Lucy Letby Case #2

[veevee04]

“That case really affected me so I checked up on their parents Facebook on Christmas Day as I expected they would post about baby X’

Looking up patients on facebook is questionable especially when they aren't your own patient's which some of them weren't. That is a breach of confidentiality really and I don't think her professional body the RCN would be too pleased with it even without a murder charge. Also she said in interviews with the police she couldn't explain why so she stuffed that one.

“I regularly take information home, I revise before shift/on public transport so I can familiarise myself with my patients before I get to work’

Patient documentation is NEVER meant to leave the hospital. It's massively against information governance and would be again serious unprofessionalism and grounds for misconduct. That being said it does happen by accident and I used to have a manager who would take home imaging requests to vet which we didn't like her doing because it's massively against protocol

‘ I was in that room with that baby because that staff member was a new agency worker and I wanted to keep an eye on them/support them’

Someone would be assigned to that person if needed, in somewhere like NICU where it's very one to one nursing with the patients she would have been assigned to one baby and thats that really.

The mother who walked in may have seen her injecting something but understandably would have presumed it was a prescribed drug, that being said we don't know the circumstances so far on that and it is the job of the prosecution to dramatise events a bit....

It's the NMC the RCN is the union , there's nothing in the code that says staff can't look up people on social media if it's in the public domain. Adding them and trying to establish contact would be very much a no no and inappropriate. Some people are very nosey it seems to me Lucy didn't have much going on in her life apart from work . Her parents lived in Hereford and there doesn't seem to have been a partner.

Taking handover sheets also happens people have loads of stuff in their pockets and after a 12.5 hour shift you are in a rush to go home. I've always then popped them in the confidential waste bin some might forget . I do 1:1 nursing at times if someone is stable and another junior colleague needs help you go and assist. You help eachother. I'm also a member of groups related to my practice interests on SM. She could be guilty but a lot of this stuff can be answered away as a HCP myself . The opening statement should be really strong but it's not grabbing me as concrete guilt.

I'd be really interested to find out if LL picked up lots of overtime as I suspect , she seemed obsessed with the job and that would throw the statistics off. I wonder if the defence will bring it up.

 

[Medieval Victorian]

I have been wondering if there is any common denominator with any of the victims or if they have been targeted at random? I know twins have been mentioned, but it's not uncommon to see twins or multiples in NICU (in my limited experience as a parent to a child who was in NICU), so perhaps they were chosen just because they were accessible to her and not specifically because they were twins? I'm just speculating I guess, as it's very hard to work out what the motivation would be to do something like this

My other thought was about baby A and baby B. Supposedly baby A was killed on the 8th June, then she attempted to kill baby B between the 8th and the 11th. That's extremely close together. If baby A was the first baby she had killed, you would think that she would leave some time...maybe see how it played out and if she had got away with it before trying again? It makes me wonder if baby A was the first baby murdered or if there could have been babies killed before that one that she has somehow gotten away with

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

“That case really affected me so I checked up on their parents Facebook on Christmas Day as I expected they would post about baby X’

Looking up patients on facebook is questionable especially when they aren't your own patient's which some of them weren't. That is a breach of confidentiality really and I don't think her professional body the RCN would be too pleased with it even without a murder charge. Also she said in interviews with the police she couldn't explain why so she stuffed that one.

“I regularly take information home, I revise before shift/on public transport so I can familiarise myself with my patients before I get to work’

Patient documentation is NEVER meant to leave the hospital. It's massively against information governance and would be again serious unprofessionalism and grounds for misconduct. That being said it does happen by accident and I used to have a manager who would take home imaging requests to vet which we didn't like her doing because it's massively against protocol

‘ I was in that room with that baby because that staff member was a new agency worker and I wanted to keep an eye on them/support them’

Someone would be assigned to that person if needed, in somewhere like NICU where it's very one to one nursing with the patients she would have been assigned to one baby and thats that really.

The mother who walked in may have seen her injecting something but understandably would have presumed it was a prescribed drug, that being said we don't know the circumstances so far on that and it is the job of the prosecution to dramatise events a bit....

I realise that that’s all proper protocol, but there have been many nurses/public sector/bank workers even on this thread who have admitted googling patients and taking info home.

Not saying it’s right but I am saying it happens.

Now if she was only Facebook stalking the babies who were affected then that’s a pattern, but I would expect fully that defence are going to say she knows it was wrong but that Looking parents up on Facebook was something she routinely did. It’s not a smoking gun to me.

 

[Magurndy]

It's the NMC the RCN is the union , there's nothing in the code that says staff can't look up people on social media if it's in the public domain. Adding them and trying to establish contact would be very much a no no and inappropriate. Some people are very nosey it seems to me Lucy didn't have much going on in her life apart from work . Her parents lived in Hereford and there doesn't seem to have been a partner.

Taking handover sheets also happens people have loads of stuff in their pockets and after a 12.5 hour shift you are in a rush to go home. I've always then popped them in the confidential waste bin some might forget . I do 1:1 nursing at times if someone is stable and another junior colleague needs help you go and assist. You help eachother. I'm also a member of groups related to my practice interests on SM. She could be guilty but a lot of this stuff can be answered away as a HCP myself . The opening statement should be really strong but it's not grabbing me as concrete guilt.

I'd be really interested to find out if LL picked up lots of overtime as I suspect , she seemed obsessed with the job and that would throw the statistics off. I wonder if the defence will bring it up.

I've had it drummed into me with information governance that patient documentation does not leave the department ever and definitely does not go home with you. People have received a firm telling off for leaving notes in the scan rooms before overnight because cleaners etc can then access them. These things do happen but if you get caught doing it or something bad happens as a result, you won't really have a leg to stand on.

Also it may not be written directly in code of conducts. My regulatory body is the HCPC. But, they do take it into consideration and consider it bad character and unprofessional conduct if it forms part of a case against you. Seriously as a HCP you have to be extremely careful what you do. It isn't easy to get struck off but any black marks against your name will have a significant effect on your career. It's not worth risking it.

I realise that that’s all proper protocol, but there have been many nurses/public sector/bank workers even on this thread who have admitted googling patients and taking info home.

Not saying it’s right but I am saying it happens.

Now if she was only Facebook stalking the babies who were affected then that’s a pattern, but I would expect fully that defence are going to say she knows it was wrong but that Looking parents up on Facebook was something she routinely did. It’s not a smoking gun to me.

Yes it happens but you can't then use that as a defence. It's not professional conduct, patient notes leaving a hospital can lead to misconduct and should be incident reported when it happens. You are forgetting this is a court of law not just a discussion with a manager who may look the other way. In a court of law, these excuses won't stand up they are not good signs of professionalism and even some parts go against codes of conduct.

 

[Medieval Victorian]

When I worked at M&S there was someone like this miss perfect always interferin, turns out she was on the Rob loading up gift cards!

Something very similar happened at a place where I used to work. This one woman would go around acting like she owned the place, complaining constantly about everyone else's work and reporting people for the most minor things...only to be caught on CCTV walking out of the building and loading her car up with hundreds of pounds worth of office supplies from the stock cupboard

Maybe the whole interfering thing is so that other people she worked with would focus on that, rather than the

 

[veevee04]

I've had it drummed into me with information governance that patient documentation does not leave the department ever and definitely does not go home with you. People have received a firm telling off for leaving notes in the scan rooms before overnight because cleaners etc can then access them. These things do happen but if you get caught doing it or something bad happens as a result, you won't really have a leg to stand on.

Also it may not be written directly in code of conducts. My regulatory body is the HCPC. But, they do take it into consideration and consider it bad character and unprofessional conduct if it forms part of a case against you. Seriously as a HCP you have to be extremely careful what you do. It isn't easy to get struck off but any black marks against your name will have a significant effect on your career. It's not worth risking it.

If they struck off everyone who left a handover sheet in their pocket their would be 50 percent of the work force left . We have moved to electronic ones anyway which is much better for IG. I haven't searched any people on SM , I've had patients try to add me and inbox me. I blocked them and locked down my profile.. I found it incredibly intrusive so I wouldn't do that. I like to separate my private life I'm guessing some do ,they won't after this trial.

 

[Mrs Harrington]

If she is innocen, would that mean there’s still a baby killer on the loose do we think?

Yes as they have said it was deliberately done so if not her someone has done this.

 

[insectoverlords]

I've had it drummed into me with information governance that patient documentation does not leave the department ever and definitely does not go home with you. People have received a firm telling off for leaving notes in the scan rooms before overnight because cleaners etc can then access them. These things do happen but if you get caught doing it or something bad happens as a result, you won't really have a leg to stand on.

Also it may not be written directly in code of conducts. My regulatory body is the HCPC. But, they do take it into consideration and consider it bad character and unprofessional conduct if it forms part of a case against you. Seriously as a HCP you have to be extremely careful what you do. It isn't easy to get struck off but any black marks against your name will have a significant effect on your career. It's not worth risking it.




Yes it happens but you can't then use that as a defence. It's not professional conduct, patient notes leaving a hospital can lead to misconduct and should be incident reported when it happens. You are forgetting this is a court of law not just a discussion with a manager who may look the other way. In a court of law, these excuses won't stand up they are not good signs of professionalism and even some parts go against codes of conduct.

Her professionalism isn't what's on trial though, yes this is a court of law and a court of law isn't going to ignore the realities of nursing culture to create a picture that says forgetting to put a handover in the confidential waste bin or looked up a patients parent on Facebook means you killed someone.

 

[Magurndy]

Her professionalism isn't what's on trial though, yes this is a court of law and a court of law isn't going to ignore the realities of nursing culture to create a picture that says forgetting to put a handover in the confidential waste bin or looked up a patients parent on Facebook means you killed someone.

No but I guarantee the prosecution will use it to show a lack of professionalism and therefore discredit her character as a good nurse. That's what I am getting at. Little things will add up, it seems fairly inconsequential if there is no sinister motive to the facebook searching and the patient information in her house, but it can be used to discredit her as a good nurse and help paint a negative character profile.

 

[BettyCrockerr]

No but I guarantee the prosecution will use it to show a lack of professionalism and therefore discredit her character as a good nurse. That's what I am getting at. Little things will add up, it seems fairly inconsequential if there is no sinister motive to the facebook searching and the patient information in her house, but it can be used to discredit her as a good nurse and help paint a negative character profile.

I think the fact that she murdered a load of kids is enough to pain her a negative profile……

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

Her professionalism isn't what's on trial though, yes this is a court of law and a court of law isn't going to ignore the realities of nursing culture to create a picture that says forgetting to put a handover in the confidential waste bin or looked up a patients parent on Facebook means you killed someone.

But are all these small things just part of a larger thread that the prosecution are using to paint a picture of her?
"She may look sweet and innocent and people will say she was a good nurse but in reality she didn't care about laws, or rules or professional standards" or that sort of thing?
The things we are being presented with aren't enough to say she killed anyone, but this is a marathon not a sprint.

 

[Magurndy]

I think the fact that she murdered a load of kids is enough to pain her a negative profile……

Granted, if true, but I'm just trying to get people to understand that when you are a healthcare professional, you have to be extremely careful of what you do because anything slightly dodgy would be used against you if you ever find yourself in a position where you are accused of something even if not guilty. I've had it drummed in my head, not that I don't do the odd thing that probably doesn't look great to some people like be rather opinionated on facebook, but it's something we teach the students too both at the university and on placement. Healthcare professionals are held to a different level of professional standards to other professionals. If someone in a shop looks you up on facebook it's a bit weird and creepy but if someone in a medical field does that to a patient it starts to cross a boundary of patient/professional relationships and confidentiality.

 

[insectoverlords]

No but I guarantee the prosecution will use it to show a lack of professionalism and therefore discredit her character as a good nurse. That's what I am getting at. Little things will add up, it seems fairly inconsequential if there is no sinister motive to the facebook searching and the patient information in her house, but it can be used to discredit her as a good nurse and help paint a negative character profile.

It's so easy to respond to with a picture of an overworked nurse who cares so much that she wants to see how the family of someone who died in her care are getting on which is a normal part of closure even for a professional (I'm not saying I particularly think that is the case for her) that I'll be surprised if they bother.

 

[emilylpl]

If she is innocent (I’m on the fence with it) will it come down to someone else has done it deliberately or just a series of catastrophic mistakes?

Either way, it’s utterly horrendous for both the NHS and the hospital. Personally, my eyes would be on the hospital, as an outsider, than the individual. Utterly dispicable

 

[Magurndy]

But are all these small things just part of a larger thread that the prosecution are using to paint a picture of her?
"She may look sweet and innocent and people will say she was a good nurse but in reality she didn't care about laws, or rules or professional standards" or that sort of thing?
The things we are being presented with aren't enough to say she killed anyone, but this is a marathon not a sprint.

Yes! That's pretty much what I am trying to articulate with regard to this specific case.

It's so easy to respond to with a picture of an overworked nurse who cares so much that she wants to see how the family of someone who died in her care are getting on which is a normal part of closure even for a professional (I'm not saying I particularly think that is the case for her) that I'll be surprised if they bother.

Yes, and to be honest there are of course much more pressing arguments to make but doesn't matter if you are overworked or not, you are expected to adhere to your code of conduct at all times.... but I doubt they will have to go into the semantics of that

 

[veevee04]

It's so easy to respond to with a picture of an overworked nurse who cares so much that she wants to see how the family of someone who died in her care are getting on which is a normal part of closure even for a professional (I'm not saying I particularly think that is the case for her) that I'll be surprised if they bother.

This is true if there's any nurses or HCPs on the jury (it's possible there's a lot out there) then the opening statement will be quite poor for a lot of them.

 

[allyouneedislove]

I hope people who are following this case do take a break when needed. It’s been harrowing so far, I can’t get the poor babies and their families out of my head. Must be triggering for people whose babies have been in nicu xxx

 

[Mardymermaid]

I cant sleep as usual and was reading this article I think the rumours elsewhere of friends all defending her is quite misleading. This for example they arent saying shes definitely not done anything they are saying they never imagined she would. Which is common even with wives of serial killers saying they had no idea they lived a double life.

 

[super grateful]

I’d guess they would do a SAR to find any evidence of this whistle blowing from LL. I am pretty sure that would also include deleted documentation. I’d hope for her sake she has the evidence on her part of where she whistle blew. I’m pretty certain if they wanted to get rid of her there would be much easier ways to do it than accuse her of something so hideous.

For any nurses:

If you were understaffed/felt that machines weren’t working and it was effecting your job and many babies were dying would you turn a blind eye and crack on or would you feel it was your responsibility to do something about it to protect your self?

Every shift where we are short of staff and working the job of 2 Nurses, we are actively encouraged to do an incident report. Highlights the issue again and again to senior management and also, sadly, does go some way in covering ourselves. And reporting faulty equipment is just good practice. Often if it’s a consumable we retain it for testing.

thank you this is really helpful. So would all collapses, even if they survived, be serious enough for an incident report to be fed up to the consultants for review or would it just be deaths?

I would expect if there are any incident reports and formal reviews then these would form part of evidence, not just general medical records. I wonder what the timeline is for all this being pieced together in the hospital and how it was escalated. I’m sure it will be covered as I’m sure there were reports she was put on admin duties so they would have to cover how that came about.

Usually they would be included in the initial report email and see the incident, but they don’t do the investigating or resolving. If it’s something serious then yes they’d be more involved. But usually if a patient collapses and foul play isn’t suspected, then in my experience that isn’t reported as its “part of being critically unwell” and ICU is a rollercoaster of stability - if that makes sense? It would always be handed over though and be cause for thinking or investigation on each handover, medical and Nursing.

Spot on!

All this debate on here about whether you would / wouldn’t nosey at people on Facebook (for the record I totally would, and have, looked up colleagues but then again I work with adults in an office I don’t have patients / clients I just like to see what Sandra who sits three desks aways husband Brian looks like!!!)

Anyway, that debate is not the point.

The point is, she searched them on Facebook. They seem to be able to prove that.

Instead of just saying ‘yes I searched them on Facebook / I’m checking they are ok / I’m being nosey / I’m seeing how they’re getting on’
she’s denied doing it!
Edit - sorry she hasn’t denied it but she can’t explain why

That’s what I find very very odd.

Yeah this is true. I know I’d be frowned upon for doing it, especially if a police officer was the one asking me why, but if I genuinely had done nothing wrong then I’d rather take the hit for being nosey and misusing social media than being a murderer.

 

[libby_lou]

Following as I’m really intrigued of how this is heading initially i honestly thought she was innocent when first arrested few years back but now all these bits are coming out my heads turning, it’s not just that the police have spent years on this case and managed to get it to court there must be something amiss