Lucy Letby Case #13

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Thanks for trying to explain. I think it's hard to analyse the texts because they're purely in the context of issues relating to the case. There's no previous chat of the conversation between them. It's not clear if this was an out of the blue message from LL to the colleague, or a response to a question asked of her?

Also I've been in tricky situations and it's been suggested contacting Occupational Health etc, and I've always brushed it off. Sometimes just having a moan to my colleague has helped get thoughts out of my head - but now I'm paranoid I'll be seen as manipulative


For context, I work in a high pressure, sometimes very volatile setting. There's lots of political red tape and procedures to follow, not unlike medicine I guess. Lots of people in my life have said they 'don't know how I do it' and why don't I just find a new job etc etc. But even when I"ve been absolutely on my knees with work, I've never considered leaving. I moan about it, I cry about it, it despairs me sometimes, but I love it. Sometimes I moan in texts how hard it is, sometimes I celebrate the small wins. I guess we're only seeing one side of the texts and that could be why it feels off?

I appreciate you see things very different to me.
At the end of the day, these texts aren't much stand alone (although I still clearly read the manipulation in them on their own, I appreciate you just see a work colleague venting) but it is only in conjunction with everything else they come across more sinister.

 

[avabella]

I've been thinking about this case a lot and I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a complete mental block on this actually having happened. It seems so incredibly horrific to potentially admit that all of these babies were deliberately harmed, so maybe my brain has a protective mechanism to block any belief in it?

That being said, I'm also hearing the standards of care and am horrified. I'm drawing from experience in my own sector where tolerance levels and thresholds can change based on what you're dealing with (i.e. what I class as 'violent' is definitely not what the general public would class as violent, because my tolerance is so much higher because I deal with it constantly). So to hear the staff saying things weren't 'expected' I wonder if their tolerance has gotten so high because of staff shortages etc that actually, unless a baby was presenting completely off the scale, they 'brush it off' as doing well?

It still bothers me about how many other collapses/deaths happened when she wasn't there. On one part of the transcript today it said they gave medication and the baby collapsed for the 3rd time, and they called LL in. Which is confusing as it reads that she didn't give the medication?

My head is well and truly burst.

 

[MmmB777]

Nah these texts seem totally normal to me and similar to what I'd send or receive from colleagues. I'm pretty sure it's bias which is fine, we're only human. Look at when those first few texts were shared and the reporting got the nurses the wrong way round, when people thought letby sent the texts as originally reported, she was calculated and cold, and then when it corrected the same was said about the other texts

Oo I totally forgot to check this.. do you know which specific texts were the wrong way round? I know this happened but I don’t recall which were changed in the end. If you can tell me that would be fab x

 

[Daisydunn15]

Oo I totally forgot to check this.. do you know which specific texts were the wrong way round? I know this happened but I don’t recall which were changed in the end. If you can tell me that would be fab x

It was the ones where they were saying they died under different circumstances, listed the ways they died and said 'were they that different' then 'ignore me I'm speculating'. I don't remember which is the correct way now but both ways people thought the ones attributed to LL were v suspicious.

 

[OldBlondie]

I've been thinking about this case a lot and I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a complete mental block on this actually having happened. It seems so incredibly horrific to potentially admit that all of these babies were deliberately harmed, so maybe my brain has a protective mechanism to block any belief in it?

That being said, I'm also hearing the standards of care and am horrified. I'm drawing from experience in my own sector where tolerance levels and thresholds can change based on what you're dealing with (i.e. what I class as 'violent' is definitely not what the general public would class as violent, because my tolerance is so much higher because I deal with it constantly). So to hear the staff saying things weren't 'expected' I wonder if their tolerance has gotten so high because of staff shortages etc that actually, unless a baby was presenting completely off the scale, they 'brush it off' as doing well?

It still bothers me about how many other collapses/deaths happened when she wasn't there. On one part of the transcript today it said they gave medication and the baby collapsed for the 3rd time, and they called LL in. Which is confusing as it reads that she didn't give the medication?

My head is well and truly burst.

I think she signed for the medication suggestions she’d been in with the baby just before each collapse, but not necessarily still in there at time of 3rd collapse. I’ve wondered if some people think NG cos they can’t bear the reality that she’s actually done this, like it’s too horrific to think it. Can I ask, and this is in general, and not specific to you, but some of the people that have voted NG, do you genuinely believe she’s completely innocent? Or do you feel you just haven’t heard enough evidence at this point to fully convince you of her guilt? If no one wants to answer that fully understand

 

[MmmB777]

It was the ones where they were saying they died under different circumstances, listed the ways they died and said 'were they that different' then 'ignore me I'm speculating'. I don't remember which is the correct way now but both ways people thought the ones attributed to LL were v suspicious.

Oh really! So when I saw it, Letby said they died in different ways and did the list and the colleague said were they that different and the ignore me I’m speculating part. That’s interesting. I will have to search the wiki!

 

[OldBlondie]

It was the ones where they were saying they died under different circumstances, listed the ways they died and said 'were they that different' then 'ignore me I'm speculating'. I don't remember which is the correct way now but both ways people thought the ones attributed to LL were v suspicious.

I’m pretty sure it was confirmed the colleague said it was odd, LL said different circumstances and listed them, then the colleague said ignore me. But there definitely were some texts that were wrong way round. Will try find correct version

 

[friedeggontoast]

I think she signed for the medication suggestions she’d been in with the baby just before each collapse, but not necessarily still in there at time if 3rd collapse. I’ve wondered if some people think NG cos she can’t bear the reality that she’s actually done this, like it’s horrific to think it. Can I ask, and this is in general, and not specific to you, but some of the people that have voted NG, do you genuinely believe she’s completely innocent? Or do you feel you just haven’t heard enough evidence at this point to fully convince you of her guilt? If no one wants to answer that fully understand

Yeah I was thinking similar actually. To those think she is not guilty, is that because you don’t think she’s guilty beyond reasonable doubt or genuinely fully innocent?

 

[starshine89]

I've been thinking about this case a lot and I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a complete mental block on this actually having happened. It seems so incredibly horrific to potentially admit that all of these babies were deliberately harmed, so maybe my brain has a protective mechanism to block any belief in it?

That being said, I'm also hearing the standards of care and am horrified. I'm drawing from experience in my own sector where tolerance levels and thresholds can change based on what you're dealing with (i.e. what I class as 'violent' is definitely not what the general public would class as violent, because my tolerance is so much higher because I deal with it constantly). So to hear the staff saying things weren't 'expected' I wonder if their tolerance has gotten so high because of staff shortages etc that actually, unless a baby was presenting completely off the scale, they 'brush it off' as doing well?

It still bothers me about how many other collapses/deaths happened when she wasn't there. On one part of the transcript today it said they gave medication and the baby collapsed for the 3rd time, and they called LL in. Which is confusing as it reads that she didn't give the medication?

My head is well and truly burst.

I wonder if she was the second checker for the medication, or whether she actually administered the medication??

Baby D sounds sick at both previous collapses so it suprises me the third and fatal collapse is so shocking?

I think I’m the same as you I can’t get my head around her actually doing it I always seem to sway towards reasons other than it being LL

 

[OldBlondie]

Oh really! So when I saw it, Letby said they died in different ways and did the list and the colleague said were they that different and the ignore me I’m speculating part. That’s interesting. I will have to search the wiki!

Yes it was that way round, check the wiki but it was the colleague that said about it being odd, then LL saying different ways and listing them, then the colleague saying ignore me I’m speculating. But there deffo were some texts that had to be clarified by the analyst as they were the wrong way round

 

[avabella]

I think she signed for the medication suggestions she’d been in with the baby just before each collapse, but not necessarily still in there at time if 3rd collapse. I’ve wondered if some people think NG cos she can’t bear the reality that she’s actually done this, like it’s horrific to think it. Can I ask, and this is in general, and not specific to you, but some of the people that have voted NG, do you genuinely believe she’s completely innocent? Or do you feel you just haven’t heard enough evidence at this point to fully convince you of her guilt? If no one wants to answer that fully understand

I'm on the fence. Logically, 'statistically', I can see that it doesn't look good. On the flip side, I can't understand the why and the how? Why would she do what she is accused of, and how could she live an otherwise seemingly normal life? Add to that what seems like a total shambles of a unit and it leaves me with doubts.

 

[OldBlondie]

Yeah I was thinking similar actually. To those think she is not guilty, is that because you don’t think she’s guilty beyond reasonable doubt or genuinely fully innocent?

Yes this is what I’d like to know, is it not enough compelling evidence yet, or just genuinely think she’s completely innocent. Just curious, not saying anyone is wrong or right or anything like that, I just like hearing what others think and why

I'm on the fence. Logically, 'statistically', I can see that it doesn't look good. On the flip side, I can't understand the why and the how? Why would she do what she is accused of, and how could she live an otherwise seemingly normal life? Add to that what seems like a total shambles of a unit and it leaves me with doubts.

Yes and I think doubts are completely understandable, even though I think she’s completely guilty I don’t believe we’ve heard enough that would allow any of us to convict her for life yet. Just curious if anyone believes she’s completely not guilty and deffo didn’t think she’s done it, rather than just having doubts/not enough evidence. It’s interesting cos all the defence have to do is convince just one person to have doubts, (if it’s not going to majority verdict that is)

I think I’m the same as you I can’t get my head around her actually doing it I always seem to sway towards reasons other than it being LL

This is what I was wondering, can some people just not bear the thought she did it, so will accept lots of other reasons for what happened, rather than it being her. If she did this it’s beyond evil, worst female serial killer ever etc, so completely understandable why people don’t want/can’t believe it’s her

 

[IGiveUp22]

I know many of us are struggling to understand the collapses being shocking even after we’re hearing the evidence as it does sound like some of these babies are quite poorly. But even LL confirms in her texts that they’re unexpected. Every single medical expert that we’ve heard from at this point have all said these babies should have survived & they can’t explain it. Where I’m at right now is that ALL these people can’t be wrong?? Including the suspect herself??
So then we have the experts who have looked at all the babies who passed during this time period & all concluded these babies deaths were unnatural (likely others as natural)
So then they’ve looked at the common denominator in all these unexpected, unnatural deaths & thats LL. I can’t seem to get passed this right now & that’s without throwing in her behaviour with parents/texts/searches/the note hence why I’m still in the guilty camp

 

[Tangerine Cat]

Okay, I am going to try and explain why I think Letby’s messages to her colleagues were off.

She starts off saying how awful work has been. How the deaths have really hit her now she has been off work a few days. As soon as the colleague offers a realistic solution such as the counsellor Letby shuts it down immediately. She doesn't want to hear about the steps she needs to take to deal with her issues, she just wants her colleague to be sorry for her. When her colleague asks her the very reasonable question of WHY she won't go to a counsellor if its affecting her as bad as she's making out to be Letby quickly plays victim and goes "I can’t talk about it, I can't stop crying".

To me that is incredibly manipulative and also totally not true because she brought all of this up with her colleague. She just didn't get the answer she was looking for from her colleague.

When her colleague makes the next perfectly reasonable suggestion of taking time off Letby once again goes full victim and martyr by saying no "work is always my priority" and says she hasn't been crying about it until today.

To me that is, again totally manipulative, once she realised she wasn't getting any more sympathy from her colleague she totally back tracks and makes out likes it's not an issue.

I find it interesting also that she sends this message after she's been off a few days, is she bored at home, is she missing the drama and these texts are just her way of looking for attention but they didn't go to plan and her colleague told her straight what she needs to do rather than pander to her?View attachment 1701719

she’s definitely a narc, you’ve explained it perfectly.

I’ve voted 'unsure' this time purely from reading the tweets from merseyhack. It seems this mother was severely let down with her birth and her instincts were spot on that her baby should have been delivered earlier and she was unwell.

I don’t care whether LL was at work or not, there’s reasonable doubt for me with Baby D.

Another thought occurred to me In that we can either believe the unit was failing or that there is a serial killer at work in the unit, but the chances of both must be incredibly slim.

From what we are reading it’s obvious the unit had crap care so…?

My birth was ok in terms of care. I didn’t get the water birth I wanted and I pushed longer than I should have. My ears were ringing the next day and I have tinnitus, menieres and hyperacusis now, all stemming from then on. I think from pushing too long but that’s another story.

the worst bit for me was being on the ward afterwards. there just wasn’t enough nurses, especially at night. I was warned by a friend about one of the night nurses who was a cowbag, and sure enough I got her

my son was jaundiced and on one of those light beds, one night that nurse bullied me all night. Ordering me to breastfeed, pushing my sons face into my boob so his nose was covered and he couldn’t breathe. When I got on the bed she freaked out because I put my slippered feet on the bed and went on and on about ‘contamination'. then she claimed as I was 'starving' my son. About 5am I broke down and told her I was calling my husband to come and get me. She snapped he wouldn’t get in so I snapped back ‘I’ll let him in the bleeping fire escape' well she went off and another young nurse looked after me from then on encouraging me to put a complaint in about her because this nurse was bullying all the younger nurses too.

In the end I didn’t need to as such, when the day nurses arrived they took one look at my swollen face from crying all night and there was a right to do. The head of somewhere came down apologising profusely to me, the bullying nurse got a warning and had to go on another breastfeeding course as well as some other sanction I can’t remember. But the damage was done. I stopped breastfeeding because I didn’t have the confidence anymore and just wanted to get out of there.

I remember being desperate from my hubby to arrive to sort everything out because I was exhausted and wanted to go home. I’d called him and told him what went on and when he came literally running round the bed I felt happier until he got to me and said 'Have you seen the news? STEVE IRWIN'S DEAD….. DEAD!!!!! KILLED BY A STINGRAY'!!'

bleeping husband of mine. I’ve never let him forget it.

 

[Daisydunn15]

Oh really! So when I saw it, Letby said they died in different ways and did the list and the colleague said were they that different and the ignore me I’m speculating part. That’s interesting. I will have to search the wiki!

I think the reporting still says different things depending on what you read so it's not clear who sent what. Personally I don't fine either side of the conversation to ring any alarm bells so I don't suppose it matters to me who said what but I know for some it's strengthened their opinion of her and it was interesting to see people stand by that even when we found that the messages may be the wrong way round.

 

[OldBlondie]

I know many of us are struggling to understand the collapses being shocking even after we’re hearing the evidence as it does sound like some of these babies are quite poorly. But even LL confirms in her texts that they’re unexpected. Every single medical expert that we’ve heard from at this point have all said these babies should have survived & they can’t explain it. Where I’m at right now is that ALL these people can’t be wrong?? Including the suspect herself??
So then we have the experts who have looked at all the babies who passed during this time period & all concluded these babies deaths were unnatural (likely others as natural)
So then they’ve looked at the common denominator in all these unexpected, unnatural deaths & thats LL. I can’t seem to get passed this right now & that’s without throwing in her behaviour with parents/texts/searches/the note hence why I’m still in the guilty camp

This all of this, think few of us trying to say this but I know I didn’t explain it very well. If the collapses/deaths were negligence or shambles of a unit why didn’t it show in the PMs that were done, and why are so many saying it’s unexpected and can’t be explained. You’ve hit the nail on the head

 

[starshine89]

I know many of us are struggling to understand the collapses being shocking even after we’re hearing the evidence as it does sound like some of these babies are quite poorly. But even LL confirms in her texts that they’re unexpected. Every single medical expert that we’ve heard from at this point have all said these babies should have survived & they can’t explain it. Where I’m at right now is that ALL these people can’t be wrong?? Including the suspect herself??
So then we have the experts who have looked at all the babies who passed during this time period & all concluded these babies deaths were unnatural (likely others as natural)
So then they’ve looked at the common denominator in all these unexpected, unnatural deaths & thats LL. I can’t seem to get passed this right now & that’s without throwing in her behaviour with parents/texts/searches/the note hence why I’m still in the guilty camp

The reason I’m in the unsure camp is because I totally get that the babies were expected to survive and that despite their prematurity etc they should have still lived, but my doubts creep in because I don’t think the care was very good at all and therefore some of the collapses could have been prevented with better care if that makes sense. Like baby D arrived in NICU with shocking gases very unwell due to what appears to be delay in transferring her there, even parents say how unwell she seemed

But as I just said I think I’m also looking for reasons as I can’t fathom someone could have done this on purpose

 

[aalmaalm]

You are right, although the prosecution did make it clear it was a very difficult case. So I don’t think a lot of it is as clear cut as we would like it to be. Which is why I think a lot is ultimately going to be down to what the jury’s interpretation will be of the evidence. I think there’s still so much to hear yet too, so I prob shouldn’t, at this point, be set on guilty. Although with not being on jury I think it’s ok for us to be convinced one way or another if we want


Oh sorry I thought you had a poll on it like this one. Was there any general consensus one way or another when discussing, or was there lots of people in both camps like on here? Did you notice anyone went from guilty to NG once defence properly started? Sorry for so many questions but I’m really curious about whether a lot of people change their mind once defence starts (I know obvs some will, but I mean more in general)


Sorry I was one of those posters, and I think the same as you, nothing wrong with not wanting to go to counselling, it’s a personal decision, and not strange in itself, it just feels strange in the overall context/picture of LL. Apologies if it came across as anything other than that. I know people have different experiences, and also deal with them differently, and I wouldn’t ever knock anyones personal approach to how they deal with it

I think aswell with the counselling, back in 2016, mental health wasn’t spoken about, like at all. Especially not like it is now. There was little to no awareness for it. When we were in the Nicu at the same time (diff area), I was offered it loads of times and everytime I literally said ‘oh my god no way’, because I thought it made me look crazy (I know awful). It’s only been the past couple of years or so, I have been able to speak properly and understand I have PTSD from those long months in there seeing my baby go through so much. And I did sink into depression. I am absolutely not defending her (because I think she’s evil), but I just thought I’d put another perspective in.
I also talk about 2016 like it was a million years ago I know it wasn’t, it does show how far we havecome regarding mental health though

 

[coffeeandwine]

Hi! New to this thread but have been following the LL case from afar.

Thought I'd chime in on the LL shutting down counselling thing: I work in a mental health unit. Obviously you see some horrific things there sometimes and, while I've never taken it up, we do have counsellors we can contact and the psychologists also do sessions with the wards where incidents can be discussed. Again, I've never used the counselling but it's there and I would use it in a heartbeat if I felt I needed it.

LL turning it down in isolation isn't unusual to me. Lots of people prefer to carry on, suppress their feelings or talk to someone they know (a colleague, partner, friend, parent - whoever). She may have been one of them. However, when paired with the other stuff, I can see why it raises red flags: in her texts she's clearly putting across how vividly affected she is by what's happened, but when it comes to the professionals she either doesn't want to engage (like with a counsellor) or is suddenly very vague in her recollections (like the police interviews). The two don't add up. Someone who is searching for the families on Facebook months later suddenly acting like she doesn't remember details of the shift, her thoughts or feelings when questioned by police just screams covering her tracks to me. Whereas on its own, not wanting to talk to a counsellor would just be one person's way of dealing with things. Hope that makes sense!

 

[OldBlondie]

The reason I’m in the unsure camp is because I totally get that the babies were expected to survive and that despite their prematurity etc they should have still lived, but my doubts creep in because I don’t think the care was very good at all and therefore some of the collapses could have been prevented with better care if they makes sense. Like baby D arrived in NICU with shocking gases very unwell due to what appears to be delay in transferring her there, even parents say how unwell she seemed

But as I just said I think I’m also looking for reasons as I can’t fathom someone could have done this on purpose

I guess a lot in the not sure camp need to hear some more evidence that will either sway them to guilty, or sway them to NG. At least if in the not sure camp, you can look at stuff with maybe a slightly more open mind (I know I have some bias with being firmly in the guilty camp)