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Haveyouanywool

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Bsbsnsnsnsnns

As always I don’t claim to know it all so correct anything I’m saying here that’s wrong

firstly, if the defence don’t have an expert that’s willing to atleast disagree with some of what the prosecutions experts are saying then they’re not going to get very far, my opinion is firmly based on the fact you can’t necessarily take anything as gospel until we’ve heard both sides

But anyway 100ml aspirate so that’s more than double what the child should have had in her stomach? and previous to that we’ve got the old “never before seen” projectile vomit (“large amount” whatever that means) and we’ve got no action being taken yet again. Would it not seem obvious that this child was over fed given she had double the amount of milk in her stomach? It seems very coincidental that in so many of these cases we hear “I’ve never seen a baby have this and that, before or after these events” in so many of the cases and yet trained professionals at the time don’t seem particularly shocked by what’s happening, which is proven to me by their lack of action/documentation when these odd things happen.

There’s definitely a pattern emerging just like the prosecution promised although maybe not the one they were trying to highlight
I don’t know what you mean, no action being taken. Baby G was intubated, x-rayed, commenced on antibiotics and other drugs. Medical action was taken, which, funnily enough, would be appropriate as they are medics. Not policemen.
With the power of hindsight, police investigations, expert testimony, yes, now it all becomes clear.
I’m sure most of us, at some point, will have vomited rings round ourselves so know what a large forceful vomit looks like. Imagine you’re lying in bed and vomit so forcefully that it splatters off the wall which is 3 feet away. That would be from an adult, but a 4lb baby?
Large, forceful. Not exclusively medical terms.
 
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Parsnipface

Active member
We've had so many possible reasons, we've delved into the note, her personality etc and we've tried mostly respectfully and with kindness to really consider the idea she didn't do this or if she did why.

The reality is I don't give a fuck if she was abandoned in the wilderness to be raised by wolves and a life of deep chaos then made her who she is.

I have zero doubt, I'm not one of coincidences and the cover up theory is too large, people only keep secrets if they're too involved in the lie, it's too much.

Shes killed the most vulnerable humans in the world and caused pain, grief and trauma to not just the families, her colleagues, her family etc and anyone normal who hears about this.
She'll no doubt have created some other psycho cunt to try and out do her like she has BA and unless there is a thread on how you feel she should be treated in the depths of hell, I'm not sure I'm able to contribute much x
 
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DianaBanana

Chatty Member
Both medical experts have now confirmed it’s not possible for the baby to take in ‘a lot of air whilst vomiting’, contradicting what Letby told police in her interview.
 
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I’mThankyou_

VIP Member

Reading the write up of messages between LL and her colleague - it looks like the colleague is just basing her opinions on what LL is telling her as she hadn't actually seen the baby or the medical notes herself. So I would take her opinion of whether the baby was well enough to be downgraded or not with a pinch of salt - as she (the colleague) wasn't the designated nurse during the shift. Also given that LL has gotten the diagnosis of every single victim wrong in her messages to colleagues so far, including what she told the police about G - her opinion on baby's stability is pointless to me. She messages colleagues every single time to discuss her opinion on the babies with them in great detail, and they all agree with her thinking she's very knowledgeable and experienced - but as we've seen she really knows nothing.

This entire message exchange below feels very weird for some reason. Almost like LL just wants an adoring audience with a front row seat to how much more skilled she is than other nurses and doctors(!). Every message exchange just seems to be her talking about how difficult things are, how much parents love her and what a big part of their journey she is, how she confidently diagnoses every death and almost death, how other doctors and nurses get things wrong and she needs to swoop in to help. Even without any charges of wrongdoing, people with this kind of attention seeking make me feel uncomfortable.

Following completion of her shift Letby messaged a colleague in the evening to say: “(Child G) poorly again.

“Due date today!”

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, responded: “Oh she likes to ‘celebrate’ the big ones in style (sadface).”

Letby replied: Due imms (immunisations) today too. I got her screened this morning after she vomited.”

Her colleague said: “Was she still in (nursery) 4 then?”

Letby said: “Yup and had NN (nursery nurse) all weekend … looked rubbish when I took over this morning, then she vomited at 9 and I got her screened.”

The colleague said “See. It really worries me. I wasn’t on when she was moved but wouldn’t have done it myself.”

Letby replied: “I personally felt it was a big jump considering how sick she was just a week ago. Being in 4 is bad enough and then having NN that just doesn’t always know what to look for/act on. Mum said she hasn’t been herself for a couple of days.”

The colleague said: “F***. I wish she’d told a registered nurse.”

Letby said: “It’s hard isn’t it. When mum came in today she was like oh I’m so pleased you’ve got her which I thought was a little strange as I don’t know her that well but wonder if she just felt reassured to have a nurse.”


The last bit feels like the colleague and LL casting shade on the doctors?
Sounds to me like they're trying to cast shade on the Nursery Nurse rather than the Drs
 
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Treesy19

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I’ve just listened to the latest Mail podcast episode as I get ready for work, they do seem to do a good job of stating what was said in court. And I never thought I’d say that with anything affiliated with the Mail lol.
Baby Gs parents have been through so much from the get go, IVF, v premature birth in a toilet, lengthy hospital stay for G, a serial killer going after her and now a lifetime of 24hr care for G. That little girl is one marvel.
 
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Daisydunn15

VIP Member
Only just managed to catch up with the latest on this case. I've been called for jury service, but asked for it to be delayed due to my job, very bespoke role, not easy for work to get cover. I was then called again, same thing. They accepted that I couldn't easily get the the time off & it would cause my employers a right headache if I was missing from work, so I was discharged & they logged it as service done.

There are enough retired people & those on Jobseekers allowances who could quite easily do jury service I feel. Get the unemployed or retired doing it, they should get their benefits/pensions & the unemployed can get their dole without having to sign on if they are gainfully employed doing jury duty I think. Why drag us hard working folks away from our jobs for it? That's my opinion anyhow.
You're not getting a decent representation across all areas of society if you exclude employed people.

I hope the jury in this case get Christmas off and don't have to go straight back to their normal job during the break, they deserve the break.
 
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OldBlondie

VIP Member
Main takeaways for me today:

*the amount and distance of vomit 😮
*baby G was confirmed as being ivf baby (podcast), that’s 2 so far that we know for sure. What kind of monster knows the pain and effort involved for parents going through ivf, to then go after their baby (repeatedly) 😞
*the skill of the medical staff (minus LL) saved baby G
*the medical staff (minus LL) were a caring bunch that cared deeply about babies (from not sleeping/worrying/to making banners and one member of staff providing a cake for milestones)
*the medical staff had never seen these things before or since
*another baby who’s sudden deterioration couldn’t have been explained by accident or innocently
*LL having interaction with yet another baby just before a very sudden and unexpected collapse
*baby G was attacked on the last of LL’s 4 nightshifts which were her first since F (podcast) what a coincidence that is 🤔
*LL coming into the unit on night off, visited G and then txt colleague with some of babies obs from chart (why)
*more extremely unusual bleeding behind vocal cords (this has already been seen in 3 babies and is going to be seen repeatedly)
*medical experts showing LL to be a liar
*another baby BM has tried to write off just for being premature
*baby G despite being premature (was actually born even before baby A (podcast) which is mind blowing to me) was certainly a little fighter, when hearing about how her birth happened and all that followed. The fact she survived not only milk but likely air too (and why she was prob so unstable afterwards) shows what a little fighter she was
*her birth story in another hospital shows that there are problems/lack of care in other hospitals at certain times
*the staff had no idea what they were up against and that it was actually one of their own that they were working against, an unknown evil force, so therefore would not understand why these “odd” things kept happening or how to stop
*two internal investigations could not show what was responsible for these collapses, that nothing natural should be causing the deaths/collapses. And again multiple medics at the hospital and the experts in court have repeatedly said natural explanations would not make sense, these are sudden and unexpected, regardless of the fact these were tiny babies.

**Please feel free to add any other major points from today cos I’ve probably missed a Few

I’m lucky that both my babies were term, so I haven’t ever had a wee preemie and been through all that comes with it, but my friend has, and some on here have. And for me it’s getting so frustrating when these babies are being written off when they were doing so well and getting so much stronger despite the odds. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for parents of wee preemies having to listen to that suggestion. After reading today, and last Monday and listening to podcast it’s so clear that G was such a wee fighter and had been doing so well. The fact her parents thought once she got to 100 days they could finally relax😞 until the evil LL got her hands on her. It’s so so sad that all these babies were doing so well, and would have been going home with their families until they had the unfortunate fate (prosecution’ words) of coming into contact with LL 😩


I also thought these were a great few lines from BM today:

Mr Myers: "We don't know [the quantity of vomit as it was not measured]."

Dr E: "No, but it's a lot of vomit."

BM: "We don't know how much, do we?"

Dr E: "It was...an awful lot of vomit."

To me they are typical BM pantomime badie with his actual nonsense wording 🤣

I think the hospital obviously had many failings, nobody is denying that. But not one nurse, doctor, consultant etc would have suspected one of their own was causing harm to all these babies. For a lot of them they’re seeing these events as a one off unexplained event. They’re not present for all of the collapses, they’re not seeing the similarities because they can’t and they’re not all seeing LL’s constant presence at all of these events. A look through the notes for each collapse doesn’t even make it clear that she was the connection because she was often not the designated nurse for these babies. It’s only when you can step back and look at it all laid out that the dots start joining up. That’s why the police investigation lead to LL.
None of her colleagues would have even considered she was to blame at the stage we’re currently at (Baby G) because it’s unthinkable somebody would be doing all of this intentionally.
Could not have worded it better myself. Excellent post 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

In all these types of crimes, medics dealing with these victims, try to make things a best fit medically at the time, because that is literally their job. They don’t expect a hospital to be a crime scene. However insane these crimes feel or how people aren’t stopped (Shipman doc is incredible to get a sense of this) has absolutely no relation at all to whether a crime took place. They are questions for after the trial and will certainly be asked I’m sure.
Fantastic point, there’s zero correlation between them not knowing it was LL at the time, and her murdering/harming all these babies. They would never have realised she was the common denominator at that time. They are always going to look for medical explanations rather than a murderer on the ward hiding in plain sight
 
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musiclover90

Active member
I'm leaning towards G as much as you can be without actually coming out and saying it-just feels weird before trial is over or we've even heard the defence to say G (for me that is, I don't mind what others say) and I haven't followed all of it so the charges are a bit muddled for me (need to go study the wiki!) but yeh leaning towards G but leaving that teeny tiny bit of doubt in case the defence has something incredible, seems extremely doubtful but who knows.

I don't think she's a psychopath though based on the note, I'm not an expert but seems like she had a lot of fear and shame and I'm not sure a psychopath would-I'm sure they fear jail but doubt they feel shame or say "I don't deserve mum and dad" etc. I could be wrong though. I defo think she could be a narcissist, especially reading that they like to ruin special occasions for others (e.g babies' 100 days celebration)-I didn't get why she would be jealous of parents before the trial started but now I think she could be if she's a narcissist.

There is also something called narcissistic collapse where they don't get something they want (or don't receive the external validation they believe they deserve) and they lash out and then they can hurt others. My feeling is growing up she got spoilt and put on a pedestal and never told no (not that I'm blaming her parents), because I can't see what else could've led to her doing this bar massive trauma we don't know about (she gets on well with her parents so unlikely she was abused or neglected) I have no qualifications so it's just my crazy theories, and obviously most spoilt kids don't act like this! But if anyone has any insight or arguments that'd be interesting.
 
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DianaBanana

Chatty Member

This write up has the picture shown in court today. It shows the cot the baby was in, and the black circles are where the vomit landed.
 

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Rippedjeanmaybe

VIP Member
The way they are describing that vomit is awful. I can’t even imagine such a forceful vomit flying out of a baby that is lying down, poor child.
 
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Blockedbyadmin

VIP Member
Oh if anyone is on the fence after today then I can’t see how they aren’t swaying one way. The doctors are all saying the same thing. And they’ve all said what Lucifer has said about taking in air is false so she’s fucked.

Oh dear Lucifer. Ben tried today to rattle the docs but it’s not happened because they’re the ones with the correct evidence
 
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Haveyouanywool

VIP Member
Im sure this will come as a surprise to everyone but I disagree that the prosecution had a good day ersonally don’t think dr evans did himself any favours today, I’m obviously not in court and it’s all paraphrased but he seemed to be moody af and pretty snappy he was also dismissive of any questions. He didn’t really explain anything just seemed to be offended that his mighty opinion was being challenged. “I don’t deal in ifs and buts I use evidence” yet his main point, about the amount of vomit was never actually recorded. So it would seem he deals in what ever suits his opinion and ifs and buts can be used when it points to LL being guilty. This isn’t the first time either where he’s added things to his opinion that weren’t in his reports (the plunger), which is odd to me anyway, he seems to like giving extra speculative details which he’s not written down anywhere and aren’t based off evidence they want me to believe he’s done multiple reports and is only realising important details now? Also the whole “I’ve not seen unexpected collapses happening regularly since so I’ve changed my opinion” seems reasonable until you realise the hospital was downgraded following these incidents, he’s contradicting what he’s said in to police with everything more fresh in his mind, If LL was out here changing her opinions on things it would be fishy behaviour, but the expert does it and no one bats an eye lid

From the questions BM asked today, there seems to be plenty of room for other causes, I’m speculating but given these questions I’d say it’s likely there’s a defence expert willing to disagree with mr evans conclusion here.

and just to add my NICU son had a milk protein intolerance ( something like that anyway I can’t remember exactly ) he would regularly projectile vomit right from birth. We were told it wasn’t unusual and his “allergy” wasn’t even noticed until he was maybe 6 months. Often he’d be given extra feeds to replace the milk that he had lost and it wasn’t documented. I don’t think my son was anywhere near as poorly as the children in these cases though so it may be totally irrelevant.
Dr Evans wasn’t the only Doctor in court today. I think all the Doctors evidence, taken together, would be pretty impressive.
The first vomit/aspirate episode. A large forcefully projectile vomit, right out of the cot, plus 45mls of aspirated milk stomach contents. Obviously more than the 45ml volume Baby G was given.
It’s stated that Dr Evans 2018 report mentioned a ‘forceful’ feed. As he explained forceful would mean the use of a plunger. If a feeding pump is not being used then that leaves a syringe feed using gravity (no force) or a plunger (can be forceful). I don’t think there’s anything contentious there, just a little more explanation.
The further 100ml aspirate. Air or milk. It’s still 100mls out of the baby’s stomach, which was only tolerating 45mls.
 
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Tofino

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Yeah I think we can all agree the hospital missed opportunities to stop her sooner.

Just because the hospital didn’t recognise foul play at the time doesn’t mean foul play didn’t happen.
 
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Well this forum is no different when it comes to impartiality, just on the opposite side of the fence but that appears to be acceptable because on here most people are on the 'right' side (in their eyes)
God forbid we agree with the evidence given in court. The defence are extremely weak and haven't provided any "reasonable" doubt.

If you think she's innocent fair enough but don't pretend your better than people here who believe she's guilty after all we have been presented with.

At least those of us who believe she's guilty aren't peddling conspiracy theories we are just going by the expert witnesses that we have heard from.
 
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I was doing some digging and reading some of the published reports around the time of the deaths and I found some interesting points. (Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m using memory for some of this).

• Around the time LL is accused an initial investigation in the unexpected deaths found that the unit was inadequate due to poor decision making, not enough senior staff and the medical team (drs/consultants) weren’t sufficient enough for the high dependency care (most of the babies were ITU or HDU). Not long after the police investigation started the chief executive resigned.

• The initial investigation was relating to 17 deaths and 16 non fatal collapses. LL is charged with 7 murders and attempt of 10 (correct me if I’m wrong). She was initially charged with 8 murders though.

• There were 8 deaths in 2015, 5 of which she is being charged with, comparatively to only 3 deaths in 2014. That leaves 3 deaths in 2015 which would be a norm for the trend.

• The report done initially after the deaths found a pattern of deaths when there was insufficient medical cover and dr’s reluctance to seek advice. There were historical issues around senior decision making and delayed escalation.

• Staffing was reportedly frequently less than the recommended level however, was at 21% shortfall in 2014-2015.

• The British Association of Perinatal Medicine (BAPM) guidelines state that all infants who die should undergo a postmortem by a specialist and despite this, not all cases of infant death (as we know) were referred for a postmortem despite this being a guideline.

(These are in no relation to any bias of a G or NG viewpoint I have just found some facts to share)
 
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candyland_

VIP Member
It could be that she started harming them in a smaller way much earlier where they didn't die and so suspicion wasn't aroused. It could have been with much less frequency to begin with and then something happened in 2015 and her actions escalated which eventually made people suspect her. It's hard to believe she was a good, kind, dedicated nurse from 2011 and then suddenly turned into a monster.
A nurse gave evidence in court quite early on to say that Letby was stood over a deteriorating baby and wouldn’t raise the alarm but she doesn’t know which baby it was. Letby shouted at her for seeking help.

This had probably been going on for years.
 
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Windowtothewall

Chatty Member
After yesterday's evidence, I can see why the prosecution brought an attempted murder charge for baby G.

If there's no explanation for why there was more vomit/aspirate than she'd been fed, other than deliberate overfeeding, and this is what the experts say caused her long term damage - they have no choice but to consider it attempted murder.

BM's alternate theories (which will be a summary of what his own medical experts have told him) have also been shot down credibly by the medical experts. The defence questioning the amount of vomit is really clutching at straws tbh - it was documented even at the time and the attending doctors too called it 'extraordinary'. The same goes for BM claiming it was a genetic medical condition causing projectile vomits, which has been proven to not be the case. I can't see what else they have, and the time to show their hand would have been when cross examining the medical experts. Any experts they bring in now will just be corroborating what BM is positing as alternate theories in his cross examination.

This is the worst case by far as it shows a really malicious, cruel intent and the parents have to live with seeing how it affected their child every day.
 
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Are people thinking this nurse is intentionally trying to cover up murder or that she doesn't think LL is guilty?

If it's that she believes LL is innocent then I think that could be pretty telling, we've wondered what her colleagues actually thought of her and who knows what the state of the ward was like better than another nurse she was working with? Perhaps it really was that bad.

Personally I believe that her police statement was misconstrued and she wanted to clarify it, doesn't seem fishy or indicative of guilt/innocence to me.
I think she lied, either now or back then when she implicated Letby. I no longer trust anything she says, if she came back tomorrow and said "oh no wait it was actually Letby" I wouldn't believe her then either.

I am happy to totally discount everything she has ever said. I feel like right now it's only proving to be a distraction from what happened to Baby G.

Regardless of who put the screens up and who turned off the monitor, I believe the monitor being off and the screens being in place gave Letby the opportunity to harm this baby.
 
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