There have been shortages for years (although seems so far they made their ratios?), how is the defence going to account for the specific time frame rather than it being a protracted issue? Will they compare to similarly staffed units across the country? I understand there were a higher than usual level of collapses and deaths not all of which are included in the trial, but it seems like a weak defence?
- Status
New to Tattle Life? Click "Order Thread by Most Liked Posts" button below to get an idea of what the site is about:
Dr Gibbs certainly appears confident in his replies.
I'm not following closely, but I'd be interested to see the overall numbers of deaths/crashes over a period of time, compared to the time being looked at in this trial when LL was involved.
I imagine it's a very hard, high pressure environment to work in with lots of things happening all the time (and sadly an environment where death isn't as uncommon as we'd like) and when you're in it it can be difficult to identify a pattern. I'm sure the data exists and has been looked at by the police and will (or already has) come up in court, just the analytical mind in me is curious.
LL certainly seems an odd character, in a way I'm struggling to articulate. I feel like we've probably all met someone a bit like her who comes off as sort of... socially inept and without much of a filter, but enthusiastic, and you just think they're a bit odd and maybe annoying but you assume they're harmless, especially young women.
It's all really just unimaginable though. I can't comprehend the sort of mind who would see a tiny baby and not want to do everything they can to protect it. I can't really talk about this with my friends as they're all pregnant or new mums and I don't want to stress them out!
I imagine it's a very hard, high pressure environment to work in with lots of things happening all the time (and sadly an environment where death isn't as uncommon as we'd like) and when you're in it it can be difficult to identify a pattern. I'm sure the data exists and has been looked at by the police and will (or already has) come up in court, just the analytical mind in me is curious.
LL certainly seems an odd character, in a way I'm struggling to articulate. I feel like we've probably all met someone a bit like her who comes off as sort of... socially inept and without much of a filter, but enthusiastic, and you just think they're a bit odd and maybe annoying but you assume they're harmless, especially young women.
It's all really just unimaginable though. I can't comprehend the sort of mind who would see a tiny baby and not want to do everything they can to protect it. I can't really talk about this with my friends as they're all pregnant or new mums and I don't want to stress them out!
I think she was upset that they weren’t fawning all over her upon her return to work after Baby A and B. It would fit there not being ‘any team spirit’ so she tried to stir up some or even revenge.
I think she was jealous that nurse Ellis was in the room she wanted to be in caring for higher needs babies and upset that she wasn’t seen as the star nurse to take on that role. Again, it would fit her ‘not being good enough to care for them’.
It was disrespectful to refer to the other nurse as the new girl.. She was qualified and had worked there for six months.
I think she was jealous that nurse Ellis was in the room she wanted to be in caring for higher needs babies and upset that she wasn’t seen as the star nurse to take on that role. Again, it would fit her ‘not being good enough to care for them’.
It was disrespectful to refer to the other nurse as the new girl.. She was qualified and had worked there for six months.
This is an interesting point you make. Someone asked about whether the timeline of deaths meant anything.
I checked out the dates on the FB photos people were talking about - and children ABC happened a week after she got back from a hen do with colleagues. The death on 23 Oct happened a week before she was at a wedding with colleagues. The June cluster of 2016 happened before and after her holiday - which may have been with friends? One death happened a few days after Valentines Day.
Very very tenuous and speculative links of course - but I wondered if her trigger was feeling left out/not the centre of attention etc. Her birthday is 31 Dec and it's Christmas month - when she would get attention, which might explain why Dec/Jan were quiet.
Can’t help but feel sorry for 5hose poor parents having to listen to the day they lost a child so sad 
I do think it was out of spite and jealousy. Only my opinion obviously.
I know a lot of people have disregarded the note as ramblings, but the whole “I killed them because I’m not good enough”. Seems to me like she was jealous and bitter that other nurses were seemingly doing better and getting more praise than her? Maybe she killed babies in other nurse’s care out of jealousy and spite and to try and sabotage them, to make herself seem a hero and a good nurse…
I’d be really interested to know what her childhood was like. Was she pandered and spoilt and always made to feel superior? Or were there deeper issues there?
I just think so far she’s come across as “me me me”.
I know a lot of people have disregarded the note as ramblings, but the whole “I killed them because I’m not good enough”. Seems to me like she was jealous and bitter that other nurses were seemingly doing better and getting more praise than her? Maybe she killed babies in other nurse’s care out of jealousy and spite and to try and sabotage them, to make herself seem a hero and a good nurse…
I’d be really interested to know what her childhood was like. Was she pandered and spoilt and always made to feel superior? Or were there deeper issues there?
I just think so far she’s come across as “me me me”.
Its truly horrific when you think about how she possibly viewed those little babies.
Jealous enough that a less experienced nurse was in room 1. I can imagine LL was seething, especially after her excessively zealous messages to be in that room.
I think after Shipman’s trial they conducted a review. The trial was for either single or double digit number of deaths, where as the review I’m sure found something like 250 that they believed to be attributed to him. If someone has a whole life sentence then there is little point bringing more charges I would have thought as it’s not in the public/victims best interests. But there will be an enquiry or a review.
(Sorry, not hot on my terms)
(Sorry, not hot on my terms)
Did anyone notice Dr Gibbs’ reply to the defence, I think it really implies he thinks LL hurt the babies
Attachments
Having worked for the NHS for many years staffing has always been an issue unfortunately. However in my experience those patients requiring 1:1 care always get prioritised and the patients who need less intensive care tend to be the ones who suffer the effects of short staffing. So for example the babies in the ITU room 1 requiring 1:1 care will get it but the babies in the ‘nursery’ as they call it will have one nurse looking after 3 or 4 babies. So these babies in room 1 will not be affected by short staffing levels. Thats just my understanding and experience of working for an over stretched NHS for many years. Please correct me if im wrong because ive not actually ever worked in a SCBU/NICU
Think of the David Fuller case - the man who molested dead bodies in the morgue in Tunbridge Wells. He was charged and convicted on x number of crimes, but there is still an investigation into whether he carried out other crimes. This one is close to my heart (wrong phrase) because my mother was in the morgue when he was active. The police told me she was not involved, but it still worries me especially when you hear of new cases.
So, for the parents of the babies' whose deaths are not yet being part of the trial, I'm sure there's a horrible sense of 'what if'.
So, for the parents of the babies' whose deaths are not yet being part of the trial, I'm sure there's a horrible sense of 'what if'.
Oh my goodness I cant imagine how you must feel knowing your poor mum was there. That was probably one of the most shocking cases I have ever read about. Beyond comprehension.
I think its important to remember that probably 99% of what we are reading in the press is paraphrasing of what both counsel and witnesses are saying. There will be huge, huge gaps. I think a lot of people are focussing on what they are seeing reported without a true, full picture of what it refers to/the context/what it means. If we were to obtain the court transcripts after the end of the trial then we would see this.
I work in law, majority in the family law field but have some criminal experience. The public would be utterly shocked at cases that the police and CPS persue and bring to charge and trial where there is evidence of innocence and it is either ignored, not obtained, or obtained literally during the trial. The one thing this country is very good at, is prosecuting and imprisoning innocent people. I have been at a trial where the police and CPS were aware of evidence that proved innocence from the day the suspect was arrested and interviewed. They failed to obtain this evidence from social care until lunchtime on the first day of the two day trial when the police officer waltzed into the court room with it after lunch. Despite this the prosecution declined to withdraw their case & the Judge wished to hear from the defendant despite acknowledging that the case should be dismissed at that point. The defendant gave their evidence on the stand the next morning and the Judge made sure the police and CPS were aware of their failings throughout the case from start to finish and found the suspect not guilty. The suspect lost their career due to the arrest & charge and had the police & CPS done their job at the start they would never have been charged.
Of course many guilty people also walk away without charge or in the case of family law are permitted to continue abusing ex partners and children too.
For me, I am on the fence with regards to LL’s guilt. From a legal point of view and with what has been reported, I see no smoking gun from the CPS in legal terms. There appears to be tons of reasonable doubt in a legal sense. I highly doubt she will receive a fair trial as juries tend to vote with their hearts and not with a methodical, logical, legal mind set or approach to the actual evidence. They will see someone accused of hurting and murdering babies and think, like many on here, that the police & CPS can’t possibly have got it wrong and bought it to trial without “knowing/having evidence” that she is guilty.
I would be really interested to see if there were any collapses/deaths when LL was not on duty. I hope this information does come out during the course of the trial. I am also very interested to hear what the defence experts have to say.
I would like to clarify something that was said on a previous thread about expert witnesses and independent witnesses as the clarification given by another poster wasn’t quite correct.
So far none of this expert witnesses are Court appointed. As far as I am aware this doesn’t happen in criminal cases in the UK at all. In a family law case for example, whether that is private family law (contact and residence of children) or public family law (care proceedings) independent medical witnesses are jointly instructed by all parties in a case and the Court/Judge has to approve/choose the expert if the parties can’t agree who should be instructed. These experts have only one duty and that is to the Court to help the Judge decide what to do in the case. They are not “for” one side or the other.
In criminal cases the medical experts are instructed and paid for solely by the party who instructs them, so either prosecution or defence. They are not independent and do not have the exact same legal or professional duties to the Court that experts do in family law cases.
I think its very interesting that there are a lot of “I don’t know, can’t be sure, can’t recall” answers coming from witnesses. This automatically weakens the prosecution case and casts doubt.
At the start of this trial I realised that I used to know someone who had some knowledge of the goings on at CoC. In 2019 I briefly dated a very senior and experienced neonatal advanced practitioner who worked at a hospital nearby to CoC. At the time she told me there were awful things going on there and that one of the nurses had been wrongly accused of terrible things and she felt the truth would come out eventually. She said that all neonatal nurses at hospitals in the area knew the truth about CoC but would not elaborate further other than to say it was known to be an awful place to work. She never mentioned LL by name. She was very professional and strict about patient confidentiality etc. She had knowledge of the details of some of the collapses/deaths and felt that LL was the scapegoat. I never knew who she was talking about or any detail at all until this trial started.
I work in law, majority in the family law field but have some criminal experience. The public would be utterly shocked at cases that the police and CPS persue and bring to charge and trial where there is evidence of innocence and it is either ignored, not obtained, or obtained literally during the trial. The one thing this country is very good at, is prosecuting and imprisoning innocent people. I have been at a trial where the police and CPS were aware of evidence that proved innocence from the day the suspect was arrested and interviewed. They failed to obtain this evidence from social care until lunchtime on the first day of the two day trial when the police officer waltzed into the court room with it after lunch. Despite this the prosecution declined to withdraw their case & the Judge wished to hear from the defendant despite acknowledging that the case should be dismissed at that point. The defendant gave their evidence on the stand the next morning and the Judge made sure the police and CPS were aware of their failings throughout the case from start to finish and found the suspect not guilty. The suspect lost their career due to the arrest & charge and had the police & CPS done their job at the start they would never have been charged.
Of course many guilty people also walk away without charge or in the case of family law are permitted to continue abusing ex partners and children too.
For me, I am on the fence with regards to LL’s guilt. From a legal point of view and with what has been reported, I see no smoking gun from the CPS in legal terms. There appears to be tons of reasonable doubt in a legal sense. I highly doubt she will receive a fair trial as juries tend to vote with their hearts and not with a methodical, logical, legal mind set or approach to the actual evidence. They will see someone accused of hurting and murdering babies and think, like many on here, that the police & CPS can’t possibly have got it wrong and bought it to trial without “knowing/having evidence” that she is guilty.
I would be really interested to see if there were any collapses/deaths when LL was not on duty. I hope this information does come out during the course of the trial. I am also very interested to hear what the defence experts have to say.
I would like to clarify something that was said on a previous thread about expert witnesses and independent witnesses as the clarification given by another poster wasn’t quite correct.
So far none of this expert witnesses are Court appointed. As far as I am aware this doesn’t happen in criminal cases in the UK at all. In a family law case for example, whether that is private family law (contact and residence of children) or public family law (care proceedings) independent medical witnesses are jointly instructed by all parties in a case and the Court/Judge has to approve/choose the expert if the parties can’t agree who should be instructed. These experts have only one duty and that is to the Court to help the Judge decide what to do in the case. They are not “for” one side or the other.
In criminal cases the medical experts are instructed and paid for solely by the party who instructs them, so either prosecution or defence. They are not independent and do not have the exact same legal or professional duties to the Court that experts do in family law cases.
I think its very interesting that there are a lot of “I don’t know, can’t be sure, can’t recall” answers coming from witnesses. This automatically weakens the prosecution case and casts doubt.
At the start of this trial I realised that I used to know someone who had some knowledge of the goings on at CoC. In 2019 I briefly dated a very senior and experienced neonatal advanced practitioner who worked at a hospital nearby to CoC. At the time she told me there were awful things going on there and that one of the nurses had been wrongly accused of terrible things and she felt the truth would come out eventually. She said that all neonatal nurses at hospitals in the area knew the truth about CoC but would not elaborate further other than to say it was known to be an awful place to work. She never mentioned LL by name. She was very professional and strict about patient confidentiality etc. She had knowledge of the details of some of the collapses/deaths and felt that LL was the scapegoat. I never knew who she was talking about or any detail at all until this trial started.
He was also guilty of the Bedsit Murders, which went unsolved for many years. Thanks @Jessica Fletcher, it was horrible but I HAD to know - quite appreciate that other people might not want/need to know.
I'm gonna say the reason she thought LL was the scapegoat was because she worked nearby... And not actually at the hospital.. I don't know how anyone can think that
I am still so unsure but the last weeks trial sways me more towards guilty than not guilty for the first time.
Only thing I feel from reading transcripts to me it feels like people are answering to fit the narrative that she is guilty and lots of differing answers from what previous police statements were etc
I’m a paediatric nurse and for me a little baby who hadn’t opened his bowls ever, having bilious aspirates/1 vomit, air in tummy on X-ray, distended abdomen as per nurses notes and patient being unsettled etc would be major worrying signs for me as a nurse, but all the responses today about child C seem to indicate no one is worried about that and I don’t get it.
Only thing I feel from reading transcripts to me it feels like people are answering to fit the narrative that she is guilty and lots of differing answers from what previous police statements were etc
I’m a paediatric nurse and for me a little baby who hadn’t opened his bowls ever, having bilious aspirates/1 vomit, air in tummy on X-ray, distended abdomen as per nurses notes and patient being unsettled etc would be major worrying signs for me as a nurse, but all the responses today about child C seem to indicate no one is worried about that and I don’t get it.
Well she has one of the best defence lawyers in the country, I am sure he will have covered all bases and ensure that its as fair a trial as it can be. I don't really get how someone who worked in a different hospital but close by who had heard it was a terrible place to work can be sure she is innocent but each to their own.
Quoting myself here but how can an abdomen be described as soft to firm to touch
It’s either soft OR firm it can’t be both
I just feel there's so many contradictions about who was where and when, how the babies were doing etc that makes it so confusing and hard to really know what the actual situation was. I know we've heard lots about 'expected' collapses etc, but my feeling is - how could it be expected if those babies perhaps weren't monitored as closely as they should have been (hours without fluids/lines not being in/temperatures not being taken etc). You can't expect what you don't know?
So sad for all these parents to be hearing this about their precious babies
- Status