Lucy Letby Case #17

[Aberscot]

I voted guilty, nothing I have heard so far has changed my mind but if defence come out with something I am completely open to changing my mind.
I am not medical but when more than one Dr comes out and says the babies were harmed deliberately, I can’t ignore that as they are actually the experts. If it wasn’t Lucy, nobody has came up with someone else who just happened to be there at all the unexplained deaths.
I agree the care was not up to the standards, but if that was the cause of babies dying we wouldn’t be here as the CPS have considered this in there case. Also if it was down to bad care, why were their not more deaths in babies that were in worse condition in some of the cases we have seen ?
Whatever the outcome my thoughts are with the parents who will never get over the loss of their precious babies no matter what happened

 

[Lucyxxxx]

Little more detail on texts for anyone interested:


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The nursing colleague told Lucy they were running various tests to try and find answers. Lucy's first part of the reply is 'oh dear'. Freudian slip? Starting to see things in a very new light indeed.

 

[Stiltoncheese]

I was just coming to say exactly this. The live feed reporting sort of misses the importance of the peptides and the insulin (I’m sure in court it was clearer though) so I’m really grateful that we’d had such a detailed and clear explanation of how it works before we heard the evidence being presented.




Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, explains on this count [for Child F], Dr Gibbs will not be asked any questions on his evidence.

He adds that Dr Gibbs will be cross-examined on a future occasion in the trial on evidence that has been raised.

so they’re not questioning anything Dr Gibbs has said today, and her defence accept “The doctor says this insulin result showed Child F had been given a pharmaceutical form of insulin administered, and he "should have never received it".”

Was just going to post this. That's hugely damning in my opinion and might just be the undoing of LL in the jury's eyes.

 

[coffeeandwine]

It's interesting that LL constantly seems to require the support and reassurance of her colleagues when she texts them but very rarely affords them the same in return. Really speaks to her narcissism IMO.

The salsa thing as evidence was admittedly weird to me but I wonder if prosecution are using it to start to build up a picture that contradicts the defence's characterisation of her as a woman in anguish. I've said before that I work in mental health and we're actively encouraged to keep up with our hobbies and self-care as our work can be physically and emotionally draining. Therefore, on its own, LL going to a salsa class during some tough shifts means very little to me. However, if we start to see a pattern of LL going out and living her best life while also putting on a front of being so deeply affected she's crying and writing anguished notes then the two won't mesh and could indicate more deception perhaps.

 

[Tofino]

We have a fifth page for the wiki now which is for child E and F and it’s up to date including Dr Harkness today (he had a long day!)

Lucy Letby Case 5 Wiki

I also moved the opening statement for each child back to the first page for a couple of reasons. It seems it gets used a lot so thought it best to have it all in one place again as I was splitting it up depending on which child we were on.

Then the following pages are for the evidence we’ve heard so far. It means I duplicate the opening statement but I think it might flow better this way. Also means I just have to add a new page and carry on rather than keep shuffling stuff around.

each page has an ‘intro’ which tells you what’s on each page.

Hope it works for you all, I know some of you use it a lot (looking at you @OldBlondie ).

 

[PumpkinxQueen]

Honestly dreading the rest of the trial tbh, just because she got so more… physical? Is that the right term? So sad to think these sweet babes should be 7-8 and getting excited for Xmas ugh. My heart.

 

[raspberryjuice]

I wonder if the salsa texts are to show she’s done this and just doesn’t care? She’s left work, knowing she’s set this baby up with a TPN bag poisoned with insulin that she knows has the potential to kill at worst or make the baby extremely poorly at best and rather than sitting at home feeling guilty or regretting what she’s done, she’s off out dancing with a colleague. It shows she’s completely removed from any kind of normal emotional response to what she’s doing.

 

[Stiltoncheese]

I've always been on the unsure fence as wanted to hear everything first before. But this is so damning and as BM isn't even questioning it, it is now swaying me towards guilty. I fail to believe there were 2 different people harming babies at the same time, yet there is absolutely no evidence given so far to show how this could have accidentally been administered, it has to be intentional. And so far, the common denominator is LL

 

[candyland_]

I haven’t caught up with the live reporting today - I will tonight but I can’t help but wonder what could have made the baby scream and why LL was away from the cot not doing anything. I worry she inflicted pain and stood back and enjoyed it or at best she ignored a baby who was in great distress.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I think this too


This was my thinking too

The fact that LL said to mum that the ng tube irritated the back of Baby E’s throat suggests a thought process to me.

 

[raspberryjuice]

12:28pm
At that time (4pm), Letby's phone receives an invitation from an estate agency firm confirming a viewing for a property in Chester, near the hospital. This home would be the address where Letby stayed until her 2018 arrest.


I wonder what the relevance of this detail will be? I know I’ve pointed out from the timeline before that she moved in the middle of all of this, and it made it seem more suspicious that she still had notes for some of the babies at home despite moving. But it’s weird to include her getting a text about a house viewing, right?

 

[IGiveUp22]

I wonder if the prosecution are including those texts to build a picture up of her mental state at the time to try prevent any suggestion from the defence that she wasn’t “in a good place” or was “effected negatively” by the deaths on the ward so that’s why she searched the parents/wrote the note etc. they’re suggesting her life outside work was “normal” - she was socialising, going to dance lessons, completing on a house. She isn’t presenting as a person who is traumatised by a series of unexpected deaths.
I also appreciate people act differently & people go against the norm but these might be red flags to the police.

regarding the texts - I just can’t fathom that it doesn’t appear at any point she comforts her colleagues, or praises her colleagues. It is all very me me me. Even bringing herself into it when the parents said bye.

just listening to the podcast for baby E - not that I didn’t think she was guilty before, but just re listening to the mum’s account I 100% believe that baby was bleeding at 9pm & LL was doing nothing to help & the dr wasn’t called for over an hour later. Just so heartbreaking

 

[PeninsulaAndOriental]

The insulin is far too damning to ignore.

the defence accept it was foul play, but it wasn’t Lucy. So we just happen to have another killer on the ward, who wanted to frame Lucy

still I see people in denial on Facebook. It’s beyond ridiculous people won’t open their eyes and see what’s infront of them.

 

[raspberryjuice]

I absolutely want her to have a fair trial, she deserves it and more importantly the families deserve it so there can be no appealing the verdict is the trial is deemed unfair.

Doesn’t mean *I* can’t believe she’s guilty without hearing the defence. I’m not sat in court. I’m sat on my sofa, drinking a cuppa, half way to a medical degree with all the research I’ve done for this case…!

 

[candyland_]

Regarding the texts about salsa and buying the house - They are a quick change from her being so upset by the previous deaths.. it could be that she’s on a high from getting away with it. The ‘poor me’ mask could be slipping because she knows she’s getting away with it so now she isn’t so bothered. It’s strange that these ones haven’t affected her.

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

Must be tough for the jury members over the Christmas period if seeing friends and family

“ so what have you been up too”
“ how’s work”
“Any recent holidays or plans?”

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

People will probably disagree, but even baby D was a strong sign of guilt for me. Yes she needed oxygen and was unwell with an infection, but loads of babies need oxygen… it doesn’t mean they suddenly collapse. She was a full term baby with fully developed lungs and no reasonable natural cause was found.

 

[LilyRose1234]

@LilyRose1234 are you able to clarify why these nurses are essentially having to defend themselves when they’re actually witnesses? Your insight has been really interesting.
Notice how her colleagues are not having to look at her for whatever reason. Again, speaks volumes?

Thank you, I’m not sure anyones ever described my ramblings on criminal procedure interesting before haha.
It might look like they’re defending themselves, and a lot of witnesses feel like they’re on trial when they’re being cross examined, but BM’s job is to question and challenge the evidence, not just blindly accept what the witness is saying (because they can be wrong, untruthful etc). The obvious consequence is that it looks like the witnesses are having to defend themselves. What doesn’t help is that when cross examining you ask leading questions, so one’s with yes or no answers, and you don’t want the witness you’re cross examining to go off piste - so BM will look at what the defence is for that baby, and ask specific questions that like up with that. Because they’re yes/no, it can be quite quick fire, and hopefully if the barrister has done it right, ends with something that puts doubt in the juries mind e.g “did you see LL administer the insulin” “no” “so it’s possible another nurse did it” and the answer would likely be “yes” because if they didn’t see her do it then it is possible. Given a Obviously this is speculative because we don’t know for sure what the defence is but just an example of how cross examination works and why it can seem brutal - and definitely is more uncomfortable for ordinary witnesses, and of course victims, that professional witnesses who are used to it.

 

[PeninsulaAndOriental]

I do think that there will have been many cases of her harming babies for small, undetectable amounts of times. We’ve already heard from a nurse that said Letby wouldn’t call for help when one baby deteriorated but the nurse can’t recall which baby it was so they may not be in this case.

I would imagine that yes, we won’t get justice for all the babies strictly speaking. But when this is over and LL is thrown in jail for life with the key destroyed, there will be a public inquiry.

The Judge chairing the Inquiry will then review evidence for each case brought forward, and throughout Letbys career, and then issue a ruling on each.

I have to assume that Letby is like most healthcare serial killers - they start killing as soon as they’re qualified.

if we assume Letbys final year was her getting out of control (again, following the MO of most HCP killers) her body count is likely to be around 30. Could be more, could be less.

But I would bet my house on it these aren’t the only 7 babies she’s killed. That I am sure of.

 

[Milktray]

I was really prepared to listen to the defence, but my God, I don't know how they are going to defend this.

And those texts. Previously, Ive not thought that the texts were strong enough...but they are odd.
The baby is doing well and her response is 'oh dear'. What the actual fuck? I would have thought the response would be 'oh great'. Of course it doesn't determine guilt, but it's an odd thing for a neonatal nurse to say, as they usually praise every little achievement for these tiny fighters.

The salsa texts have obviously been brought up for a reason, I don't know if it's to prove that LL wasn't as anguished as she made out but I think that's too easy for defence to pick apart. They can easily suggest that poor mental health can be masked.
I'm thinking maybe there was a certain distraction at the salsa session that was noticed by her colleague. Or did she mention something that seemed strange? I suppose that's one that we will hear more about.