Lucy Letby Case #15

[Weeder]

I love research (wish I enjoyed studying as much in school, as I do now ) – There’s been a couple of quite similar cases (same patterns as LL, reactions and falsifying notes etc) One was diagnosed with Munchausen syndrome by proxy and the other was said to have a Hero Complex. Do we think either of those things could be a possibility for LL? I’m also still considered Narcissistic Personality Disorder for her too. There HAS to be some mental health element to this, purely because of the strategic aspects like falsifying medical notes etc.

I'm more leaning towards complete psychopath with hero complex than anything

 

[OldBlondie]

I’ve seen her expression of emotion/lack of emotion in Court mentioned several times now. Defendants are absolutely advised to not react in Court. Told not to stare at witnesses, no shaking of the head, not allowed to mumble under your breath etc etc. On top of that if she is innocent I would imagine she is absolutely terrified, almost definitely on anti-depressants and possibly other meds to get through the imprisonment etc She mayb quite literally not have slept since she was first arrested so may very well appear totally emotionless. I do not think any inference can be taken for how she looks in court.

Also a thought of her “I don’t remember” answers to police. Her solicitor will have advised her very strongly to answer that way if she isn’t actually able to remember something “fully”. You never want to be giving a “I think it was because…or I think I did…” answers, only definitive answers. If you don’t know for certain, then you don’t guess. Another golden rule.

Pretty sure she didn’t give any I think kind of answers at all. Was all just didn’t remember or know why

*that we know of so far anyway

 

[PumpkinxQueen]

I would think anyone male or female, funny looking or not, would be medicated and unable to sleep if they were falsely accused of something so horrific. I would say the same thing about anyone. I wasn’t saying we have had that confirmed as information, but then huge amounts of things are being said in these threads as if they are facts but may very well not be.

I see the point you are trying to make about the hanging of the TPN bag, grief etc. But for me, personally, the doctor that claims to have never heard a baby on NICU cry/cry for so long would make me far more suspicious. You can’t work on NICU for very long and not come across a baby born to an addict. That truly is a cry/scream you will never forget and unless it was this doctors first day training as a doctor and first day in NICU then I just do not believe he’d never heard a NICU baby cry.

Falsely accused wot??

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

I agree, reading a big wall of text makes me skim read.

The things I think defence will raise regarding the lines. I'm going to paraphrase some articles, some A&P and try and explain what I think will drive a big hole in Baby A (forgive me if I'm wrong about which baby)

I'm also back on the fence and wobbling round like a weeble. Leaning to guilty but KENT. The thing that sways me to guilty is as always the statistics and data about her presence, which leaves me kind of weeding out what I think are the medical failings

This might not have happened fellas but

In ITU and I've since learnt, in PICU the lines you insert in to the major vessels need priming with saline. The line insertion itself can leave miniscule pockets of air in the vein or I guess arterially in UAC, often resolved by further flushing with saline, and apart from thrombisis of the blood clot variety, embolism (full stop) is why you always keep something running through these lines, if you cant run bulk you run a blood thinning miniscule solution. (this is in adult but the same risk applies) ...lines have air in them pre application. I'm really really scared the clearly inexperienced Reg fucked up and didn't prime the line and tried to insert dry. I can't blame LL for this at the moment. There's also the question of 5 applications, one of which was possibly advanced too far. Funny how the line along the spine showing non radio opaque something (yes, yes, they say it's air, but bowel obstruction reads as air, some liquids like a blood filled cavity can read as air, holes can read as air..all they know is it isn't showing radio opaqueness and they think it might be air) and that's also the possible pathway of a mis inserted line, whereas it's not definite this is where injected air would coalesce.



This is all just me thinking out loud, but the Reg, I believe also whipped the line out during resus...so I'm concerned a misplaced line was moved backwards quickly leaving a vacuum in which multiple embolism were released in to or at least coalesced due to backward pressure.

Most of all if that line wasn't in the right place at any one time we're looking at cardiac tamponade, which I'm not sure we'll see on xray on a neonate. There are a lot of difficulties with spotting lines on Xray, many trusts have started using radio opaque guide wires which are left until xray then removed or they use injectable die. This is clearly heard in court when one expert suddenly realised the catheter wasn't where she thought it was. Normalising risking this in a tiny baby is sooooo fucked up. I think the consultant issues may be more widespread than Kent. Why oh why aren't they calling consultants after failed lines and acidotic babies? Arrogance? Fear?

Without knowing for sure this child didn't have underdeveloped lungs we can't know if CPR caused a pneumothorax/air bubble. I know the actual experts will have probably gone through all of this while coming to their own conclusions, but Kent shows us how far apart case notes and actuality can be and how protective staff are of their poor practice.

Now I'm going to be that person who begs everyone to read the Kent document, I have a friend partially involved in this situation. I would quite happily go slap that consultant. Her Grandson died having been discharged WAY early, underweight and not thriving, it's recorded as a SIDS.


So none of this is what I believe happened, just what could have happened but in the face of what seems to me to be medical arrogance and lies we might not get that far.

Once again, this is stuff that goes through my head because I don't know what happened . I'm going to take a closer look at baby D for my own satisfaction too. Something's not right there.

Once more for those at the back -----insulin deaths = guilty. A and D ..hmmmmm....





EDIT :chuckling at my dissing big walls of text, then I post this shit waffle

Edit No 2, Dye not die

When you said yesterday you had another theory for how the pockets of air got there, I had a think and wondered if it could be that the lines hadn't been flushed. Is that what you are saying (sorry, brain not working brilliantly at the moment)?

 

[avabella]

View attachment 1728713


They searched her house after 1st arrest, this was when note was found. She was subsequently arrested again after this, but not sure if house was searched again after 2nd arrest

I feel like if it was as significant as that seems, the prosecution would have made WAY more of a big deal about it?

 

[OldBlondie]

I voted guilty this time for the first time. I know it has already been asked and I didn't really understand the reply... are we still only on agreed facts? Because if we are and I already sway towards guilty, I wonder what we have to come.

I think we are still on agreed evidence, anything agreed by both sides can be read out as a statement, but anything the defence don’t agree on they can question the witness about in court. This is the prosecution’s turn so I think the witnesses we have heard from are all witnesses for the prosecution, but defence can question them. So I think it’s a mix of agreed evidence and the prosecution’s case atm. Someone can probably put their legal hat on and give you a better answer than mine though. I think also this case isn’t being presented just quite the same as other cases usually would. I think it’s the agreed evidence for each baby presented one at a time, along then with the prosecutions witnesses for each baby too. After all that defence will start their case

 

[Tifastrife]

The Christmas Day Facebook search was at 23:26.

Sorry to be a pain, what's the significance of this? I saw someone mentioned a pattern to the Facebook searches but can't find anywhere explaining what the pattern is?

 

[PumpkinxQueen]

I thought sociopathy and psychopathy were, or were part of, personality disorders. They’re not classed as mental illnesses.
I’m trying to understand someone like Dr Harold Shipman then, I know he had a disciplinary at some point (was it alcohol related), but he seemed to have fooled a lot of people a lot of the time.

Definitely still a mental disorder!

 

[candyland_]

They searched her house in 2018. Would they have searched it again?

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

Just to say, to no one in particular, I have a nursing background and I think she’s guilty.
Stating that most with a nursing or legal background are learning towards not guilty, mmm…I’m in no way sure that’s the case.

I meant that the ones who have seemed to be on the fence the most have seemed to be medical etc, not that all medical or legal think she's not guilty, if you see what I mean. There's a fair few of us think she's guilty too.

It's the medical evidence with holes in it that I think has made some of us wary. Firmly in the G camp here, but not because of anything the experts have said. And I worry she will get off because I'm not sure how beyond reasonable doubt is going to fly with the jury, when there's so many contradictions.

 

[Hinchawakening]

Personally I’m confident that the Jury are getting a much more thorough overview than we are and anything that seems glaringly inept to some may seem less so to them. So, yes, I am giving the Prosecution the benefit of the doubt, due to limits in reporting, hope I’m correct!
If she has done this, I would really hate to see her getting away with it

Is this a thing though? Like genuinely I’ve always thought that if they’re reporting, it has to include everything that’s said? Otherwise what’s the point? Don’t give us half a story… That’s just something I’ve made up on my own head I’m guessing, but does anyone actually know? Can someone message the reporter again I’ll be annoyed if we discover there’s like full blown convos missing from each day

There is the possibility that she will be found guilty of some and not guilty for other charges. Just putting that out there.

Deffo a possibility. I’d be well shocked if that happened. Or could the judge when giving the jury direction say like ‘you have to either find her guilty on all counts beyond reasonable doubt, or not guilty on all counts’ is that a thing? For me, I think if she’s found guilty of one, she’s guilty of all and similarly, if she’s found not guilty for one, she’s not guilty for all

 

[OldBlondie]

It doesn’t add up. If they made her so upset she wouldn’t be obsessively checking up on them.
They say she took an unusual interest in Baby E and Fs parents - I wonder why those in particular.

Baby I’s too

I was talking about the thought process tbh, the anecdote about my cat was a light hearted example of apportioning blame on ourselves when it might not be correct.

It’s alright I can read the room, nobody GAF about my cat, and my humour is indistinguishable, which hun is gonna proof read my posts from now on pls help a fella out.

Sorry fella, I just didn’t see it . But if that’s your interpretation that’s fine, I just can’t believe that myself. At least you had a thought process tbf though

*EDITED just to add in I’ve nothing against cats

and I said I’m sorry I couldn’t see what you did, it’s being suggested that I was dismissing you, hope it didn’t come across like that to you

 

[OldBlondie]

The police began their investigation in May 2017 over 12 months before she was first arrested. She was placed on admin duties in late 2016 but I can't remember when the hospital suspended her, it may have been before she got arrested. The note does mention a police investigation though.

After the two internal reviews the police were called in, so LL would have known that before her arrest. The note doesn’t tell us much, she might have been stating there’s a police investigation into unexplained deaths, but not necessarily into her being the cause of them. Think everyone is hospital would have been aware it had become a police investigation

 

[PumpkinxQueen]

Yeh, but not mental illnesses. BA couldn’t get a transfer to Rampton for her Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another, she had to come up with something else for that.

Both terms are used interchangeably! Just depends which term you prefer, I guess. But there are specifically 10 recognized personality disorders (3 of them making up the ‘dark triad’)

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

Devils Advocate… Maybe she is totally unaware of her manipulation?

Re the notes - I wonder how many we’re talking like a couple? An A4 binder full?

Maybe. She could just really be totally socially inept and be a loner for that reason too.

 

[Appletiser]

Re LL not being subtle/obvious red flags - I could imagine it’s a terrifying realization that a nurse might be harming patients, and I could also imagine how terrifying it would be for a colleague to report said nurse, there’s so many variables to reporting anyone for anything, but accusing someone of such a serious crime (whether true or not) could have serious implications for another employee. I think you’d probably also question yourself like “Did I really see what I saw?” Etc. More so when someone already has an established reputation with colleagues as being a good nurse & nice person, imagine being that ONE doctor to accuse that well liked nice nurse as hurting innocent babies? Hindsight is 20/20 - I’m sure everyone who witnessed anything suspicious feels guilty about it everyday, and I really hope they all find some level of peace eventually.’ It’s also just such a vile act, it’s quite literally unbelievable what anyone would want to harm a child - let alone a child in hospital who is already very ill.



Yes! Unless a second suspect was presented, I am on the guilty train. I think we really need to give detectives some credit because they are usually extremely thorough with such serious crimes & the subsequent investigation, lots of police express their upset when CPS don’t accept a case or when a judge passes such a lenient sentence.

That’s an interesting point, do you reckon there could have ever been any other suspects or was it always LL as she seemed to be the one that was consistently always there ?

 

[OldBlondie]

If it's worth anything this is why I don't read too much into the note either!

BUT I totally appreciate that others see it very differently and do!!

Also, I totally got the point of the cat story!!

I’m lost cos I thought OP was talking about police interviews as it was a direct reply to my post to do with that, but now it’s turned into something about the note I’m genuinely lost atm

 

[starshine89]

These poor parents how awful for them having to relive all this and they sound like they had so much trust in LL.

in terms of complaining about being too quiet I don’t think that’s that odd, I like to be busy at work so if you go from having some really busy shifts to not much happening the time can go really slowly especially on a night shift

 

[OldBlondie]

If it's worth anything this is why I don't read too much into the note either!

BUT I totally appreciate that others see it very differently and do!!

Also, I totally got the point of the cat story!!

I haven’t made any posts on my thoughts on the note, so get why you don’t read much into it, my post was more to do with timeline of note. Guess everyone is probs going to interpret it differently and we don’t know for sure so it’s for me not as key as the rest of circumstantial evidence, but lots disagree

 

[stardust1]

Can anyone do a new thread please?