Lucy Letby Case #26

[raspberryjuice]

Patiently waiting for this weeks DM podcast to be released…

 

[Upintheair83]

Absolutely. And there are many siblings who have had an identical upbringing, and yet chose completely different paths in life. Whilst I agree that looking at past events can shed light on some of our behaviour in the present, I do not think that they are always a reliable indicator of how we will act in future. As human beings, we are cognitively very complex. Some would even argue that we have "free will" or "agency" -- that we have some control over environmental factors that enable us to make ethical choices. I'm not denying that factors in our past and environment do matter, but I think of them more as "enabling conditions" rather than "causes".

If we look at family relationships are "causes", then we erase "agency", and in doing so, we deny responsibility for our actions. So, to some extent at least, I believe that -- unlike a ball that once kicked (cause), can't change course (effect) -- we as human beings have the ability (cognitively) as rational beings to stop, think of our options, evaluate their consequences, and choose accordingly. I'm not talking about people who are biologically determined (e.g. someone with Tourettes or someone clinically insane). I'm just talking about the rest of us who have some control over our own thoughts and freedom to choose our actions. And your own experience, Tofino, is evidence that people can overcome adversity, rather than be at their mercy without choice.

LL seems to me, no matter her background, not to fit into the category of someone who is incapable of making choices. She's made plenty of them, and the court has decided she's (cognitively and mentally) fit to stand trial. Even her lawyer hasn't argued otherwise. It find it very improbably that she's had some serious mentally incapacitating condition that has gone undetected all this time; if there were, her lawyer would've said she'd not fit to plead. So, whether guilty or innocent (and I'm in camp G), whatever events took place in her past, interesting as they may be, these were not "causes" of what she did; she was not biologically determined to do what she did. She's morally and legally responsible for her actions.
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The trouble with saying "some people are born evil" is that it then makes us unable to hold them legally or morally responsible for what they do (like someone born with a particular hair, skin or eye colour, etc. Or someone who has genetically inherited a disease. It's not their choice; these are things beyond their control).

Some people are indeed born disturbed, but then we can't in those cases call what they do "evil" because it's not their fault how they were born, and what they did as a consequence. On the other hand, some people, though not born evil, "become" evil by doing "evil things". Those are the people who had control over what they did, and as a result, we can hold responsible for it.

I agree. I know before, I have called her evil, in fact iv said she's the literal devil walking around. However, I did say that when I was extremely emotional about the case. Just because I can't even comprehend what she's actually done.
However,
LlL defo made choices, she had plenty of times to choose what she was doing. She chose to text her work mates and get attention, she made the choice to walk in a particular room and kill those babies, she chose to stand there and watch the parents pain, to search for them on Facebook. She chose to lie to the police when being interviewed.
She has committed the most evil acts, i say evil not in a metaphysical way, but in a way that society deems the most abhorrent.
And these acts I feel are evil because,of all crimes I feel its one of those that regardless of the time we are living in, they would always be heinous. Her actions will always have the same reaction time and generations over.
I do think she's a Psychopath with narcissistic tendencies. Some of these traits, if put into the right channels, she could have done something completely different with her life, but she made the choice. Not all psychopaths go out of their way to cause pain, they just don't react to pain....however she did go out of her way to cause pain.
Her acts are the most evil iv ever heard about and she must be held responsible.

 

[SpindleWhorl]

Does this trial end soon? It’s been ongoing since October hasn’t it?

Not even got to the defence yet. There are constant delays, juror sickness. It only sat a day and a half last week and was off for weeks over Easter. It's just shoddy

 

[LittleMy]

Hope you feel better soon @Milktray 🩷

 

[Sandyclaws]

It’s a shame that we can’t all have a Friday night zoom chat about the week with a couple of magnums of Prosecco … leaving sparkles obviously.
Sorry - I really don’t mean to make light of this thread. It’s an abhorrent case.

If we didn't laugh we'd cry over it all.
Just senseless. And so unnecessary.
At the start I'd nearly have pitied her, she comes across as an absolute lemon.
But these are real babies, real families she has affected, and that is beyond the realms of abhorrent.

 

[Aberscot]

Not been on for a couple of weeks. I've not been too well mentally, so had to come away.

What days did they say court was on this week? Does anyone remember?

I think it’s just today and Wednesday no court

 

[Appletiser]

I saw someone mentioned capital punishment, defo don’t agree personally, even for LL (if indeed guilty)
Although I’m sure if it was my baby I may feel different and I’m sure the parents would too. No amount of punishment will bring their little ones back.
I just personally don’t believe you can punish murder with murder as where does it end.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I saw someone mentioned capital punishment, defo don’t agree personally, even for LL (if indeed guilty)
Although I’m sure if it was my baby I may feel different and I’m sure the parents would too. No amount of punishment will bring their little ones back.
I just personally don’t believe you can punish murder with murder as where does it end.

I say this. How you gonna say murder is so bad so we're gonna murder you too? As a Christian I also don't believe in it but then there are some people I think the world would be a better place if they were wiped out of it.

 

[LittleMy]

I don’t know where I stand on the capital punishment debate tbh. I definitely agree that the world would be better off without certain people in it and that they shouldn’t be a drain on society, but there’s always that chance that you’re condemning an innocent person (wrongly accused) to death. The justice system needs to be stricter though, it’s far too lenient when it comes to sex offenders and child murderers/abusers imo. Prison should feel like prison, they should have absolutely no luxuries.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I don’t know where I stand on the capital punishment debate tbh. I definitely agree that the world would be better off without certain people in it and that they shouldn’t be a drain on society, but there’s always that chance that you’re condemning an innocent person (wrongly accused) to death. The justice system needs to be stricter though, it’s far too lenient when it comes to sex offenders and child murderers/abusers imo.

Defo. My partner got jailed once for beating up someone he caught about to grape someone. Meanwhile the paedos get a community service order.

 

[stardust1]

Defo. My partner got jailed once for beating up someone he caught about to grape someone. Meanwhile the paedos get a community service order.

i say this all the time, one of my husbands mates got 11 years for supplying class A’s but one of my friends her boyfriend absolutely tortured her, he got suspended sentence.

 

[LittleMy]

It’s backwards. Some prisoners get better treatment than residents in care homes.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

It’s backwards. Some prisoners get better treatment than residents in care homes.

My fella said that the VP wings get curtains and that for 'privacy and human rights'. The rest don't. In Hull HMP you can only work in the kitchens if your a VP. Discourages attacks on them as they are handling everyone's food.

 

[Pulltheotherone]

Sitting tomorrow, Thursday and Friday this week.

 

[docmum]

Absolutely. And there are many siblings who have had an identical upbringing, and yet chose completely different paths in life. Whilst I agree that looking at past events can shed light on some of our behaviour in the present, I do not think that they are always a reliable indicator of how we will act in future. As human beings, we are cognitively very complex. Some would even argue that we have "free will" or "agency" -- that we have some control over environmental factors that enable us to make ethical choices. I'm not denying that factors in our past and environment do matter, but I think of them more as "enabling conditions" rather than "causes".

If we look at family relationships are "causes", then we erase "agency", and in doing so, we deny responsibility for our actions. So, to some extent at least, I believe that -- unlike a ball that once kicked (cause), can't change course (effect) -- we as human beings have the ability (cognitively) as rational beings to stop, think of our options, evaluate their consequences, and choose accordingly. I'm not talking about people who are biologically determined (e.g. someone with Tourettes or someone clinically insane). I'm just talking about the rest of us who have some control over our own thoughts and freedom to choose our actions. And your own experience, Tofino, is evidence that people can overcome adversity, rather than be at their mercy without choice.

LL seems to me, no matter her background, not to fit into the category of someone who is incapable of making choices. She's made plenty of them, and the court has decided she's (cognitively and mentally) fit to stand trial. Even her lawyer hasn't argued otherwise. It find it very improbably that she's had some serious mentally incapacitating condition that has gone undetected all this time; if there were, her lawyer would've said she'd not fit to plead. So, whether guilty or innocent (and I'm in camp G), whatever events took place in her past, interesting as they may be, these were not "causes" of what she did; she was not biologically determined to do what she did. She's morally and legally responsible for her actions.
---


The trouble with saying "some people are born evil" is that it then makes us unable to hold them legally or morally responsible for what they do (like someone born with a particular hair, skin or eye colour, etc. Or someone who has genetically inherited a disease. It's not their choice; these are things beyond their control).

Some people are indeed born disturbed, but then we can't in those cases call what they do "evil" because it's not their fault how they were born, and what they did as a consequence. On the other hand, some people, though not born evil, "become" evil by doing "evil things". Those are the people who had control over what they did, and as a result, we can hold responsible for it.

this is fantastic - I did a Masters in Medical Ethics and Law and you are taking me right back to my essay-writing/reasoning. Answered a few questions along the way for me re her mental health too, thank you.

@Milktray hope you’re doing ok, if you need any support however we can you know we’re here

 

[DellaC]

My fella said that the VP wings get curtains and that for 'privacy and human rights'. The rest don't. In Hull HMP you can only work in the kitchens if your a VP. Discourages attacks on them as they are handling everyone's food.

Sorry to be a bit harmless....what's a VP?

My thoughts so far don't really seem right...

Viagra Pusher
Virgin Pig
Vile 'Pedalo'
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It’s backwards. Some prisoners get better treatment than residents in care homes.

It's this that boils my piss
---

Sitting tomorrow, Thursday and Friday this week.

And what the bleeding fuckery is occurring on Wednesday?


The lazzzzzy gets!
---
Vulnerable person...got it!

Sorry....had 7 minutes sleep so I'm a bit more cuckoo than usual

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I actually think some people are born evil, or at least bad. Something to do with human evolution as the bad often rise to the top, thinking of a few despots. Well many.
Violence and ruthlessness can get you there. We’d like to think it always leads to negative outcomes, but does it?
That’s not to say they shouldn’t be put in a position where they crack open a cyanide pill before they’re dragged out and publicly hung.
Not that I support capital punishment, but you know

 

[Milktray]

@Milktray hope you’re doing ok, if you need any support however we can you know we’re here

Thank you all for the kind messages. My health anxiety got the better of me, but managed to get on the wait list for some high-intensity CBT and I'm on sertraline.

Sitting tomorrow, Thursday and Friday this week.

Better crack on with the housework then...hope Dan has his Weetabix in the morning.

 

[thaliamay]

Latecomer to this thread but no way my brain can stretch to accommodate trawling back through 26 threads
What I am interested in, has there been a thread where we speak about thoughts on Letby taking the stand and it's likelihood etc. This is what's keeping me curious. I kinda don't think she will but wish she would.

 

[LittleMy]

Latecomer to this thread but no way my brain can stretch to accommodate trawling back through 26 threads
What I am interested in, has there been a thread where we speak about thoughts on Letby taking the stand and it's likelihood etc. This is what's keeping me curious. I kinda don't think she will but wish she would.

We’ve discussed it here a few times i’m sure, I think thread #23 had some discussion on whether or not she would.

I don’t think she will personally, but I do hope she will because I’d want to hear what she has to say.