How long is the trial expected to last? Already been going 5 months and the prosecutions not finished yet?
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I've just listened and honestly I think the first day after ibiza she done it to draw Dr noname onto the ward...how sick. The colleuage she was texting sounds utterly sick of her cos of the blunt "ok" replies when she's denying fancying the Dr...I mean come on, the guy was offering her his car to use, that's why I don't think he's anon cos he's married or something, cos I think there's no way you'd be so open in that way if u had a wife at home.
Wow. This is absolutely horrendous. There is literally no doubt in mind at this point, I’m sorry I know a lot of people want to wait for the defence but what defence is there for this, as well as everything else
He's playing the 'you're exaggerating because you didn't call the police' card again.
I think one of the long term consequences of this case is going to be that they'll put in place a specific process to follow if you believe that a healthcare worker is causing harm. Phoning the police and having them show up at the unit when your managers have said to STFU is how you end up targeted by bosses. FTSU won't cover something like this. You can report to the NMC/GMC for some professions, but a lot aren't regulated. I can't think what I'd actually do in the position of those consultants.
I agree, surely you can't just phone the police because you would need evidence and I doubt the hospital would appreciate it either.
I think in this context, you can't just phone the police, as much as you'd perhaps want to.
If there's no reporting today you'll hear loud bang and the reporting of a woman's head exploding and pieces being found all over Greater Manchester 
I think because of delays and holidays like Christmas, it was extended. The judge advised the jury it would likely be at least May and not to book holidays if I remember right.
There’s also the context of they were concerned but weren’t fully sure of what was happening in terms of LL doing deliberate acts of harm - your natural reaction to this would be concern but not wanting to believe that your colleague was capable of acts of violence, especially against babies. This doctor also admits she’s heard rumours but wasn’t aware of the full concerns of her colleagues so she’s relating her concerns to two babies in two days but without the bigger picture of all the concerns and events. I think that’s why she’s been taking off clinical duties shortly after that meeting the following Monday because at that point multiple doctors have become involved regarding multiple events. Broken down to individual or a couple of events per doctor it’s difficult to see the pattern but actually in the wider context it becomes so much more apparent. I think that’s reflected in how even people on here are viewing the case as at the beginning many were in the unsure camp however as the case has progressed and the evidence has continued to be presented it’s becoming more obvious that she’s guilty (IMO) so take into consideration this happening on a busy ward, with different shift patterns, interchangeable colleagues in each event, the connotations of premature babies being more likely to collapse etc it’s obvious to see why it’s taken so long for intervention as fundamentally nobody wants to believe their colleague is a serial killer and nobody else was really present for each event so it becomes very bitty and you’re then reliant on colleagues discussing events to piece together the parts.
In terms of calling the police I’m not even sure what the policy/process for this would be - wouldn’t they have to disclose the names/details of the victims and their parents to flag a suspected crime and thus breaking some sort of data protection/medical records barrier that I’d imagine any sort of medical staff would be terrified to cross or would want authorisation from the relevant information governance team to cross?
Honestly, I really feel for staff. They’ve been against a lot of barriers in the face of an unprecedented situation that no amount of training could have prepared them for with incompetent and disbelieving management. I genuinely believe they’ve done the best they could in light of the horrific situation they’ve found themselves embroiled in - the whole “why didn’t you phone the police” argument doesn’t wash - these staff would have been so conflicted and terrified to make such a serious allegation against a colleague without the proper support and guidance from the relevant management teams in the hospital.
Right?! Don't they know I've got work to avoid??If there's no reporting today you'll hear loud bang and the reporting of a woman's head exploding and pieces being found all over Greater Manchester
Can't help but feel things are stacking up now. The prosecution are finishing strongly. Wonder how many more 'Jesus bleeping Christ' moments we're going to see before they rest their case?
Also not really relevant but I've found it interesting that BM and NJ both have 2 'juniors' (not sure if that's the right term) working with them and we sometimes hear from Simon Driver and Philip Astbury for the prosecution but we never hear from the 2 from defence (Michael Maher and Fiona Clancy). I wonder if that's just the done thing for the defence? Or is BM a bit of a control freak? Or does he think that there's no room for error in terms of the defence so wants to take it all on himself? Doesn't really mean much but just something I'd picked up on.
Really good point about not all being there for different things. We’re looking at this with so much context and hindsight. For example, there were no docs there for more than one of the babies in the case during ABCD. Only one or two other nurses was there for 2 babies out of those I believe. They are also thinking all this without being aware there was a poisoner on the ward (yes they should have but they didn’t).
Breaking confidentiality in this kind of circumstance is fine as it's in the public interest to do so, the same as you'd do if someone had been shot or someone had confessed to sustaining their injuries while murdering someone. Unfortunately I've had to do it before due to a family member causing deliberate harm to a patient - there's no issue in disclosing patient info in this kind of situation.
However, in my situation there was no issue for the hospital in me calling the police about my concerns, if I'd been wrong then realistically there's no fallout for them to deal with. There is an issue for the hospital if you do it against another member of staff - what if you're wrong? Grievances and HR all around.
Yeah this and also safeguarding children trumps all other rules/procedures. I'd be contacting the LADO straight away and anyone who works with children should be adequately trained in safeguarding to know what steps to take.
That’s helpful to know, I wasn’t sure of how it worked. The context of it being a colleague and against management wishes makes it so complicated.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure when the LADO came about, possibly not as early as 2015?
What is the LADO?
It's a safeguarding officer who focuses specifically on adults who work with children if there are concerns. Don't need proof, just a concern and they can investigate, work with senior management and police if needed. Senior management tend to take things seriously if local authority safeguarding get involved.
I've referred to the LADO for concerns around a nurse working with children and someone who volunteered at a women's refuge so they cover all areas.
I just googled and apparently LADOs have been a thing since 2013. Shocking that nobody raised concerns with safeguarding really.Brill, thank you. I could've googled but knew you'd give it more context
You've hit the nail on the head there.
Let's hope after this case there is proper guidelines and procedures created incase if anything like this happening again. It's probably rare, but there needs to be something to ensure people can act quicker and prevent harm.
I have changed my opinion from 'unsure' to 'guilty'. There is no way those deaths and near deaths were all coincidences.
However it just beggars belief that all those Dr.'s and staff who were on the ground and working alongside her and who were suspicious of what was happening, did absolutely nothing to put an end to it, especially when they raised their concerns with management and were dismissed, leaving to further innocent babies dying and lifelong heartache for the families. It really is a cover up, management failed those babies and are guilty, but each and every one of those staff who had their suspicions should be held accountable for looking the other way.
However it just beggars belief that all those Dr.'s and staff who were on the ground and working alongside her and who were suspicious of what was happening, did absolutely nothing to put an end to it, especially when they raised their concerns with management and were dismissed, leaving to further innocent babies dying and lifelong heartache for the families. It really is a cover up, management failed those babies and are guilty, but each and every one of those staff who had their suspicions should be held accountable for looking the other way.
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