewhere (have no source to confirm) that LL’s two half siblings from her father’s first marriage are estranged from him. I’d be quite interested to know their reasons.

I enjoyed your posts about ACEs and I found them very insightful. I mostly agree. Two points I would add to the discussion:

1. I do believe that some people are just born “bad”. Yes I agree it’s rare but it happens. I reckon it’s physical. Some brain chemical or brain synapse is just not firing right. I understand that some recent studies posit a physical cause for psychopathy. Some brain deformation. Having said that the brain is so plastic, so adaptable to life events, that such a deformation could equally be caused by childhood trauma. We still know so very little about the human brain. (I personally believe that Evil exists in the world and that a very few individuals are born evil. Although I appreciate that’s not a fashionable opinion these days.)
2. I agree that most (if not all) violent criminals have trauma in their past. But then others who have trauma don’t take it out on other people. They may well live dysfunctional lives with MH issues/addiction/ self harm etc. but there must be something that separates traumatised people who mainly harm themselves, from traumatised people who then go on to harm, maim or kill others.
I was brought up in religion, and so have always been pretty spiritual. My superstitious Irish grandmother believe that when you mistreated someone horrifically, they lost a part of their soul, and it left them open to evil or possession.

the spiritual part of me believes in evil in those terms.

the rational, logical part of me sees it as a preventable human condition. That if a child is stripped of their humanity they will develop maladaptive coping mechanisms that will diminish their empathy towards others and make them a risk to society.

I prefer to focus on the latter because… if we dismiss someone as “evil” then we attribute it to an other worldly entity or chance, with the implication that it’s out of our hands. Whereas I strongly believe it is firmly in our hands (collectively) to prevent these types of individuals from being turned into monsters.

I will say that some individuals I’ve met with PDs (some diagnosed, some not) just do give me the creeps and make my skin come out in goosebumps. They aren’t even upleasant or threatening. One guy I came into contact with… wasn’t violent or evil…he was involved in a crime and being charged… but it wasn’t an especially emotive or awful crime. there was something soulless about him that made my inner alarm bells freak out when I was in his presence.

it was like everything around him just… soured. The people he came into contact with, he just destroyed. It was like he was sucking the energy out of them. His wife, his step kids, buisness partners… they all got dragged into his nonsense. Like a black hole, bad things just seemed to happen all around him. (It’s making me shiver just thinking about him). It sounds crazy but it almost felt supernatural at times.

Others I’ve met seemed to do inexplicable well in life… one guy was corrupt and yet had gone through life like teflon. Dirt never seemed to cling to him. He always seemed to escape any sort of negative consequences for his actions (until of course he ended up in the criminal justice system, which is how I came into contact with him). It really felt like he’d made a literal deal with the devil. He’d amassed huge wealth but just seemed dead inside. It was a source of arrogance for him, not a source of happiness.
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I think with the Lucy Letby case, in my opinion, I am looking for answers because I find it so horrifying. I read that she shoved hard plastic tubes down new born babies throats?! I can’t get my head around why someone would do that. And I think part of it (again this is just what I feel) that makes it feel even harder to understand is because she’s a woman, it seems to go against nature that a woman working as a midwife could destroy something so precious as a newborn baby. I don’t know if that’s internalised misogyny on my part or what. I just find it so hard to make sense of and she hasn’t said why she did it and… well it’s just so utterly upsetting.
it goes against every natural normal instinct which is to care for babies.
 
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She did a lot of “classic” serial killer-y things tbh. As you point out she kept trophies. She also kept returning to the scenes of her crimes - returning to visit the parents of her victims whilst they were trying to say goodbye to their late children;returning to the ward and the scene of collapses the day after when she was not on shift; cyberstalking the parents.

Lots of killers kept diaries/notes (eg Diane Downs, Charles Manson) or wrote letters (Zodiac, Jack the Ripper).

Not all serial killers are oddball loners. Ted Bundy was, apparently, a lovely, popular guy (when he wasn’t grabbing women off the street and tossing them into the boot of his car, at any rate). Peter Sutcliffe had a pretty decent circle of friends. He and Sonia had dinner parties, ffs. John Wayne Gacy, pillar of the community.

Im not convinced there is a simple singular profile of what a serial killer is, the FBI came up with one in the 1970s (single white male loner under 35) but I reckon criminology has moved on a lot since then.
The Ripper letters are generally considered to be fakes. I can't remember if they found out who wrote them.
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I was brought up in religion, and so have always been pretty spiritual. My superstitious Irish grandmother believe that when you mistreated someone horrifically, they lost a part of their soul, and it left them open to evil or possession.

the spiritual part of me believes in evil in those terms.

the rational, logical part of me sees it as a preventable human condition. That if a child is stripped of their humanity they will develop maladaptive coping mechanisms that will diminish their empathy towards others and make them a risk to society.

I prefer to focus on the latter because… if we dismiss someone as “evil” then we attribute it to an other worldly entity or chance, with the implication that it’s out of our hands. Whereas I strongly believe it is firmly in our hands (collectively) to prevent these types of individuals from being turned into monsters.

I will say that some individuals I’ve met with PDs (some diagnosed, some not) just do give me the creeps and make my skin come out in goosebumps. They aren’t even upleasant or threatening. One guy I came into contact with… wasn’t violent or evil…he was involved in a crime and being charged… but it wasn’t an especially emotive or awful crime. there was something soulless about him that made my inner alarm bells freak out when I was in his presence.

it was like everything around him just… soured. The people he came into contact with, he just destroyed. It was like he was sucking the energy out of them. His wife, his step kids, buisness partners… they all got dragged into his nonsense. Like a black hole, bad things just seemed to happen all around him. (It’s making me shiver just thinking about him). It sounds crazy but it almost felt supernatural at times.

Others I’ve met seemed to do inexplicable well in life… one guy was corrupt and yet had gone through life like teflon. Dirt never seemed to cling to him. He always seemed to escape any sort of negative consequences for his actions (until of course he ended up in the criminal justice system, which is how I came into contact with him). It really felt like he’d made a literal deal with the devil. He’d amassed huge wealth but just seemed dead inside. It was a source of arrogance for him, not a source of happiness.
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it goes against every natural normal instinct which is to care for babies.
Your posts are fascinating and I think your last comment sums it up. Her behaviour is, to misquote Lear, against nature. Particularly from someone trained to be in a caring position.
 
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I couldn't listen to the victim impact statements. My heart is truly broken for those babies and their parents. Letby should have them piped into her cell at least so she can't avoid hearing their words.
I can't for the life of me remember their name, but there was an American murderer who refused to hear their victim's impact statements and it was recorded and played to him during his (2 hour) journey from court to prison.
 
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In an awful situation like this we look for answers in a bid to understand what happened so that we can feel safer. As she is so ‘normal’ and ‘beige’ we can’t get our head around why this happened and want to make sense of it.
Yeah - it's hard to accept the sheer mundanity of it. She doesn't really have a motive, as such, and trying to pin down what she was thinking or whatever isn't going to produce any answers. The banality of evil, and all that.
 
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