Lucy Letby Case #13

[Haveyouanywool]

There’s loads of reasons for air in the body after death, unless the prosecution have something to clearly indicate air embolus then I’m really not sure what the defence need to say, saying something is possibly the cause is a long long way from proving LL deliberately did anything,

3/5 is not quite the case either she’s said to have attempted to murder some of these children on more than one occasion bringing the strike rate implausibly low, the study shows 1 survivor out of like 50, and they were the only one diagnosed at the time of it happening, which obviously increased the chances of survival, 3/5 is still pushing it if you ask me,

And the x ray, are you talking about the one that shows air near the spine? If so as I said there’s plenty of ways we’re being told air can be found in the body post mortem

Dr Evans said he used the Differential Diagnosis method which is not just having different possible diagnosis of equal probability.
It is using a process of elimination, using further tests and information as necessary, to arrive at a conclusion.
I very widely used method.

Differential diagnosis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[OldBlondie]

On the live feed from the Chester standard there is no mention of Letby administering medication prior to these collapses and only that she's one of two nurses signing for it. I take it the other nurse would be the one designated for child D? Will we find out who administered the medication once the prosecution call their witnesses?

Yes I think it’s already said today the other nurse in the room was the designated nurse for Baby D. I don’t think we will know for definite who exactly administered which bit, as so far no one has been able to be 100% sure of their own memory of who did which bit (apart from LLs convenient memory recollection in interview that she didn’t do some of feeds/meds with babies). It’s more the implication I think by signing for it each of the three times it was administered, and also being in same room as baby D that she would easily have had the opportunity to do something to baby D, shortly all three times before she collapsed

 

[Hannah_204]

I really think the way she looks plays a big part in peoples perceptions of the case. Stereotypically good looking by society’s standards. Young. Female.

If some creepy old bloke eg. David Fuller was on the stand, I think there would be different opinion.

Yes this is so true and she seems to have had a good upbringing. Also no clear motive yet and it’s not the kind of evidence like they've found bodies in the garden so it all just feels hard to get your head around.
Its easier to believe it’s all a mistake and a coincidence because it makes no logical sense to a normal person.
I think with it being such an emotive case as well it’s probably why we’re all so invested.

 

[OldBlondie]

Maybe because the pathologist does't agree with the new cause of death from Dr Evans

But then why wouldn’t he have been called yet for any of the babies where there’s been no new bits to do with cause of death, and Dr Evans hasn’t given new cause of death, just added extra info to do with diaphragm

 

[Weeder]

I can't get over the blood gases comment made by the other nurse. It totally sent my down a Google wormhole and a quick blood gases revision sesh, and I think that's what Myers will eventually use. I'm now somewhat conversant with hypoxia-ischaemic encephalopathy and the expected AGPAR scores in neonate. I'm not making any sort of diagnosis but just going to look at gases in neonates led me to affects of prolonged hypoxia, so timings are going to be important here too, regarding how long the baby was hypoxic for, but also how acidotic they were because I've also now read that it can be undetectable via the umbilical cord, I think the metabloic ph can be read as normal despite gas changes. I'm fairly sure he's going after the hospital, possibly the medical staff

Now, I'm a very ex nurse, and some of that made me do my learning frown. I can't imagine how the jury are feeling , let alone how they'll feel if Myers does start arguing this stuff.

 

[avabella]

I can't get over the blood gases comment made by the other nurse. It totally sent my down a Google wormhole and a quick blood gases revision sesh, and I think that's what Myers will eventually use. I'm now somewhat conversant with hypoxia-ischaemic encephalopathy and the expected AGPAR scores in neonate. I'm not making any sort of diagnosis but just going to look at gases in neonates led me to affects of prolonged hypoxia, so timings are going to be important here too, regarding how long the baby was hypoxic for, but also how acidotic they were because I've also now read that it can be undetectable via the umbilical cord, I think the metabloic ph can be read as normal despite gas changes. I'm fairly sure he's going after the hospital, possibly the medical staff

Now, I'm a very ex nurse, and some of that made me do my learning frown. I can't imagine how the jury are feeling , let alone how they'll feel if Myers does start arguing this stuff.

That would make sense for his opening statement 'this was not her fault'.

I cycle back to the fact WHY would she take it to trial. And the only realistic reason is because she knows she has a good defence and has faith in the justice system. I don't think she seems particularly 'limelight-ish' to be reliving crimes or anything. She just doesn't seem to fit a murderous profile? I think most of us, when pushed, could probably kill someone if we HAD to. But to kill someone with no reason? Takes a different level kind of person. And to kill BABIES?? Takes another whole level.

Urgh it baffles my brain so much.

 

[OldBlondie]

I can't get over the blood gases comment made by the other nurse. It totally sent my down a Google wormhole and a quick blood gases revision sesh, and I think that's what Myers will eventually use. I'm now somewhat conversant with hypoxia-ischaemic encephalopathy and the expected AGPAR scores in neonate. I'm not making any sort of diagnosis but just going to look at gases in neonates led me to affects of prolonged hypoxia, so timings are going to be important here too, regarding how long the baby was hypoxic for, but also how acidotic they were because I've also now read that it can be undetectable via the umbilical cord, I think the metabloic ph can be read as normal despite gas changes. I'm fairly sure he's going after the hospital, possibly the medical staff

Now, I'm a very ex nurse, and some of that made me do my learning frown. I can't imagine how the jury are feeling , let alone how they'll feel if Myers does start arguing this stuff.

I must have missed what the other nurse said will have to go catch up again now I haven’t a clue what any of what you have said means, so hoping one of the very medically knowledgeable people on here can break it down, so people that like me can understand as it sounds like you’ve found something you think is quite significant here, which will be good to hear

 

[slingo16]

Dr Evans said he used the Differential Diagnosis method which is not just having different possible diagnosis of equal probability.
It is using a process of elimination, using further tests and information as necessary, to arrive at a conclusion.
I very widely used method.

Differential diagnosis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What are the alternatives to “differential diagnosis”?
And i know they’ve said it’s a been a process of elimination but surely a way to eliminate an air emoblism is whether or not the patient died? It just doesn’t make sense to diagnose that when a patient has survived imo

 

[I’mThankyou_]

I must have missed what the other nurse said will have to go catch up again now I haven’t a clue what any of what you have said means, so hoping one of the very medically knowledgeable people on here can break it down, so people that like me can understand as it sounds like you’ve found something you think is quite significant here, which will be good to hear

HIE/ Hypoxic-ischaemia happens when there is lack of blood and/or oxygen to the baby during labour & delivery. It can be fatal, and in cases where it isn't, it leaves some pretty devastating long term effects, it can affect all of babies organs and produce the bad blood gases mentioned

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Something I picked up on today sorry don’t know if it has been discussed! But I believe the defence are arguing that child D was very poorly and was never able to breath independently.

However, from the father statement I noticed the prosecution shared this -

t was Father's Day, and I was given a handmade father's Day card.

"The staff had put it together, and it had a message from [Child D] - with a photo stuck inside.

"On the first photo, she has CPAP. I took that with me.

"Later that day, I was given a welcome card, and a photo which showed her looking better, and not on CPAP.

I’m not sure what the relevance to this statement is, could it be to suggest the baby could breath independently ? I’m not medically clued up though so please correct me if I’m wrong. But it stood out to me.

 

[OldBlondie]

HIE/ Hypoxic-ischaemia happens when there is lack of blood and/or oxygen to the baby during labour & delivery. It can be fatal, and in cases where it isn't leave some pretty devastating long term effects, it can affect all of babies organs and produce the bad blood gases mentioned

Thank you very much. It will be interesting to hear then if this is something the defence will push and question/suggest to the medical experts then as possible other cause given what you’ve said in relation to the blood gasses

 

[coffeeandwine]

RE: The lack of Google searches for murder methods - I attribute that to LL being a nurse. Of course she's going to have a pretty clear idea that air or insulin injected into someone could kill them. If it was someone with no medical background it might raise an eyebrow that there's no Google searches but Lucy had studied extensively for her role and would have known what would cause harm and what wouldn't, much more than an ordinary person.

 

[Weeder]

HIE/ Hypoxic-ischaemia happens when there is lack of blood and/or oxygen to the baby during labour & delivery. It can be fatal, and in cases where it isn't leave some pretty devastating long term effects, it can affect all of babies organs and produce the bad blood gases mentioned

Thank you. I have a lot of curiosity around medicine, but I'm not up to date, and will totally bow to superior knowledge (like the good nurse I was). I might be wrong, it just interested me the poor Mum's description of her baby and the seeming lack of action

 

[avabella]

RE: The lack of Google searches for murder methods - I attribute that to LL being a nurse. Of course she's going to have a pretty clear idea that air or insulin injected into someone could kill them. If it was someone with no medical background it might raise an eyebrow that there's no Google searches but Lucy had studied extensively for her role and would have kno

I don't think her Google searches would even have to be something like that to be incriminating. If she searched things like 'how can someone tell you're lying', or 'hospital has lots of babies dying' or Beverly Allitt etc - boom, red flags for me for sure.

 

[OldBlondie]

Something I picked up on today sorry don’t know if it has been discussed! But I believe the defence are arguing that child D was very poorly and was never able to breath independently.

However, from the father statement I noticed the prosecution shared this -

t was Father's Day, and I was given a handmade father's Day card.

"The staff had put it together, and it had a message from [Child D] - with a photo stuck inside.

"On the first photo, she has CPAP. I took that with me.

"Later that day, I was given a welcome card, and a photo which showed her looking better, and not on CPAP.

I’m not sure what the relevance to this statement is, could it be to suggest the baby could breath independently ? I’m not medically clued up though so please correct me if I’m wrong. But it stood out to me.

Me too, seems it was deliberately used by prosecution to suggest baby could breathe independently, albeit only for a short while. Or maybe not actually totally independently, but at least not using cpap. Will be interesting to hear the defence question the medical experts on all of this, and the other theory that has just been explained above. Suggests with this baby they defence are defs going to go down the medical negligence route hard

 

[I’mThankyou_]

Thank you. I have a lot of curiosity around medicine, but I'm not up to date, and will totally bow to superior knowledge (like the good nurse I was). I might be wrong, it just interested me the poor Mum's description of her baby and the seeming lack of action

No, I completely agree with your theory.
Whilst I am in the guilty camp, I think for Baby D with the actions of the hospital at play too this could very well be a NG verdict for this Baby.
Given the failings during labour and post birth I'd definitely say there was possible HIE, something else at play with this little one
Naturally LL may of attributed to their death I assume more information will come tomorrow but I fear it may be caused both by LL & COCH here.

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

What I have to keep reminding myself is that it isn’t one verdict of guilty or not guilty it’s an individual verdict for each charge. So I’m trying to stop thinking about my overall opinion. There are 22 charges - the jury only need to find her guilty of 1 and she will be serving a life sentence

 

[Tofino]

Maybe because the pathologist does't agree with the new cause of death from Dr Evans

nope, this was in the opening statement.

 

[Weeder]

If it was LL , whether in part or wholly, I hope the hospital/doctors and anyone else involved in the chronically bad decision making get as much scrutiny as she did.

 

[slingo16]

RE: The lack of Google searches for murder methods - I attribute that to LL being a nurse. Of course she's going to have a pretty clear idea that air or insulin injected into someone could kill them. If it was someone with no medical background it might raise an eyebrow that there's no Google searches but Lucy had studied extensively for her role and would have known what would cause harm and what wouldn't, much more than an ordinary person.

I didn’t mean a search of how to do it I’m thinking more outside the box things, that see wouldn’t be so sure about like post mortems and things along the line she might not be sure of. Her texts seem to make her seem desperate for reassurance from colleagues and I’m certain she’d have looked for reassurance with the concerns she had that she couldn’t obviously discuss with them, and I think she’d have looked into what could or could not be found in a post mortem or just something weird. I just feel like after the suspicions especially she’d be desperate to make sure she couldn’t be found out.