Lucy Letby Case #13

[Tofino]

Remember from the start of the case it was stated the text messages are agreed evidence - defence were served a copy and were allowed to add any others they felt relevant that prosecution didn’t include. Any messages not included are agreed by both sides not to be relevant to the case.

With regards to these particular messages I think we’ve had similar conversations with each baby so far and I feel like it goes round in circles.

If she’s innocent then obviously there is nothing suspicious about the messages.

If she’s guilty of murder then whilst it might not ‘prove’ she did it, the messages are still manipulative, deflecting and sinister. It’s just adds to the picture of her character and what discussions were being had amongst her and other staff. If future evidence becomes more compelling or she slips up somewhere or her credibility is questioned, messages like these add to that picture.

I also want to add that just because ‘you’ (not directing at anyone in particular, can’t remember who said what) might write something similar to her doesn’t mean she’s innocent and doesn’t mean you would be under suspicion purely on that alone. It’s like me saying I bought some rubble bags from B&Q, I hope nobody suspects me of murder. Doesn’t mean Wayne Couzens is innocent because he bought some too.

 

[OldBlondie]

I think aswell with the counselling, back in 2016, mental health wasn’t spoken about, like at all. Especially not like it is now. There was little to no awareness for it. When we were in the Nicu at the same time (diff area), I was offered it loads of times and everytime I literally said ‘oh my god no way’, because I thought it made me look crazy (I know awful). It’s only been the past couple of years or so, I have been able to speak properly and understand I have PTSD from those long months in there seeing my baby go through so much. And I did sink into depression. I am absolutely not defending her (because I think she’s evil), but I just thought I’d put another perspective in.
I also talk about 2016 like it was a million years ago I know it wasn’t, it does show how far we havecome regarding mental health though

I’m so sorry to hear this, I hope you’re in a different place mentally now, and able to talk about it, and it’s good you recognise the ptsd cos that doesn’t always happen straight away which means not dealing with it at that time. Yes mental health has certainly changed a lot, even from 2016 and there isn’t as much stigma around it. The way we all deal with things is totally different, as I said I’d never knock anyones way of coping with stuff. Thank you for your perspective, guess I’d not even thought about how far mental health has come since then

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

she’s definitely a narc, you’ve explained it perfectly.

I’ve voted 'unsure' this time purely from reading the tweets from merseyhack. It seems this mother was severely let down with her birth and her instincts were spot on that her baby should have been delivered earlier and she was unwell.

I don’t care whether LL was at work or not, there’s reasonable doubt for me with Baby D.

Another thought occurred to me In that we can either believe the unit was failing or that there is a serial killer at work in the unit, but the chances of both must be incredibly slim.

From what we are reading it’s obvious the unit had crap care so…?

My birth was ok in terms of care. I didn’t get the water birth I wanted and I pushed longer than I should have. My ears were ringing the next day and I have tinnitus, menieres and hyperacusis now, all stemming from then on. I think from pushing too long but that’s another story.

the worst bit for me was being on the ward afterwards. there just wasn’t enough nurses, especially at night. I was warned by a friend about one of the night nurses who was a cowbag, and sure enough I got her

my son was jaundiced and on one of those light beds, one night that nurse bullied me all night. Ordering me to breastfeed, pushing my sons face into my boob so his nose was covered and he couldn’t breathe. When I got on the bed she freaked out because I put my slippered feet on the bed and went on and on about ‘contamination'. then she claimed as I was 'starving' my son. About 5am I broke down and told her I was calling my husband to come and get me. She snapped he wouldn’t get in so I snapped back ‘I’ll let him in the bleeping fire escape' well she went off and another young nurse looked after me from then on encouraging me to put a complaint in about her because this nurse was bullying all the younger nurses too.

In the end I didn’t need to as such, when the day nurses arrived they took one look at my swollen face from crying all night and there was a right to do. The head of somewhere came down apologising profusely to me, the bullying nurse got a warning and had to go on another breastfeeding course as well as some other sanction I can’t remember. But the damage was done. I stopped breastfeeding because I didn’t have the confidence anymore and just wanted to get out of there.

I remember being desperate from my hubby to arrive to sort everything out because I was exhausted and wanted to go home. I’d called him and told him what went on and when he came literally running round the bed I felt happier until he got to me and said 'Have you seen the news? STEVE IRWIN'S DEAD….. DEAD!!!!! KILLED BY A STINGRAY'!!'

bleeping husband of mine. I’ve never let him forget it.

I'm so sorry, there really are some cu*ts who are only in the nursing profession so they can bully the vulnerable hope the cow got the boot eventually!!

 

[MmmB777]

Hi! New to this thread but have been following the LL case from afar.

Thought I'd chime in on the LL shutting down counselling thing: I work in a mental health unit. Obviously you see some horrific things there sometimes and, while I've never taken it up, we do have counsellors we can contact and the psychologists also do sessions with the wards where incidents can be discussed. Again, I've never used the counselling but it's there and I would use it in a heartbeat if I felt I needed it.

LL turning it down in isolation isn't unusual to me. Lots of people prefer to carry on, suppress their feelings or talk to someone they know (a colleague, partner, friend, parent - whoever). She may have been one of them. However, when paired with the other stuff, I can see why it raises red flags: in her texts she's clearly putting across how vividly affected she is by what's happened, but when it comes to the professionals she either doesn't want to engage (like with a counsellor) or is suddenly very vague in her recollections (like the police interviews). The two don't add up. Someone who is searching for the families on Facebook months later suddenly acting like she doesn't remember details of the shift, her thoughts or feelings when questioned by police just screams covering her tracks to me. Whereas on its own, not wanting to talk to a counsellor would just be one person's way of dealing with things. Hope that makes sense!

Yes yes yes and then if you then combine that with the fact that the collapses come after intervention from her! Why not at another time?? They come directly after her interventions. She can’t remember parents grief but remembers their first and second names to search them as much as a year later ‍ nah.

 

[OldBlondie]

Hi! New to this thread but have been following the LL case from afar.

Thought I'd chime in on the LL shutting down counselling thing: I work in a mental health unit. Obviously you see some horrific things there sometimes and, while I've never taken it up, we do have counsellors we can contact and the psychologists also do sessions with the wards where incidents can be discussed. Again, I've never used the counselling but it's there and I would use it in a heartbeat if I felt I needed it.

LL turning it down in isolation isn't unusual to me. Lots of people prefer to carry on, suppress their feelings or talk to someone they know (a colleague, partner, friend, parent - whoever). She may have been one of them. However, when paired with the other stuff, I can see why it raises red flags: in her texts she's clearly putting across how vividly affected she is by what's happened, but when it comes to the professionals she either doesn't want to engage (like with a counsellor) or is suddenly very vague in her recollections (like the police interviews). The two don't add up. Someone who is searching for the families on Facebook months later suddenly acting like she doesn't remember details of the shift, her thoughts or feelings when questioned by police just screams covering her tracks to me. Whereas on its own, not wanting to talk to a counsellor would just be one person's way of dealing with things. Hope that makes sense!

Perfect sense, thank you so much for posting. Think this also is what some of us have been trying to say and you’ve put it together perfectly

 

[slingo16]

given child a, b and d all were attacked using the same method it seems they all had very different out comes. It’ll be interesting to hear from medical experts about child d and see if there are any consistent symptoms.
“air embolus” hasn’t been proven in any case so far, it’s more it cannot be ruled out which proves zero imo, in the study that was mentioned in court about air embolus it said a CT scan can effectively diagnose if, so I’d imagine that’s how you’d rule it out too, hopefully they have something clear in terms of the cause this time maybe given this was the 3rd child that month to “unexpectedly” crash and die you’d think they’d have started to take greater precautions after death and look into things a lot deeper in an attempt to find some answers. so hopefully they will have ct scans this time

 

[OldBlondie]

Remember from the start of the case it was stated the text messages are agreed evidence - defence were served a copy and were allowed to add any others they felt relevant that prosecution didn’t include. Any messages not included are agreed by both sides not to be relevant to the case.

With regards to these particular messages I think we’ve had similar conversations with each baby so far and I feel like it goes round in circles.

If she’s innocent then obviously there is nothing suspicious about the messages.

If she’s guilty of murder then whilst it might not ‘prove’ she did it, the messages are still manipulative, deflecting and sinister. It’s just adds to the picture of her character and what discussions were being had amongst her and other staff. If future evidence becomes more compelling or she slips up somewhere or her credibility is questioned, messages like these add to that picture.

I also want to add that just because ‘you’ (not directing at anyone in particular, can’t remember who said what) might write something similar to her doesn’t mean she’s innocent and doesn’t mean you would be under suspicion purely on that alone. It’s like me saying I bought some rubble bags from B&Q, I hope nobody suspects me of murder. Doesn’t mean Wayne Couzens is innocent because he bought some too.

Also thank you for posting this, think this is what a lot of us (going round in circles) have thought, you also have put it together perfectly for me, clear and concise. I think some of the going round and round in circles, and times when people have slightly heated disagreements, is down to some days not hearing so much evidence. I’ve noticed when we aren’t really hearing anything new we tend to just go over the same things again and again, and some disagreements then arise from this. When there’s loads of evidence coming from court there’s far more to discuss, and people seem to move on quicker. I think the last few days we haven’t heard that much new stuff, with court ending early, no live reporting yesterday and adjournments etc. I’m hoping we will hear loads of new evidence tomorrow to keep us going over the weekend, but I have a feeling of doom that we aren’t really going to hear too much new stuff until next week

 

[Haveyouanywool]

On another note.
Watching Cause of Death last night, the Coroner could refer a case to the police and they would then have to investigate.
Babies A (unascertained) and C (natural) went to the Coroner after PM.
If only things could have been stopped at this stage.
If I was one of the Consultants I’d now be raging that it wasn’t.

 

[candyland_]

Baby A collapsed within 10 minutes of her giving fluids.

Baby B collapsed within 15 minutes of her taking blood gases.

Baby C collapsed while the nurse popped out of the room for a ‘very short time’ and came back to baby collapsed with Letby alone.

Baby D collapsed at 1:30am five minutes after being administered saline by Letby. Baby then collapsed again at 3am after she was given sodium chloride dose with 10% dextrose at 2:40am. At 3:20am baby is prescribed further medication by Letby and collapses for the final time at 3:45.

It’s every time she has been involved with them.

 

[MmmB777]

Baby A collapsed within 10 minutes of her giving fluids.

Baby B collapsed within 15 minutes of her taking blood gases.

Baby C collapsed while the nurse popped out of the room for a ‘very short time’ and came back to baby collapsed with Letby alone.

Baby D collapsed at 1:30am five minutes after being administered saline by Letby. Baby then collapsed again at 3am after she was given sodium chloride dose with 10% dextrose at 2:40am. At 3:20am baby is prescribed further medication by Letby and collapses for the final time at 3:45.

It’s every time she has been involved with them.

Yes. There’s the biggest similarity right there. Xx

 

[od12839]

So then they’ve looked at the common denominator in all these unexpected, unnatural deaths & thats LL. I can’t seem to get passed this right now & that’s without throwing in her behaviour with parents/texts/searches/the note hence why I’m still in the guilty camp

So I mentioned something about this in a previous thread; it's really weird to think the text messages, search history and documents in her house will have been found AFTER she was declared a suspect.

Like...imagine the police investigate and they find that there's 2 nurses who were present at every collapse. Lucy Letby and Nurse B. Do you reckon they'd find documents in Nurse B's house? And text messages about going out of her way to look after those kids? And facebook searches for the families? Probably not....because it's a pretty specific/odd profile that I can't imagine many of the nurses fit. When I think about it that way I find it so hard to imagine Lucy just happened to be present at all these deaths, and also happened to partake in so much oddly suspicious behaviour, completely by accident.

On the other hand the text messages about being upset read pretty genuine to me. They're a bit self-focused but so are most people when they're upset. I don't want to believe someone could just put on an act like this, it's horrible.

 

[MmmB777]

So I mentioned something about this in a previous thread; it's really weird to think the text messages, search history and documents in her house will have been found AFTER she was declared a suspect.

Like...imagine the police investigate and they find that there's 2 nurses who were present at every collapse. Lucy Letby and Nurse B. Do you reckon they'd find documents in Nurse B's house? And text messages about going out of her way to look after those kids? And facebook searches for the families? Probably not....because it's a pretty specific/odd profile that I can't imagine many of the nurses fit. When I think about it that way I find it so hard to imagine Lucy just happened to be present at all these deaths, and also happened to partake in so much oddly suspicious behaviour, completely by accident.

On the other hand the text messages about being upset read pretty genuine to me. They're a bit self-focused but so are most people when they're upset. I don't want to believe someone could just put on an act like this, it's horrible.

Oh wow that is a new take and I am all over it. So so true.

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

Feels an appropriate time to share the pencil analogy posted by another user back in an early thread. I've screenshot it as she put it so well (apologies if that's not the right Tattle etiquette, I couldn't work out how else to share it) and it made me think about all those little things that didn't add up but also didn't seem significant enough to find her guilty.

 

[Tofino]

Slightly OT but David Fuller has pleaded guilty to more charges today. That’s 101 confirmed deceased victims (very likely more) that he sexually abused and/or penetrated in the mortuary. If a human being is capable of such a sick act then a human being is capable of anything. I think that’s why I don’t really get too caught up in the not wanting to believe she could have done this. I’ve already accepted humans are capable of such horrors. Nurses and doctors have deliberately harmed or killed patients including children and babies before. Parents kill their own babies ‘all the time’. (As in, it feels like there are regular news reports about it happening). As horrific and sick as it may be, I can very sadly believe a human being would do this to neonatal babies too.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

Baby A collapsed within 10 minutes of her giving fluids.

Baby B collapsed within 15 minutes of her taking blood gases.

Baby C collapsed while the nurse popped out of the room for a ‘very short time’ and came back to baby collapsed with Letby alone.

Baby D collapsed at 1:30am five minutes after being administered saline by Letby. Baby then collapsed again at 3am after she was given sodium chloride dose with 10% dextrose at 2:40am. At 3:20am baby is prescribed further medication by Letby and collapses for the final time at 3:45.

It’s every time she has been involved with them.

It’s she signed for it not that she necessarily gave it though? And the last one for baby D says
‘At 3.20am, a further neonatal infusion prescription is made, with Lucy Letby being one of the signatories.

At 3.45am, Child D collapses for the third and final time.

The nursing note recalled the alarm went off and Child D 'desaturated and then became apneoic. Called Letby...' Resuscitation efforts began but to 'no effect'.’

Which makes me think the other nurse gave it and that Lucy signed for it as the other nurse called her at the time of the final crash?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

given child a, b and d all were attacked using the same method it seems they all had very different out comes. It’ll be interesting to hear from medical experts about child d and see if there are any consistent symptoms.
“air embolus” hasn’t been proven in any case so far, it’s more it cannot be ruled out which proves zero imo, in the study that was mentioned in court about air embolus it said a CT scan can effectively diagnose if, so I’d imagine that’s how you’d rule it out too, hopefully they have something clear in terms of the cause this time maybe given this was the 3rd child that month to “unexpectedly” crash and die you’d think they’d have started to take greater precautions after death and look into things a lot deeper in an attempt to find some answers. so hopefully they will have ct scans this time

Baby D was attacked 3 times.
You’re really oversimplify saying a CT scan can diagnosis it.
Babies A and C were sent to the Coroner.

 

[OldBlondie]

So I mentioned something about this in a previous thread; it's really weird to think the text messages, search history and documents in her house will have been found AFTER she was declared a suspect.

Like...imagine the police investigate and they find that there's 2 nurses who were present at every collapse. Lucy Letby and Nurse B. Do you reckon they'd find documents in Nurse B's house? And text messages about going out of her way to look after those kids? And facebook searches for the families? Probably not....because it's a pretty specific/odd profile that I can't imagine many of the nurses fit. When I think about it that way I find it so hard to imagine Lucy just happened to be present at all these deaths, and also happened to partake in so much oddly suspicious behaviour, completely by accident.

On the other hand the text messages about being upset read pretty genuine to me. They're a bit self-focused but so are most people when they're upset. I don't want to believe someone could just put on an act like this, it's horrible.

This is brilliant, people are explaining things tonight so well. Worlds unluckiest nurse, or guilty

Feels an appropriate time to share the pencil analogy posted by another user back in an early thread. I've screenshot it as she put it so well (apologies if that's not the right Tattle etiquette, I couldn't work out how else to share it) and it made me think about all those little things that didn't add up but also didn't seem significant enough to find her guilty.
View attachment 1701984

Excellent, I’d heard of the pencil theory before, but never actually seen it explained. I’d say the prosecution are going for the pencil theory, it makes so much sense on circumstantial evidence. Thank you for sharing

 

[Aberscot]

i totally get the unit wasn’t up to standard and could potentially be the cause of the babies deaths, however one thing that’s been said by the Dr too is it’s uncommon for babies that are doing ok ( stable not getting worse] to suddenly crash and die, generally they deteriate for example infection gets worse so there stats would show this. Given the amount of babies that suddenly passed it’s very suspicious and is it coincidence or bad luck that Lucy was present in each case we have heard so far.
I am also confused why her colleague said about counselling, was it because Lucy was showing more signs of stress and not coping than her colleagues as surely they would all have issues as the deaths must have effected all the staff given the amount of them

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

Slightly OT but David Fuller has pleaded guilty to more charges today.

Now HE'S not a nice fella!

 

[helcob1977]

yeah, i think i agree with you although wasn’t sure whether it’s just my own social ineptness that’s making things difficult it surely all comes down to context doesn’t it - if she wasnt on trial for murder then we’d probably either think nothing of it or just think she’s a bit wet, looking for a pity party etc? honestly don’t know because i actually can see where some posters are coming from but i don’t think the messages themselves are damning really.

suppose it’s the same as when people comment on her looks and how that can give us an unconscious bias. something like the bottom of her face isn’t as innocent looking as the top half? if anything it’s given me a bit of a complex cos im no oil painting myself so dread to think what would happen if i was ever up at court

Haha, I reckon if it was my photo up there the whole nation would have me pinned as guilty..I'm getting quite a complex about it too don't even get me started on my Google searches....I was googling serial killers last night on the back of reading about Beverley Allit and I was thinking if I was under suspicion for anything that would seal the deal