Lucy Letby Case #77

[Tofino]

I just got home and can’t find any live reporting. How annoying after having it all week.

Look what headline Crapton went with yesterday.

 

[Miscanthus]

I sincerely hope that one of the recommendations that comes out of this enquiry is that HR procedures and other internal processes shouldn't involve or pander to the parents of the person at the centre of it, when they are a grown adult Yes, people do need independent support and advocates if they are doing through these things, but bringing your dad in to shout at people in person and on the phone and your mum to cry and read out whiny statement should have been seen as unacceptable.

Last night a friend (who was in a senior role) emailed me to express their horror that the parents were allowed into meetings. They are not following the case but know I am so all they see is what is in MSM. Of course I filled them in on all the details!

 

[sebanna]

Apparently TC was discussing the issues with the consultants on a train before telling the families.

 

[IGiveUp22]

I haven’t been able to read any of the transcripts so really appreciate people posting bits and bobs.

I’m at a loss that this management was basically able to do every single “don’t” when following procedures/hr guidance etc how have they genuinely got it so wrong?! It’s baffling!

 

[starpaws]

AK, TC, IH cannot recall so many of their own actions, even when there are meeting notes to jog their memories.

But the CAN remember with absolute certainty that the Consultants didn’t express their concerns clearly and forcefully enough.

 

[Tofino]

Lucy Letby boss admits 'crass' letter to babies' families

Ian Harvey also accepted he failed in a duty of care to medics trying to raise the alarm about the nurse.

www.bbc.co.uk

I’m glad she asked this because I had wondered if hospitals are allowed to just pass patient records around in the manner COCH did.

 

[Tofino]

Just been listening to ‘the managers’ podcast from the mail. They shared the audio to this bit with Sue H. I love how stern the KCs get with them.

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And of course he’s right, utterly reprehensible

 

[MavisBeacon]

Just been listening to ‘the managers’ podcast from the mail. They shared the audio to this bit with Sue H. I love how stern the KCs get with them.

View attachment 3294243
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And of course he’s right, utterly reprehensible

That was the bit that made me nearly hurl my dinner. Their behaviour has been appalling.

 

[Tofino]

That was the bit that made me nearly hurl my dinner. Their behaviour has been appalling.

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for them to accept responsibility.

If they are at any risk of being charged with a crime or be liable in a civil case , Sue using the word ‘disappointing’ rather than agreeing it was ‘reprehensible’ is not going to be the make or break decider.

“Oh Sue said it was disappointing and not reprehensible so sorry, there is no case to answer”

 

[Apostate]

It could be the "make or break decider". They don't want to help a prosecution.

 

[MmmB777]

Just been listening to ‘the managers’ podcast from the mail. They shared the audio to this bit with Sue H. I love how stern the KCs get with them.

View attachment 3294243
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And of course he’s right, utterly reprehensible

Lots of good bits from poor ol Apologies Sue! I’ll have to listen to that and see if he’s as cutting as I was reading it in my head
Struggling to get through Chambers. He is full of hot air the big giant guff.

 

[Tofino]

It could be the "make or break decider". They don't want to help a prosecution.

I think they think that but I don’t think it will actually make a difference if there is enough to prosecute them with anything. The evidence is their emails, meeting notes, actions etc. however I’m not convinced we will see personal prosecutions anyway

I’m just angry that after everything these families have gone through, their priority, with all of them, is to downplay every single point and every single word used because their primary concern is still only for themselves.

 

[followthedolphin]

I know someone who was in an NHS management role ( London area) and blew the whistle on colleagues. The stress he was put under for speaking out landed him a major heart attack. He survived- and left the trust and now runs his own business doing something manual, which he enjoys. It’s hard to imagine the excruciating feeling of being gaslighted at Trust level when you are trying to speak up to protect vulnerable patients. I truly hope that criminal proceedings ensue ( corporate manslaughter or similar) maybe a private prosecution and/ or a civil suit for damages for the parents. I mean FFS, there are barristers willing to take on Letby’s appeal to the CCRC pro bono - I would hope that these narcissistic avoiders are brought to account and there is lots of support for a rigorous legal process. No way should they be walking out of Thirlwall’s inquiry to a peaceful life. They seem so smug ( by “they”, I mean TC, AK, IH in particular)
And as for the Letbys - we really are seeing them now in their true light. There is nowhere to hide. They seem masters of manipulation, blackmail and histrionics - LL learned obviously from her parents . As someone said earlier - why the Fk was it so hard to simply ignore them and banish them from meetings? It’s abhorrent.

 

[Tofino]

One thought that has crossed my mind is that the hospital as an organisation ‘may?’ have a defence against corporate manslaughter because it’s clear the exec individuals didn’t follow hospital policies that were in place (speak out safely policy, ignored advice on disciplinary for Letby, withheld info from CQC, RCPCH etc), and also withheld information from/misled the board. So maybe there could be personal criminal prosecutions instead of a corporate one. But I don’t know enough about the legalities and options for prosecution with something like this.
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Lots of good bits from poor ol Apologies Sue! I’ll have to listen to that and see if he’s as cutting as I was reading it in my head
Struggling to get through Chambers. He is full of hot air the big giant guff.
View attachment 3294458

He was cutting. It is worth a listen.

 

[Apostate]

One thought that has crossed my mind is that the hospital as an organisation ‘may?’ have a defence against corporate manslaughter because it’s clear the exec individuals didn’t follow hospital policies that were in place (speak out safely policy, ignored advice on disciplinary for Letby, withheld info from CQC, RCPCH etc), and also withheld information from/misled the board. So maybe there could be personal criminal prosecutions instead of a corporate one. But I don’t know enough about the legalities and options for prosecution with something like this.

Corporate Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

This would seem to suggest there may be grounds for corporate manslaughter.

1. the defendant is a qualifying organisation;
2. the organisation owed a relevant duty of care to the deceased;
3. there was a gross breach of that duty by the organisation;
4. the way in which its activities were managed or organised by its senior
5. management was a substantial element in the breach; and
6. the gross breach of the organisation’s duty caused or contributed to the death.

 

[Tofino]

I’ve just been looking into corporate manslaughter cases. There is actually a trial ongoing at the moment, although not much being reported, for an NHS trust (corporate manslaughter and also failing to ensure the health and safety of non-employees) and a ward manager is also on trial alongside them for manslaughter by gross negligence (he is accused of failing to take reasonable steps to remove a "means of suicide" or provide an "adequate level of care and supervision").

It’s for the suicide death of a mental health patient in 2015 (Alice Figueiredo). So I guess it is possible to individual employees to receive a criminal charge alongside the trust. We can only hope!

 

[Apostate]

Corporate Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

This would seem to suggest there may be grounds for corporate manslaughter.

i would have thought the failure to act on the May 2016 email puts them on the hook for the triplets.

 

[Dolly Daydreaming]

Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in my dolly debrief Thursday was... well, let’s just say it was a weird one. I spent the whole day feeling completely disjointed thanks to some absolute creep who latched onto me like a bad smell. Turns out he’s a NG, die hard fan To top it off, I had a spat on Wednesday with a NG woman who actually works in the NHS. It wasn’t the older NG lady, Pat (she was there on Thursday too), but honestly, what is it with these people? I’ll get my thoughts written up tomorrow once I’ve recovered from the second-hand cringe. I couldn’t make it today because I was at work, but I know Cack and the new lady (the one who used to work with those scumbag execs) were there. No word from them yet, but I’m sure they’ve got stories ps hope my debrief made some sense after you've all read the transcripts/updates from the other day, it felt like word vomit after I read it bafk 🫣

 

[IGiveUp22]

Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in my dolly debrief Thursday was... well, let’s just say it was a weird one. I spent the whole day feeling completely disjointed thanks to some absolute creep who latched onto me like a bad smell. Turns out he’s a NG, die hard fan To top it off, I had a spat on Wednesday with a NG woman who actually works in the NHS. It wasn’t the older NG lady, Pat (she was there on Thursday too), but honestly, what is it with these people? I’ll get my thoughts written up tomorrow once I’ve recovered from the second-hand cringe. I couldn’t make it today because I was at work, but I know Cack and the new lady (the one who used to work with those scumbag execs) were there. No word from them yet, but I’m sure they’ve got stories ps hope my debrief made some sense after you've all read the transcripts/updates from the other day, it felt like word vomit after I read it bafk 🫣

Thank you for doing the lords work - reporting back AND arguing with NGs

 

[Tofino]

i would have thought the failure to act on the May 2016 email puts them on the hook for the triplets.

There must be a strong case for the triplets. There is also Baby N attempted murder conviction in June 2016 so I don’t know if there is another charge that could be applied. The other babies after May 2016 were no verdicts which is frustrating.
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Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in my dolly debrief Thursday was... well, let’s just say it was a weird one. I spent the whole day feeling completely disjointed thanks to some absolute creep who latched onto me like a bad smell. Turns out he’s a NG, die hard fan To top it off, I had a spat on Wednesday with a NG woman who actually works in the NHS. It wasn’t the older NG lady, Pat (she was there on Thursday too), but honestly, what is it with these people? I’ll get my thoughts written up tomorrow once I’ve recovered from the second-hand cringe. I couldn’t make it today because I was at work, but I know Cack and the new lady (the one who used to work with those scumbag execs) were there. No word from them yet, but I’m sure they’ve got stories ps hope my debrief made some sense after you've all read the transcripts/updates from the other day, it felt like word vomit after I read it bafk 🫣

Poor you having to deal with Letby’s creeps! Do you think he’s one of the Twitter lot? I’ve not been on to see if any of them have said they attended. No doubt they still believe the Hopsital scapegoated Letby despite 3 months of evidence the hospital did everything to protect her instead.