Just looking at the rules it might have been allowed or rejected by the single judge - either way in can end up here.
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Judith was on Loose Women?
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If you watch on the app it starts at 32 mins
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Mariella, whoever she is, seems to have no clue what’s going on.
Saying ‘there’s so many expert witnesses coming forward’.
Huh? They are not witnesses. They are supposedly experts in their field but they are not witnesses unless she is granted a retrial and they are used!
Then regarding the families. ‘They think it’s all set in stone then then there’s a retrial then talk of another retrial. Oh no, David Davis MP is calling for a full on start from scratch again. That must be torturous for them. But it feels this is one of those cases that revolved on the personality of the person accused”
wtf is all that nonsense
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If you watch on the app it starts at 32 mins
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Mariella, whoever she is, seems to have no clue what’s going on.
Saying ‘there’s so many expert witnesses coming forward’.
Huh? They are not witnesses. They are supposedly experts in their field but they are not witnesses unless she is granted a retrial and they are used!
Then regarding the families. ‘They think it’s all set in stone then then there’s a retrial then talk of another retrial. Oh no, David Davis MP is calling for a full on start from scratch again. That must be torturous for them. But it feels this is one of those cases that revolved on the personality of the person accused”
wtf is all that nonsense
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Did Judith set them straight?? I must say I thought the panorama was rit and she’s really gone down in my estimations. If she told them all to shut up I’ll put her back in my good books.
I found the panorama a bit disappointing too, I felt like it was pandering too much to the NGs and it I found it irritating when the producer was contemplating whether she was really guilty, it seemed really fake.
She made some good points, I liked the way she challenged Mike Hall about his "didnt have a fair trial" by pointing out that it was ultimately her decision not to call him. I just wished it had done more to challenged the misconceptions about the case. Also whst was the point in Dr Tariq Ali clearly didnt know anything about the case.
I’ve not watched the panorama yet!
When she spoke she was clear and emphasised the importance of being in the main court room and seeing Lucy tie herself in knots on the stand and what the jury would have experienced.
That Jonathan guy was saying how they didn’t find anything in her home apart from the notes and Judith chipped in and reminded him of the paperwork. The mariella woman was talking to Jonathan and I can’t remember how he responded now.
I didn’t really get any idea what the book is about. Well, I obvs know it’s about Letby but in what context? Are they covering the trial? Given it’s meant to be promo for the book I feel like the Loose Women segment was mostly just talking about the sceptics.
I've just watching the it on catch up. It was very annoying. There was a statement by the clown Mark Macdonald saying there was no forensic evidence and no one saw her do it so must be innocent
. They should have read out a statement from the Thirwell inquiry where they asked ghouls and conspiracy theorists to stop questioning the verdict.
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I felt like with Panorama they'd gone to all the effort to get some decent, intelligent guests eg Mike Hall and they barely said anything!! it needed to be way longer than 30 minutes so they could talk about specific babies rather than just in general terms.
If want to hear a better interview with Judith Moritz about the book listen to bbc 4 women's hour from yesterday. She gives a better insight into what was in the book, she mentioned that she interviewed Dawn as research. She also mentioned interviewing Stephen Breary and baby Es mum but wasn't sure if that was for the book or Panorama documentary.
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I agree, it was too vague they could have challenged him more as he said he only disagreed with some elements of the prosecutions case but clearl agreed with other elements. It annoyed me when he said she didn't receive a fair as he is in position to judge that, he is a medical expert not a legal expert.
It's a strange definition of fair. Puzzling why people say that when the defence had Dr Hall, a statistician and other expert witnesses but decided not to call them. I really don't know how it could have been fairer - they even got extra funding for a third barrister.
I think she’s guilty as hell in my opinion! No way is she innocent!
thanks for the reminder, I’ve just listened and it was much better. Helped by the fact she was on her own and only one interviewer rather than 4 loose women!
I want to read the book but will wait for it to come down in price!
I wonder if Judith is already writing book 2 based on the inquiry.
bleeping hell, first chapter and young Lucy was as dull as ditchwater. Constant stories about her being diligent and studious but not naturally clever, ad nauseum. People at school and college state she was boring/vanilla/bland/beige. High school head master didn’t remember her and states she was unmemorable, she didn’t get a first at university, but either a 2:1 or 2:2. She had to try hard at school to get good grades, used to take extensive detailed notes and friends couldn’t believe she would ever make a mistake as she was so diligent in her note taking and studies. States she never really grew up and acted like a child, even at university. She seemed judgemental about her friends who acquired boyfriends but most assumed she went to salsa dance classes to try and get her own boyfriend.
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Only Dawn would go on record about her and was steadfast in thinking she was innocent. She had a job at W H Smith, which was apt as she loved fingering through the bio books in which the main character overcame adversity. She was bad at maths but excelled at English, History and Geography. She adored her geography teacher and referred to her in the infamous post it/letter.
Her friend was a devout Christian and so she went to Church socials to fit in with the gang. Friends suspected that her whole demeanour was built upon becoming a children’s nurse. She seemed fixated upon it from a young age.
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Only Dawn would go on record about her and was steadfast in thinking she was innocent. She had a job at W H Smith, which was apt as she loved fingering through the bio books in which the main character overcame adversity. She was bad at maths but excelled at English, History and Geography. She adored her geography teacher and referred to her in the infamous post it/letter.
Her friend was a devout Christian and so she went to Church socials to fit in with the gang. Friends suspected that her whole demeanour was built upon becoming a children’s nurse. She seemed fixated upon it from a young age.
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Yes - no boyfriends and according to the book that was the reason she did salsa … so she could meet someone but zilch.
As the book was written post trial and retrial it is already factually incorrect as the evidence from the enquiry is now showing.
As the book was written post trial and retrial it is already factually incorrect as the evidence from the enquiry is now showing.
Are there lots of men at salsa classes?! I’d have expected someone her age at that time to be going to Clubbercise and looking for men on dating sites/apps (esp seeing as she liked her phone so much) …
Has anyone else applied to attend the hearing later? I'm hoping it's not too late for me, I only applied yesterday evening, but that worked for me back in May.
Surprised it's 3 judges and public already, they seem to have skipped a step.
In terms of her grounds, I was only at the trial two days, but the thing I remember Ben Myers getting angry about was the prosecution taking the opportunity to question Letby about another mysteriously de-tubed baby not on the indictment. I think the judge did agree to instruct the jury to disregard that though, so don't know what the grounds could be.
I wasn't there but apparently BM also got very angry about Dr Jayaram having contributed to TV shows about Letby, but the judge dismissed it as Dr J is a normal witness, not an official expert, and BM agreed to not bother about it.
The only other things I can guess are disruption incidents from the trial watchers? Or new evidence?
The original incorrect door swipe data was in the defense's favour so don't think it can be that?
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Some thoughts about the last few days:
Any way, that is my latest twopenneth. I'll give an update if I get into the leave to appeal hearing.
Surprised it's 3 judges and public already, they seem to have skipped a step.
In terms of her grounds, I was only at the trial two days, but the thing I remember Ben Myers getting angry about was the prosecution taking the opportunity to question Letby about another mysteriously de-tubed baby not on the indictment. I think the judge did agree to instruct the jury to disregard that though, so don't know what the grounds could be.
I wasn't there but apparently BM also got very angry about Dr Jayaram having contributed to TV shows about Letby, but the judge dismissed it as Dr J is a normal witness, not an official expert, and BM agreed to not bother about it.
The only other things I can guess are disruption incidents from the trial watchers? Or new evidence?
The original incorrect door swipe data was in the defense's favour so don't think it can be that?
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Some thoughts about the last few days:
- I am disgusted by the high-up nurses being so butthurt at not being considered as important as consultants that they immediately dismissed and railed against any suggestion that a fellow nurse might possibly be less than kosher.
- The status of being nurses went to their heads. A little (medical) knowledge is a dangerous thing. They are so bleeping ignorant that they don't even know what they don't know. They were not qualified to evaluate whether evidence exists or not - which is exactly why the doctors couldn't give them definitive reasons: they knew it needed to be investigated because they knew the context they were lacking. The nurses just didn't get it.
- (Anecdotally, I've found there is a problem with some nurses getting ideas above their station just because they have a modest amount of medical knowledge. Every time I've had to see some fancy nurse because the NHS is cheaping out on letting anyone see doctors, it's been a disaster. They're clueless about anything outside of actual nursing, and they don't even realise).
- Repetitively saying "there was no evidence" is bleeping infuriating when they were preventing the one thing that could provide this evidence. Is there ever any solid evidence of wrongdoing when a kid repeatedly turns up to school with black eyes? When money always goes missing when a certain person is around? No. It may or may not be of significance, and that's exactly why you investigate.
- A few weeks ago, Dr Gibbs (IIRC) saying "it wouldn't be appropriate" to bring their concerns up during CQC inspections, comparing it to teachers complaining during Ofsted inspections. Actually, if they thought a teacher was murdering pupils they should be shouting it from the rooftops at every opportunity.
- There was generally so much concern about propriety and internal processes being followed correctly. None of this tit matters: a serial killer was potentially at large, hunting babies. They were so caught up in their workplace culture that they couldn't see how batshit it was for them to be fannying about seeking their managers' and colleagues' approval instead of going to police.
- Karen Rees clearly felt very maternal towards Letby. I think this goes some way to explaining Letby cultivating older friends, and the method by which she sucked up to managers.
- It could also explain why she was bringing Mummy and Daddy along to work meetings: to present herself as young and vulnerable to all these older chumps who were enthralled by her, and inspire them to feel protective and coddle her.
- Multiple friends in the inquiry have said they were the only, or among the only, friends/support Letby had. I suspect this was deliberate, to make them feel obligated and loyal to her, believing they were important enough to be the only one this secretive, vulnerable person was opening up to.
- In the last day of cross examination, it came out that Letby had plenty of friends and was going out several nights a week. This is at odds with Nurse T thinking that she and one other person were Letby's only friends.
- I'm not impressed with Dr Brearey claiming he doesn't remember the conversation about not having Letby on nights for Baby I (and Yvonne Griffiths subsequently altering her statement last minute). I think he's a covering.
- Susan Letby has obviously taught Letby that to get your own way, you throw histrionic toddler tantrums. Irritatingly, it obviously works. It worked for Janet Cox as well, when she tantrumed to get herself special treatment in court.
- I feel really vindicated at seeing all these descriptions of Letby being not very bright, failing as a nurse, and having to work very hard academically. I knew she was a sandwich short of a lunchbox when I first saw her on the stand and everyone describing her as intelligent was maddening!
- I do feel a bit sorry for child Letby; it must have been very hard growing up as somebody who presents as intelligent, but actually is really not, and never, ever being able to live up to expectations. It's not surprising she has a complex about it all.
- Not only that but she has terrible parents who did not instill self-esteem, or learn how to cope with her weaknesses in a healthy way. Instead she denies her weaknesses exist, and lashes out at the world for making her feel inadequate. This is due to her parents never allowing her to feel like she's done anything wrong or insufficient, no matter the reality.
Any way, that is my latest twopenneth. I'll give an update if I get into the leave to appeal hearing.
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Finished Tuesday’s transcript.
So Annemarie and some others in the risk team began to search all datix and incident reports that involved Letby and created a folder of them.. then mysteriously that folder disappeared. When she asked Ruth where it had gone, Ruth basically said don’t get involved
So is this why we don’t have the datix about her leaving her designated babies and apart from Letby’s reflections there’s no data in evidence about the morphine and non prescribed antibiotics? So did they actually wipe all her incidents? There definitely need to be criminal charges for that!
I like the vibe of Annemarie but she puzzles me a bit to be honest. She’s got a brain and nice to have someone that can actually answer and be coherent. She seems very headstrong, good at what she does, very analytical of relationships between staff, very concerned with risk and it being looked at meticulously.
Clearly saw the chart and could see Letby had to have been involved and then all it took was being shut down once by Ruth and that was it. Sat in an office next to Letby for almost a year?! Aware the folder of incidents got deleted. Put on a report for O&P that it was terrible care that was a factor in their deaths with no evidence for it in Hawden’s report that she’d used, just did it at Alison K’s request. I dunno just feel like the maths ain’t mathing a bit. Guess that happens all the way through this case though!
Seems to me it’s a real shame that her and Breary had such a frosty relationship from the start because actually if he had treated her as his contact regarding risk they probably would have got somewhere!! I think she harbours a bit of that ‘consultants are so superior
’ thing all the higher up nurses have and he was clearly stressed out of his head and had been unsupported by her predecessor the useless Debbie Peacock. If they’d have given each other a chance they could have cracked it in May 16 
Also, another incident of perfect nurse Letby, being reported for far less than perfect behaviour and those same people are the ones saying in evidence what an incredible professional she was
I wish they’d asked Annemarie what Letby did in her office all day cos wasn’t a load of the batshit notes actually found there in a drawer? Surely you’d be thinking “oh look, Chinderella’s doing her mental scribbling again”.
So Annemarie and some others in the risk team began to search all datix and incident reports that involved Letby and created a folder of them.. then mysteriously that folder disappeared. When she asked Ruth where it had gone, Ruth basically said don’t get involved
So is this why we don’t have the datix about her leaving her designated babies and apart from Letby’s reflections there’s no data in evidence about the morphine and non prescribed antibiotics? So did they actually wipe all her incidents? There definitely need to be criminal charges for that!
I like the vibe of Annemarie but she puzzles me a bit to be honest. She’s got a brain and nice to have someone that can actually answer and be coherent. She seems very headstrong, good at what she does, very analytical of relationships between staff, very concerned with risk and it being looked at meticulously.
Clearly saw the chart and could see Letby had to have been involved and then all it took was being shut down once by Ruth and that was it. Sat in an office next to Letby for almost a year?! Aware the folder of incidents got deleted. Put on a report for O&P that it was terrible care that was a factor in their deaths with no evidence for it in Hawden’s report that she’d used, just did it at Alison K’s request. I dunno just feel like the maths ain’t mathing a bit. Guess that happens all the way through this case though!
Seems to me it’s a real shame that her and Breary had such a frosty relationship from the start because actually if he had treated her as his contact regarding risk they probably would have got somewhere!! I think she harbours a bit of that ‘consultants are so superior
’ thing all the higher up nurses have and he was clearly stressed out of his head and had been unsupported by her predecessor the useless Debbie Peacock. If they’d have given each other a chance they could have cracked it in May 16 Also, another incident of perfect nurse Letby, being reported for far less than perfect behaviour and those same people are the ones saying in evidence what an incredible professional she was
I wish they’d asked Annemarie what Letby did in her office all day cos wasn’t a load of the batshit notes actually found there in a drawer? Surely you’d be thinking “oh look, Chinderella’s doing her mental scribbling again”.
Wow so Ruth is going to get a proper grilling then about the datix forms. That’s kind of tampering with evidence isn’t it?Finished Tuesday’s transcript.
So Annemarie and some others in the risk team began to search all datix and incident reports that involved Letby and created a folder of them.. then mysteriously that folder disappeared. When she asked Ruth where it had gone, Ruth basically said don’t get involved
So is this why we don’t have the datix about her leaving her designated babies and apart from Letby’s reflections there’s no data in evidence about the morphine and non prescribed antibiotics? So did they actually wipe all her incidents? There definitely need to be criminal charges for that!
I like the vibe of Annemarie but she puzzles me a bit to be honest. She’s got a brain and nice to have someone that can actually answer and be coherent. She seems very headstrong, good at what she does, very analytical of relationships between staff, very concerned with risk and it being looked at meticulously.
Clearly saw the chart and could see Letby had to have been involved and then all it took was being shut down once by Ruth and that was it. Sat in an office next to Letby for almost a year?! Aware the folder of incidents got deleted. Put on a report for O&P that it was terrible care that was a factor in their deaths with no evidence for it in Hawden’s report that she’d used, just did it at Alison K’s request. I dunno just feel like the maths ain’t mathing a bit. Guess that happens all the way through this case though!
Seems to me it’s a real shame that her and Breary had such a frosty relationship from the start because actually if he had treated her as his contact regarding risk they probably would have got somewhere!! I think she harbours a bit of that ‘consultants are so superior
Also, another incident of perfect nurse Letby, being reported for far less than perfect behaviour and those same people are the ones saying in evidence what an incredible professional she was
I wish they’d asked Annemarie what Letby did in her office all day cos wasn’t a load of the batshit notes actually found there in a drawer? Surely you’d be thinking “oh look, Chinderella’s doing her mental scribbling again”.
Do the authors mention the fact that salsa was her friend's passion? Their facebook is full of salsa and flamenco. It must have been so weird for this friend to see the media acting like salsa was Letby's thing, when really she was just tagging along to their hobby.
It's mostly women who go to these things, and Letby also went to the gym and hula hoop classes so it seems to be the sort of activity she just enjoyed. Anyway, she'd be more likely to find men at the gym.
There was a man who knew Letby aged 10-17, who said she did have boyfriends and was not sure if her parents knew. There's been other bits of gossip as well. I don't really believe the no boyfriends lark.
Fred West and other famous cases I have my doubts about, by David Davis MP
HELLO, Double Dave here. Despite Brexit cementing my reputation for being thick as mince, I’m 90 per cent sure Lucy Letby is innocent. I could also help these obvious miscarriages of justice.
www.thedailymash.co.uk
The daily mash getting in on the act. Nice.
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