LGB Discussion

[judgejohndeed]

Well, I'm not au fait with all the legalities. Does the current situation not make it possible for one of the parents to be pushed out by the estranged biological parents if they later decide they want to play a bigger role in the child's life?

I thought same sex parents wanted to be named on Birth Certificates to stop that kind of thing happening, not because they were worried about hurt feelings?

It's a bit like how, before civil partnerships and same sex marriages were legal, family members could freeze out the long term same sex partner of an ill family member to the point they had no say - and could even be excluded from funerals, etc.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, though.

I could be wrong here but I've always understood the situation to be about hurt feelings from 'intended parents' who feel they are not adequately recognised on birth certificates. Nobody who has PR can be pushed out of a child's life - and several people/agencies such as social services can have PR over a child at once - and you don't only obtain PR through being listed on a BC. BCs also don't change throughout your life, for example suppose I adopt a child next week, the child's BC would still list their bio parents and I would have an adoption order granting me PR which also extinguishes the previous PR held by bio parents. The legal 'problem' in this area is probably that PR stems from the BC in some cases (unmarried fathers) and a general lack of awareness of how someone acquires PR, but that doesn't mean a BC should do anything other than list bio parents even if the law on granting PR were to change, in my opinion. There are all kinds of reasons a child might need to know who their biological parents are, not least for things like health information, and to start putting people who aren't biologically related to the child on there makes the situation and information messy.

I do understand the need for social acknowledgement of parenthood - my Dad isn't on my birth certificate, and the man who is is someone I have never met in my life - but to be honest? The kind of small minded person who thinks its only hetero couples, or those on the BC that 'count' as parents are not the kinds of people who would change their minds even if same sex parents were to be listed on BCs anyway. Changing the document won't change those attitudes. The BC reflects the biological reality of parenthood, it can't and won't change parentage/how people view modern families socially.

Anyway this is all a very long winded way of me saying - absolutely agree that people not recognising same sex couples as 'parents' is a big social problem but the BC issue is IMO a red herring/distraction and wouldn't change anything in that regard.

 

[HockyRorror]

It’s repetitive and I know you’re all sick of it but this brings it back to the elephant in the room I keep mentioning. I do not believe for one second we’d have seen this kind of backlash towards Pride and LGB in the west in the year 2023 if the TQ++++ cult hadn’t got out of control with their demands to the rest of society in the last decade. No way.

 

[Nottonightbabe]

Do those that are LGB actually like all this glitter an flags an making huge fuss over it, not being disrespectful but I am genuinely curious if it's somthing that's welcomed or if it was rather not made as huge as it is

My mate hates it all, she's been with her partner now a few years an she's a lovely quiet girl (which is surprising cause my mates a nutter ) an both have talked about how much they hate all this putting flags an glitter into people's faces as they feel its of sort of pushing it on people an they would rather just get on with life like everyone else

Bisexual lady here and married to a man . I've been to pride marches and don't really like what it's become, it's often now a sexualised spectacle . I feel similar to your friend, in that there's a lot of attention and celebration thrown on the LGB community and actually, lots of us just want to live our lives as every other person . I would rather being gay was normalised, rather than marked out all the time as being different I guess.

On the subject of the sports stars participating in demonstrations, for some this can be problematic, depending on where they're from. A Russian racing driver has spoken before about while he respects other races/cultures/sexualities, it would be difficult for him as a high profile star from there to make a stand, sadly. Some would end up with their card being marked...

 

[Sideboard Bob]

I also left school in the 90s I remember being so afraid because of what I read in The Scum newspaper or News of the world, I remember reading articles that basically said my sexuality made me a horrible person and made me think of suicide many times as a teenager, they wouldn't get away with that crap now. Anyone suspected of being gay/lesbian in my day was bullied.

I kinda grew up in a macho world, being called gay was a weapon, I feel your pain not being able to talk about crushes

I really feel for you. I am bi, but when I first realised I wasn‘t straight, I was 12 and thought I was a lesbian, this was in around 94/95? And I’m still more attracted to other women.

All this to say, I know I have the bi “privilege“ of being able to date men, so I’ve always felt so empathetic to my friends who are gay.

So although it wasn’t exactly the same, I know what you mean! The tabloids scared the crap out of me.
I hate that it made you feel that way. It’s sick. You were just being you. I’m so sorry.
I feel like back then, the “default” was that everyone was homophobic, you genuinely didn’t know if someone was ok with gay people unless they said so.

And yeah, even being “suspected” of being gay was enough. I remember in a sex ed class the word “lesbian“ was said (thinking back, I don’t know how because this was section 28 times), and I felt my face going bright red, I thought it was over for me.
---

yeah, things were more "rock n roll" in the 90s...I remember growing up there was this news reporter who came out years later as a gay man, and he said to come out in the 90s was equal to bathing yourself in petrol and setting yourself on fire *shivers*

Poor guy. I remember headlines about Stephen Gately, saying he “admits” he’s gay. Like it was this shameful thing. Got to love all the Boyzone fans who didn’t give a shit though, the girls still loved him.

 

[SILKWORM]

Do those that are LGB actually like all this glitter an flags an making huge fuss over it, not being disrespectful but I am genuinely curious if it's somthing that's welcomed or if it was rather not made as huge as it is

I don't like glitter.

As for flags, don't mind the old pride flag but man these different iterations of flags people are coming out with now is just exhausting. I use the good old fashioned pride flag and literally ignore everything else at this point.

As for Pride, for me it's a point of remembrance, taking stock of how far we've come etc etc.

 

[zetta buttons]

I lurk. Tbh, my wife and I are feeling a bit meh about everything right now. It’s probably our ages (early/mid 40s) where we have moved on from the younger scene and haven’t reached the age where we can join lesbian walking groups ().

I also roll my eyes at the circles on Instagram going rainbow on the roll of midnight 1/6. What does marks and Spencer even do for us (let’s not bring up innocent eh!)?

I have to say being a gay woman now feels very different from being one 10 years ago. In so many ways. However, at least we have our freedoms.

 

[Ensay]

Does anyone else think quite a lot of straight people underestimate how tough it can be to come out?

I was reading comments recently from people saying things like “no one cares now” or “why is it seen as brave?”

I’m not suggesting a major fanfare should be sounded any time a person comes out, but it’s still hard for many - especially those with religious family. Sometimes you don’t know how anyone will react as well.

 

[HeadlessPostman]

No….just NO

 

[glasgow27]

I will say that I went to Glasgow Pride in June for the first time this year and whilst there was no fighting, I noticed quite a difference between LGB marchers and the trans marchers. The latter were quite loud and aggressive whereas the LGB for the most part seemed there to celebrate, especially after the COVID years where many of them were cancelled.

 

[Tryger88]

Sorry. I don’t always mean to be negative.

I’ll find a good news story soon.

Sorry if it was my earlier post that made you think only good news stories should be shared, my thought process was it would stop @Ensay and @HockyRorror from scrapping like 2 tom cats in a alleyway, it kinda worked

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Bit in bold - I kind of love this, because imagine if you’d said to a gay rights campaigner in 1983 that 40 years later gay people would be complaining that the council are spending too much money on pride!!!

I‘m not even saying they shouldn’t complain, it just highlights how far we‘ve come.

The problem is that council's are supporting this new homophobic QT+ version of pride. And if you read Time To Think by Hannah Barnes, she says that many children sought out gender treatment following homophobic bullying at school. Pride IMO is now full of straight people bullying gay and lesbian people.

So if you told a gay rights campaigner from '83 that in '23 council's were spending £££ on Pride they might be delighted, until they heard that lesbians were being sacked from jobs, bullied out of campus clubs, banned from dating sites, for being exclusively same-sex attracted, then they'd probably be massively depressed.

 

[Ensay]

There’s a new lesbian dating show starting on Netflix next week. It’s called The Ultimatum: Queer Love, despite everyone in the trailer being female and all of the contestants being in lesbian relationships.The media is really scared to say female, girl, woman or lesbian and even GAY sometimes nowadays

Yeah I don't like the word 'queer' as I've said here before. Not just because the reclaimed version has a loose meaning, but because I remember when it was mostly used as a homophobic slur.

They don't even need to have lesbian or gay in the title. They could have just called it 'The Ultimatum'. If people started watching it without realising it was all women that's their fault!

 

[Em_gardener]

I think the left got too strong and got carried away and now we're swinging back to the right. It's the pendulum effect and it always happens. The left needs to cop on - it's alienating centrists and left leaning people completely and it's totally lost touch with working class people. I don't think the left even likes the working class anymore - not eco friendly or pc enough. We've gone too far left and we could potentially over correct now by going too far right.

 

[JustHereForTheAgriculture]

I don’t understand the bury your head in the sand mentality some LGBs have to the T.
It’s not that people just keep bringing it up to troll or detail or whatever other darvo stuff, it’s at the heart of a lot of LGB issues. Gender ideology is at odds with the rights and experiences of same sex attracted people.
So it stands to reason that when there’s a ‘hey look at this LGB issue’, a lot of the time, it’s going to have some relation back to the T. Pretending it doesn’t isn’t going to help anything. Or acting as if everything is the big bad conservatives fault completely ignores what is actually going on.

 

[Ensay]

Shooting at a gay club in Colorado leaves 5 dead and 18 injured.

Club Q Colorado shooting: Suspect held after five killed in attack at nightclub

US President Joe Biden says Americans "cannot and must not tolerate hate" as local people grieve.

www.bbc.co.uk

Both gun control and homophobia still sadly remain issues.

 

[Ensay]

Are any other LGB people getting alarmed by the amount of people who seem to be turning their backs on us over the trans thing? Just in another thread people are expressing disgust at the pride flag because they see it as trans taking over.

Whereas I'm gay and I see it as a way of saying "we're open regardless of your sexuality and homophobic crap won't be tolerated", whereas it doesn't feel like many straight people see it that way.

I don't want to be depressing, but I only see it getting worse.

 

[Ensay]

To give my two cents on the off chance it raises any points that interest folks:

1-1 : if marriage were strictly religious only and didn’t come with any civil benefits such as eligibility for tax breaks and other things I’d say it was « acceptably » homophobic - religions can have their own rules and people can choose to follow or not. Once marriage is a civil institution then no, it is homophobic and not tolerable.

1-2: I’ve no idea, not being LGB, but I do respect their stance on, by being entirely unconcerned with, the T which appears to have captured Stonewall.

2-1 : No. Tom Daley can make his political points elsewhere. This is sport. Aside from that, it’s base rudeness to invite guests and then criticise them when they turn up.

2-2 : To me it certainly *feels* that homophobia is decreasing - I honestly can’t remember the last time I heard a homophobic comment “in the wild”. That said, my daughter was ostracised by a couple of her Muslim classmates recently after one of them told the other not to hang out with her because she’s a lesbian and it would be against their religion. They’re only 11, and I’ve no idea what the Quran states on the topic, but I hope that they’ll grow out of it.

2-1 - Normally I'd agree that it's rude to criticise countries you've invited, but I feel it's different when it comes to something like homosexuality being illegal. It's not as though Daley was criticising something benign. If we do nothing, then we're effectively saying it should be dealt with entirely within their countries, but it must be incredibly difficult to have that fight when the starting point is that one's position is illegal. It's not like they can just write to their MP.

2-2 - I've heard more homophobic comments in the wild, but then I'm gay, so it'd make more sense I suppose. Islam says that homosexuality is 'haram' (which means forbidden). That said, I believe they're similar to Christians in that they don't promote bullying of gay people. After all, it's possible to think homosexuality is wrong while still being civil to gay people, and ostracising homosexuals arguably isn't civil.

 

[HockyRorror]

I have read this thread with interest, and the gender one, neither of which changes my mind. But it's interesting to be aware of others' opinions.

Again, apologies for what might be perceived as aggressive questioning, but what does “I support trans” mean?

Do you support white people for being born white?
Do you support black people for being born black?
Do you support gay people for being born gay?
Do you support disabled people for being born disabled?

What does “supporting trans people” mean to you? Other than being polite, calling the trans people you encounter with their appropriate pronouns and names?

What is trans to you? A person that has had full top to bottom surgery, or a man that has put on a dress? As both are acceptable trans by 2023 definition, which type are you referring to and what support are you giving them, that isn’t afforded to other members of decent public? Lying?

And To include the Number 1 question that nobody can ever answer: In the UK, what rights do trans people not have that non trans people have? Name just a single right excluded to them. You can’t. They don’t want rights, they want privileges.

 

[Em_gardener]

To be fair, I do think that trans issues affect women more whether that be women in sport or women in prisons or women who are same sex attracted. Women are being encroached on by transwomen (men) in a way that isn't happening with men and transmen (women). I do think it's relevant for gay men too if they're being told that they should date a transman even though they're not attracted to women. I just think transwomen are pushier and more demanding than transmen.

 

[Em_gardener]

I'm a libertarian so the way I see it is that a shop should be able to sell what it wants and people should be free to buy -- or not buy -- whatever they like. I'm all for people boycotting a shop if they dislike what it sells, but demanding removal of material that no one is being forced to buy feels heavy handed.

And some of the backlash has been against ALL pride merchandise, not just the items you mention. For example, there are Tik Tok videos of a guy with a pride t-shirt asking fellow shoppers if they support 'degeneracy'. I suspect there are plenty of other examples because those who are against LGB feel more emboldened to be openly homophobic now.

And I know the reply will be "yeah cause of trans people" but, like I say, I don't accept excuses for homophobia. It's never right in my opinion. People have brains and can separate T stuff from LGB but they choose not to because it suits their homophobic agenda.

I agree that there a lot of homophobes who will take advantage of the trans issue to push back against gay rights as well and that's wrong. But it's not as simple as saying people have brains and should be able to separate the T from the LGB. They are inextricably linked together and not just by the homophobes but because they share almost all the same charities, flags and celebrations etc. Most people aren't going to think too deeply about it, not because they're hateful bigots but because it's not that relevant to them and they have other stuff going on. I'm straight, I voted yes in Ireland's gay marriage referendum and I don't consider myself to be homophobic but I have never been to pride and I would never buy myself a pride mug or t-shirt because I just don't have enough interest or don't really see it as relevant to me. I do differentiate between LGB and T but that's because I've become interested how gender ideology is spreading and affecting women. If I didn't have that interest maybe I would still see LGB and T as one big homogeneous rainbow - a lot of people do.