Lucy Letby Case #18

[mRsKbRoOkS]

The evidence seems to concede that a new giving set and a new bag - a stock bag - was started at 10am when the first line tissued. LL was gone by then, and I can't see that she could have poisoned a stock bag on the off chance because it was anticipated that the first, bespoke TPN bag would be in use for 48 hours, so it was only by sheer chance that a second bag was put up. The evidence suggests that the level of contamination was the same. I think what has happened is that he has presented a number of scenarios, which include:
1. first long line tissues, long line is changed but giving set reused with new bag, thus contaminating new stock bag
(Problem with this scenario - he also said the amount of insulin would have had to be the same, and that was calculated at 0.58ml/hour. That is not consistent with a trace contamination)
2. first long line tissues, new line, giving set and stock bag used.
(problem with this scenario - that can only mean the stock bag was also contaminated, and to the same concentration, yet the use of a stock bag had not been anticipated, and when the need for it arose, LL had already finished her shift so wouldn't have been there to contaminate it)

For me, neither scenario points to her, and if the second scenario is correct, far from pointing to her, it would exclude her.

What you have said above, in much better detail is, why I think the first bag and second bag are the SAME! I do think she contaminated the first bag, the baby was in no doubt administered synthetic insulin, his blood sugar readings etc showed this. We can’t say oh perhaps that other nurse was the poisoner because it wouldn’t fit with what was happening to the baby prior to the tissuing of the line.

The first bag was 100 percent contaminated. The bag not being changed when the line tissued is for me the most logical explanation out of the three (also this bag was tested). I do think they will have a job in proving this sadly and we are back to the whole scenario of sub-optimal care coupled with a murderer it seems.

 

[docmum]

If she got the stock bag out to warm up and primed it again with insulin then it would explain her texts, as she would have been home once it was put up. So she might have been texting to know if things were continuing as she had manipulated.
There’s too many loose ends here so think I’ll wait for Monday before I speculate any more around bags and pumps. There seems to be a relevant chunk of detail to come imo.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

If she got the stock bag out to warm up and primed it again with insulin then it would explain her texts, as she would have been home once it was put up. So she might have been texting to know if things were continuing as she had manipulated.
There’s too many loose ends here so think I’ll wait for Monday before I speculate any more around bags and pumps. There seems to be a relevant chunk of detail to come imo.

that @docmum is completely plausible. Would match the time frame also . She would have gone off shift at around 8, not at all out of the realms of possibility.

I’m still leaning to the nurse not switching the bags, but like you say there is much more to come! I just hope she doesn’t get off because of how f*cking clever she has been!

 

[Faith61]

that @docmum is completely plausible. Would match the time frame also . She would have gone off shift at around 8, not at all out of the realms of possibility.

I’m still leaning to the nurse not switching the bags, but like you say there is much more to come! I just hope she doesn’t get off because of how f*cking clever she has been!

Me too....very worrying!!! Think defence will have a field day with this when it's his time...sadly

 

[MmmB777]

What you have said above, in much better detail is, why I think the first bag and second bag are the SAME! I do think she contaminated the first bag, the baby was in no doubt administered synthetic insulin, his blood sugar readings etc showed this. We can’t say oh perhaps that other nurse was the poisoner because it wouldn’t fit with what was happening to the baby prior to the tissuing of the line.

The first bag was 100 percent contaminated. The bag not being changed when the line tissued is for me the most logical explanation out of the three (also this bag was tested). I do think they will have a job in proving this sadly and we are back to the whole scenario of sub-optimal care coupled with a murderer it seems.

Can I politely say, exactly what I said was happening with the innocent questioning of the prof evidence is now happening. Apparently his evidence excludes Letby as the guilty party. At least we have some honesty same person that quoted me in just before to say that they believed Letby DID contaminate the first bag… so if I say I feel it’s a tad gaslighty, that’s why! Frazzled fella here.
If you conclude that it’s not Letby that poisoned the babies, then do you not have to say somebody else did and is still at large? Or just that she’s not guilty but also not innocent and should walk free despite trying to kill at least two children.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Can I politely say, exactly what I said was happening with the innocent questioning of the prof evidence is now happening. Apparently his evidence excludes Letby as the guilty party. At least we have some honesty same person that quoted me in just before to say that they believed Letby DID contaminate the first bag… so if I say I feel it’s a tad gaslighty, that’s why! Frazzled fella here.
If you conclude that it’s not Letby that poisoned the babies, then do you not have to say somebody else did and is still at large? Or just that she’s not guilty but also not innocent and should walk free despite trying to kill at least two children.

Hey, is your question directly to me? I don’t for a second conclude that letby hasn’t poisoned baby f or harmed any of the other babies In this case I think she has for all the reasons you have suggested. You are particularly good at highlighting the patterns etc in the trial, I’m no good at this.

Im just going through the insulin evidence and scenarios. I can see holes in two of the professors explanations (at the moment this may change), and the bag not being changed to me is the most plausible and I’m anticipating what myers will say when he eventually does defend letby on this particular charge. I’m genuinely worried. I think the scenario that I think did happen is the hardest one to prove. Because best practice tells us the bag should have been changed.

 

[hopefullynottoday]

QUOTE="mRsKbRoOkS, post: 12824495, member: 295404"]
@docmum is completely plausible. Would match the time frame also . She would have gone off shift at around 8, not at all out of the realms of possibility.

I’m still leaning to the nurse not switching the bags, but like you say there is much more to come! I just hope she doesn’t get off because of how f*cking clever she has been!
[/QUOTE]
except why would she? If a nurse handed over to me that here’s a bag ready for when you need it in 30 hours I’d think they were nuts. I’d discard it as it would be no good by then. Letby had no way of knowing that bag would need to be changed. So many questions, this is why I stated I was so confused x

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

I wanted to write this but couldn’t find the words. I asked a few questions, gave my own experience as to why this particular piece of evidence made no sense to me from my professional point of view and acknowledged I may have missed some pieces. A helpful comment form docmum helped me see that actually the wording wasn’t that the bag/line was definitely changed just that it was practice to. That was helpful as I had missed that and this was what I was hoping to gain from my original questions. I made no statement that I thought she was innocent but even if I did surely I am entitled to that opinion.
In return I was accused of defending her by picking at things that didn’t matter, thinking I must know more than a expert who is very intelligent and that I should speak to Ben as I clearly know more than him.
I will definitely return to lurking, I enjoy reading this thread so much but am not cut out for commenting I am far too sensitive

except why would she? If a nurse handed over to me that here’s a bag ready for when you need it in 30 hours I’d think they were nuts. I’d discard it as it would be no good by then. Letby had no way of knowing that bag would need to be changed. So many questions, this is why I stated I was so confused x

wouldn’t have been 30 hours would it ? Letby went off shift at 8 didn’t she ? Bag was changed at 10, 11 or 12 (that timing confuses me as some say noon and 10 has been mentioned). Anyway that’s only 2 - 4 to hour window. How long is it needed for a bag to be ready (I’ve no idea sorry) ? Perhaps there was some discussion at the end of the hand over that this was going to happen, maybe she anticipated it and went to be ‘helpful’? (Classic Lucy).

I’ve said I think the bags weren’t ever changed. But I don’t think the above is that crazy either.

 

[Daisydunn15]

If she got the stock bag out to warm up and primed it again with insulin then it would explain her texts, as she would have been home once it was put up. So she might have been texting to know if things were continuing as she had manipulated.
There’s too many loose ends here so think I’ll wait for Monday before I speculate any more around bags and pumps. There seems to be a relevant chunk of detail to come imo.

This seems unlikely, she would have no reason to prep for the stock bag when the TPN was expected to run for much longer and would only have been changed due to the line being tissued, which happened when she was off shift.
If LL is guilty of contaminating the first bag, and if the expert witness is telling us that the rate of infusion is the same until the evening, then there must have been no change of bag, which contradicts the evidence from the nurse on Thursday. She said it would be documented if, for some reason, they needed to reuse the original TPN and it wasn't an emergency situation where they didn't have time to get a new one, so why would they keep the old one up? It's all very confusing, hopefully it makes more sense later because I think the insulin cases are the strongest ones the defence has and I'm not entirely sure what they're actually claiming happened at this point.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

And this is why I need to mute the thread over the weekends!! We are all bickering and the reality is we won't get any clarity until Monday at the earliest.

It pretty obvious that everyone here is confused and 100% don't know what happened. No point pretending otherwise!!

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

And this is why I need to mute the thread over the weekends!! We are all bickering and the reality is we won't get any clarity until Monday at the earliest.

It pretty obvious that everyone here is confused and 100% don't know what happened. No point pretending otherwise!!

see I’m quite enjoying the discussion today, I didn’t realise I was bickering if I sound like I am I prOmise that isn’t my intention

 

[Daisydunn15]

wouldn’t have been 30 hours would it ? Letby went off shift at 8 didn’t she ? Bag was changed at 10, 11 or 12 (that timing confuses me as some say noon and 10 has been mentioned). Anyway that’s only 2 - 4 to hour window. How long is it needed for a bag to be ready (I’ve no idea sorry) ? Perhaps there was some discussion at the end of the hand over that this was going to happen, maybe she anticipated it and went to be ‘helpful’? (Classic Lucy).

I’ve said I think the bags weren’t ever changed. But I don’t think the above is that crazy either.

Yeah it would have been closer to 30hr, the bag wasn't due to be changed for ages, the change was unplanned due to the line being tissued which can't have been predicted and happened after she'd finished her shift.
I find it unbelievable that she poisoned all the stock bags, because there would have been more incidents, and I find it even more unbelievable that she poisoned one and it happened to be the one that was chosen.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Yeah it would have been closer to 30hr, the bag wasn't due to be changed for ages, the change was unplanned due to the line being tissued which can't have been predicted and happened after she'd finished her shift.
I find it unbelievable that she poisoned all the stock bags, because there would have been more incidents, and I find it even more unbelievable that she poisoned one and it happened to be the one that was chosen.

no I get what you are saying but I meant not 30 hours since the end of her shift. I’ve read back now and see the poster didn’t mean that either. I’m just saying perhaps there was some discussion at Around 8 about the bag being changed for one reason or another ?

But again I don’t think it was ever changed.

 

[Daisydunn15]

no I get what you are saying but I meant not 30 hours since the end of her shift.

It was meant to run for 48hr and dayshift finished between 7 and 8ish, so it would still have around 40hr left at the end of her shift.

ETA: that sounds very patronising with the basic maths now I've read it back, not my intention trying to make sense of the timeline in my own head!

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

It was meant to run for 48hr and dayshift finished between 7 and 8ish, so it would still have around 40hr left at the end of her shift.

ETA: that sounds very patronising with the basic maths now I've read it back, not my intention trying to make sense of the timeline in my own head!

no no don’t worry we’ve got our wires crossed. I understand what you are saying. I’m just saying if a bag needed Time to be ready, how long does this take? Maybe there was some discussion the bag may have needed to be changed at the end of her shift ? and helpful Lucy came to the rescue……

 

[Daisydunn15]

no no don’t worry we’ve got our wires crossed. I understand what you are saying. I’m just saying if a bag needed Time to be ready, how long does this take? Maybe there was some discussion the bag may have needed to be changed at the end of her shift ? and helpful Lucy came to the rescue……

Ah right, PP said it needs to be out the fridge for 4hr to cool down before it's used.
Not sure about the discussion at the end of her shift, that's a long time to keep a tissued line in between then and 10/11/12 whatever time it was after rereading I think it happened around 11.

ETA: warm up not cool down

 

[avabella]

QUOTE="mRsKbRoOkS, post: 12824495, member: 295404"]
@docmum is completely plausible. Would match the time frame also . She would have gone off shift at around 8, not at all out of the realms of possibility.

I’m still leaning to the nurse not switching the bags, but like you say there is much more to come! I just hope she doesn’t get off because of how f*cking clever she has been!

except why would she? If a nurse handed over to me that here’s a bag ready for when you need it in 30 hours I’d think they were nuts. I’d discard it as it would be no good by then. Letby had no way of knowing that bag would need to be changed. So many questions, this is why I stated I was so confused x
[/QUOTE]
Please don’t feel you can’t post, I’m passed the point of caring whether anyone thinks I’m acting smarter than the expert - when clearly, the opposite is true - I’m asking questions because I’m unsure!

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Ah right, PP said it needs to be out the fridge for 4hr to cool down before it's used.
Not sure about the discussion at the end of her shift, that's a long time to keep a tissued line in between then and 10/11/12 whatever time it was after rereading I think it happened around 11.

so if a TPN wasn’t out of the fridge at 11 when this was apparently changed. Not ready!, we can either assume the nurse used the same TPN bag then (as she didn’t wait 4 hours for it to cool down (edit -warm up ). Or they had one ready and waiting which would have had to be taken out when letby was on shift ? Do you see what I’m saying.

 

[hopefullynottoday]

except why would she? If a nurse handed over to me that here’s a bag ready for when you need it in 30 hours I’d think they were nuts. I’d discard it as it would be no good by then. Letby had no way of knowing that bag would need to be changed. So many questions, this is why I stated I was so confused x

Please don’t feel you can’t post, I’m passed the point of caring whether anyone thinks I’m acting smarter than the expert - when clearly, the opposite is true - I’m asking questions because I’m unsure!
[/QUOTE]
Ah thank you. I didn’t actually mean to post the first section of my reply and went and edited it away. I did agree with what you said but felt my reply this morning was a bit dramatic, I took things far too personally and needed a little break away. It’s a very hard subject isn’t it and I felt overwhelmed this morning. I will continue to add things when I feel relevant. Thank you

 

[Aberscot]

Did we hear how many bags were in stock and were they generic, ie not made up for the individual babies?
Also how are the bags stored , are they numbered for stock purposes so the second bag used would it have to be the next one list.
Also was there any other babies on it on the wadd.