Lucy Letby Case #17

[Haveyouanywool]

Gonna be honest, I have my doubts she will even go down for the insulin stuff. For me it really hangs on the c-peptide levels and proving that the insulin was deliberately administered, but that sort of thing is actually really complicated to understand. I’m educated more than the average person in this area and even I struggle to understand the science behind it to be honest, that’s why I think it will be really hard to convince a jury of her guilt.

I’m going to stick my neck out and say she’s going down. Key thrown away.
The expert, hopefully, will explain the insulin. The Jury don’t have to understand it at a molecular level. Just: it was synthetic insulin, someone done it. That’s already agreed. The battle is more than half won.

 

[candyland_]

She must have been attacking Baby E at 9pm as the prosecution have stated and simply walked off to the other side of the room. I can’t imagine why else the baby would be screaming so horrifically while she did nothing to help.

 

[docmum]

Excellent point Raspberry

I really do just get anxiety when I read some of the complete space cadets on Facebook. I worry the Jury will be like them. And she’ll get away with it.

I know this sounds OTT on my part, but genuinely last night I was sat worried about this.

i think being in the court room with grieving parents and distraught medical/nursing staff will carry a huge influence that the Facebook huns don’t see. They think she’s innocent based on a photo with a smiling LL holding a babygro. Seeing and hearing witness accounts, and watching LLs speech/reactions on being interviewed over a six month period will provide a huge weight that (thankfully really) none of us are privy to.

 

[Nelly's mum]

As I understand it - 2x glasses of wine down with no legal background - the note was found before she was charged. So it was referring to something she had prior knowledge of.

It is an agreed fact by prosecution and defence that she wrote the note but LL can contest the meaning of it - eg she could say it relates to her grievance or to the suggestion of poor practice that led to her being taken of nights etc - any old bollocks really.

Legally speaking, evidence is needed to support even a clear, detailed, signed confession - this note is none of these things, but it is still dynamite for the prosecution.

Who knows why LL wrote it, presumably the weight of her guilty conscience was playing on her mind - we are not SK's, so we wouldn't understand her motivation as to why she would kill and injure babies or write her thoughts on a post-it note.

 

[dual2099]

The salsa texts made her seem more normal to me if something horrible happens at work and you live alone you wana get out don’t you.
I don’t understand why it’s part of the prosecution.

They are building a picture, in isolation innocent enough, but what we are expecting to see is a pattern building and her ‘testing the waters’ to see what the reaction to her is.

We can already see from the reaction of the texts that this amount of deaths is unusual. She also claims in earlier texts to be very affected by it. Now we are seeing a more nonchalant attitude. ‘ oh dear, nothing I could do ‘ etc and then off salsa dancing. Ok, not a crime in itself but they are building a picture which is why it’s important.

 

[friedeggontoast]

Someone did it. If it wasn’t LL, it was someone else. All fingers and stats point to LL.

I know not everyone sees it as simply as that but I do. Lock her up and throw away the key.

 

[Tofino]

I know that no babies on the ward were receiving insulin but even if someone accidentally gave the baby a dose, would a normal dose cause the insulin readings to be that high? Or would it have to be two accidents - wrong baby and huge dose ?

Also the insluin the babies had were fast acting so wouldn’t explain why this baby had low blood sugars for so long even with treatment. So again, even if the wrong baby and wrong dose was an accident, the baby would have recovered a lot quicker with the dextrose treatment.

I just don’t know how the accident argument would ever stand, and even BM isn’t even suggesting it at this stage.

I still can’t get my head around another missed opportunity for the hospital to safeguard these babies from harm, especially those much further down the line.

 

[PsychoticPrincess]

Can I just say you are all amazing. I don’t have the mental capacity to follow the trial and understand it (toddler life ) but reading everyone’s posts here, breaking it all down is so helpful .

 

[Daisydunn15]

Where is this the on call consultant “couldn’t be bothered getting out of bed” coming from? All we have seen is she was in either her own accommodation, or hospital accommodation. Was called twice by registrar, plan made over phone both times, and she said she wouldn’t have done anything different if she’d been there, but now says she probably should have got there earlier in hindsight. Don’t understand why people are saying she couldn’t be bothered getting out of bed this was more reporting on what actually happened and no where in any report has it mentioned her not getting out of bed, we have no idea what she was doing while in accommodation, she could have been on the phone to other doctors, she could have been resting, she could have been catching up on notes for all we know. Either way it’s totally irrelevant and nowhere does it say about her being in bed, not fair to then say she couldn’t be bothered getting out of it

View attachment 1737346View attachment 1737347View attachment 1737348

Hospital accommodation is essentially a room with a bed so I'm not sure what else she could have been doing.
It's fine to say thst you wouldn't have done anything different but you just don't know that. You're getting bits of information over the phone, you're not seeing the full clinical picture but what she did know was that this baby had lost a massive amount of blood and they didn't know why. The reg had never seen a small baby bleed like that. This is a significant decline and I think the consultant should have been there.
I'm not sure why we're so keen to defend a doctor who fucked up. I'm not saying she caused his death, but she did fuck up and its not good enough. These babies deserved better.

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

I know we’ve debated this time and time again, but her texts just provide more evidence for me of guilt.

it’s the way she’s always texting people to tell them that a baby passed away or that a baby has gotten sick. She’s revelling in the attention that she’s getting. She wants to talk about it.

I know on the surface the texts look normal to some, but honestly when you look deeper I just feel like she has sinister reasons for always texting people about the babies.

 

[raspberryjuice]

Kicking myself for being taken in by this woman. I will say I do think some of these charges she may not have done and it is easier for people to blame her for everything. But these 2 babies have done it for me. If I was a juror the fact baby E didn't have a PM would be enough reasonable doubt for me to say officially NG. Baby F would be my first G verdict if I was a juror. The wickedness is chilling. One of mine was born under 5lb and only cause he was surprisingly healthy he didn't have to go neo natal like I'd been pre warned before giving birth. I'd never seen anything so tiny, he was the size of my friends hand. To think someone could cause harm to something that tiny and innocent, little babies half the size he was. It is unbearable. Parents upstairs oblivious whilst their babies are being snuffed out downstairs. It is giving me the chills I have actual goosebumps typing this.

I don’t think you should be kicking yourself for being taken in by her. Your perspective on it comes from a different place to ours because of your own little miracle babies and you’re naturally going to struggle even more to contemplate how somebody could be so evil to something so tiny when you probably received nothing but absolute pure kindness from the nurses involved in your babies care. It is such a lot to get your head around - it goes against absolutely everything every instinct and experience tells us should happen. Go easy on yourself

 

[DownBelow21]

Just listened to the podcast for baby E. Absolutely devastating. I sobbed hearing about that poor baby boy.

In my eyes she's definitely guilty, clear as day. Burn the fucking witch.

 

[coffeeandwine]

That 'He's a worry' text despite the other nurse saying he's doing heaps better then trying to diagnose him feels an awful lot like she's trying to create issues in advance to cover what she's about to do to these poor kids. And it's not the first time she's sent messages like that either.

 

[docmum]

Ok so the best way to think of it is how the body works in most systems which is a feedback loop. If you imagine person X hasn’t eaten and their blood sugar drops, they are starting to feel unwell - we’ve all been there! The body registers ‘my sugar is low - I will stop producing any insulin from my pancreas and I will go to the store cupboard in my liver for some glycogen which I will then make in to glucose to get my sugar up’. So if person x has a natural drop in blood sugar then insulin levels are low.
If someone has low sugar persistently they are either making too much insulin (it’s a natural hormone) or there is external insulin added in. When insulin is made by the pancreas, on its way to being made it produces a by product (or a ‘receipt’) which is the c-peptide. If you have exogenous insulin, your pancreas isn’t producing it and therefore isn’t producing a by-product at all and actually your feedback loop will be crying out for your pancreas to stop producing any insulin at all so the c peptides will be probably at the lower end of normal, but definitely not raised.
hope that makes sense? I have to understand things like this to be able to put them in to practice and feedback loops with hormones are so complex. Thyroid/parathyroid loops make me ‍

It's interesting that LL constantly seems to require the support and reassurance of her colleagues when she texts them but very rarely affords them the same in return. Really speaks to her narcissism IMO.

The salsa thing as evidence was admittedly weird to me but I wonder if prosecution are using it to start to build up a picture that contradicts the defence's characterisation of her as a woman in anguish. I've said before that I work in mental health and we're actively encouraged to keep up with our hobbies and self-care as our work can be physically and emotionally draining. Therefore, on its own, LL going to a salsa class during some tough shifts means very little to me. However, if we start to see a pattern of LL going out and living her best life while also putting on a front of being so deeply affected she's crying and writing anguished notes then the two won't mesh and could indicate more deception perhaps.

i love your name, and that you work in mental health. I hear ya!

 

[candyland_]

I do think that there will have been many cases of her harming babies for small, undetectable amounts of times. We’ve already heard from a nurse that said Letby wouldn’t call for help when one baby deteriorated but the nurse can’t recall which baby it was so they may not be in this case.. I believe she shouted at her for seeking help.

It’s effectively another caught in the act moment.

 

[tinkertailorsoldierspy]

It's an emotive case for starters. And it's also a complicated one as there's no hard evidence such as cctv footage catching anyone in the act.
It's all pieces of evidence taking from various sources combined with circumstances and anomalies.
It's bound to cause a bit of a divide in opinions.

Personally I think she's guilty and I don't say that lightly. I'm aware there's a lot more to come over the coming months and I'm very open to hearing the defence and changing my mind if applicable.

It's a case of agreeing to disagree at this point. Those believing she's guilty, those non guilty and those unsure. We don't all have to sing from the same sheet, but we should all respect others perspectives and opinions.

 

[crumpets2]

View attachment 1752686
I feel like she is pushing some blame onto the designated nurse here. I’m struggling to see why she always needs to be kept in the loop too in regards to updates with the babies - she wasn’t supposed to be involved in their care.

If I knew my colleagues had a bad night with an unwell patient, knowing they probably already feel shit, the last thing I’d do is text “did you hear..”. As if it’s a bit of gossip. Just seems a bit insensitive to me.

 

[starshine89]

The reason as to why baby E bled are what I need to be answered as to whether guilty or not guilty. I don’t feel like an air embolism would cause bleeding? But I’ve never experienced a patient with one so I could be wrong.
Did baby E bleed because of a GI issue or because of something LL did??

For me I feel that baby E deteriorated because of blood loss

I’ve attached something about shock Incase anyone else finds it interesting

Baby E weighed less than 3lb, so at the very most weighed 1.3kg which would mean a total circulating volume of blood of approx 105mls (not very much at all)

Compensated shock is if your body is losing fluid but your body is still coping quite well not showing any signs observation wise (25% of blood volume lost which would be approx 26mls which is what we know baby E lost)

Any more blood loss than the 25% your body goes into decompensated shock and you’ll see signs of low blood pressure fast heart rate low oxygen saturations etc

This is what appears to have happened to baby E, he dropped his saturations quite low his blood pressure was low and he continued to bleed during resuscitation efforts which would mean even more volume being lost so slim chance of recovery

I’m kind of rambling but thought it might be helpful to explain my view from a medical background and why to me I don’t think it was an unexpected deterioration from when baby E began to bleed which is what casts doubts in my mind as to LL being guilty

Whether she did something to cause the bleeding to begin with is the big question for me

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

Agreed. It’s obsessive. She can’t leave it at work, talk to people face to face. She has to be talking to colleagues about it all the time. It’s unhealthy.

Yes exactly this! It’s obsessive! The texts, the Facebook searches, the sending of cards and taking photos of them and wanting to be in the room with the sickest babies and not leaving the grieving parents alone, the paperwork at home…She is obsessed with the death of these babies.

people can say “oh the texts aren’t suspicious” or “oh the notes at home aren’t suspicious”, (and I agree on there own they probably aren’t) but when you put everything together it seems highly obsessive and warped to me.

 

[tay65]

The nursing colleague, who cannot be identified, later messaged Letby from the hospital to say Child F was "a bit more stable" and medics were "trying various tests to try to find answers".

Letby replied: "Oh dear. Thanks for letting me know."

Her colleague said: "He's defo better tho. Looks well, handling fine."

Letby later asked: "Wonder if he has an endocrine problem then. Hope they can get to bottom of it.

Hey all, been following but not as closely as have been super busy of late.

Anyway I know this has already been mentioned but ‘oh dear’ ???! That really is standing out to me! Why would you reply oh dear to the above message ? Some thing along the lines of ‘that’s great, thanks for letting me know” would have been way more fitting and appropriate. I mean the colleague said the baby was more stable, that is great news given the circumstances not an oh dear moment at all!!

And notice the suggested diagnosis again in the following message! Our letby seems to do this quite often. Perhaps an endocrine problem shut the f*ck up

Yes she was being given some good news, the baby was improving. She was always so heavily invested in these babies you would think her immediate reaction would have been "oh good" not "oh dear". This indicates her immediate reaction was one of disappointment.