Karen Read Case

[Libertine1975]

The O'Keefe family could still win a civil case against Karen even if she is found not guilty in the criminal case - different standard of proof and look at the OJ Sinpson case.

I think she did it, it was an accident or she didn't realise but it's what makes sense to me. I also see that the investigation was a shit show so whilst I do believe she is guilty I can see why she could be acquitted.

Long and the short of it is you kinda expect police to take more care when it's one of their own so how crappy are this force.

 

[juniperroad]

I think a lot of us (myself included) get hung up on the "she's innocent" or "she's guilty". Sadly, it doesn't even really matter, and we will probably never know. The commonwealth has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she is guilty. I have a hard time believing they are doing that. But, like all the lawyers are saying, you never know what a jury of one's peers will do.

If I was on the jury I would be so curious who this *former Trooper Proctor* is and what the story is behind that.

 

[Tatvam]

Wow, how does the prosecution go about fixing this disaster? This case just gets crazier and crazier. It is scary to me how many people are good at lying or avoiding the truth. This guy will be lucky to keep his job. I bet his days of being called as an expert are over.

I think Burgess might be regretting the day he decided to "take the initiative" to submit a new report!

 

[GoldSilver]

I am in two minds, really can’t work it out.

 

[theGC]

Not another day of you lot having the same argument hahaha. Is this what it's like being in the Jury room?!

 

[LondonCalling272]

My LinkedIn is outdated also, but has my education correctly. And, my company website would definitely have it correct. But, I'm never going to be called as an expert for anything. We will see what happens.

Hopefully, the accident reconstructionist is soon.

And, it is still hard for me to believe the commonwealth can totally change the way they do this trial compared to the last one.

It’s that the degree he did claim to have didn’t even exist and has been getting the other one for 17 years. How do you trust anything if the foundation is a lie?

That’s not just forgetting to update a new job or making something sound more important than it was it’s a blatant lie.

I don’t understand how they dropped the ball so badly with him. It will be interesting to see how Welcher compares to him since the reports are related

 

[juniperroad]

Well, Lawyer You Know and Emily D. Baker both think the Aruba evidence will come in.

We know they had a volatile relationship, we know all these people liked to drink, just show me how he was killed. I'd be so frustrated as a juror.

 

[Tatvam]

I agree, not necessarily on here but I honestly think people's dislike for Karen clouds their judgement on what the actual evidence is.
I don't find her likeable either but you can't convict someone of murder based on character!
Not from here, but I hate the insinuation that if you don't believe it can be proven that Karen did it then you're a crazed conspiracy theorist!

 

[Tatvam]

It’s a shame they don’t have a majority vote in jurys.

Yes, this thread Is just confirming my belief that the only ever outcome with this case will be a hung jury and mistrial. It is so divided!

 

[karma4klattie]

But surely if she 'clipped' him then he wouldn't have all the injuries he had, the scratches on his arm, the swollen eyes. Did the car clip him in the face because he has no injuries from the neck down (besides the arm), not even a bruise.

In my opinion he was bet up in the house and his body dumped on the lawn.

The swollen eyes are explainable: One of the medical witnesses said the swollen eye, first one, and later the second one as well, was because after death from a bang on the back of the head blood seeps into the tissues around the eyes causing them to swell alarmingly.

Similarly, if you acknowledge that he had no injuries from the neck down, how could he have been beaten up without a single punch landing on his body from the neck down, no bruises? Wouldn't he have had some sort of evidence of a fight remaining on his hands like raw or bruised knuckles, damaged finger nails etc, or did he just stand motionless while his head alone was beaten until he died? Did all the other people there that night just stand/sit there when the body was dragged/carried out of the house and dumped on the front lawn? Wouldn't seeing or hearing someone killed in a fight leave at least one or two of the visitors in shock and distressed and probably in need of victim support? PTSD?

It was Karen Read herself who said she clipped him.. It was Karen Read who knew she'd find him him by the flagpole.

 

[Alittlebitofme]

Bev really looks like she hates her job, I have never seen a judge carry on like this, she is so biased and she should not have been allowed judge for this retrial.

 

[Alittlebitofme]

I reckon they were having a row, she tipped him out of the car outside the house and drove off, backed up fast because she'd come up with a parting shot and, purely by accident, 'clipped him' (her words not mine) causing him to fall backwards and hit his head. If you remember, Natasha Richardson fell skiing and banged her head, one fall, one knock and she died, sadly it can happen.

I'm sure about this. She was telling the first responders she's hit him, and when she and Jennifer McCabe went back to find him she said 'he was exactly where I expected him to be' (again, her words not mine). I'm very sorry for her, I don't believe for a moment she tried to kill him, it was a terrible accident and she should have faced up to it, but she was drunk and muddle headed and only put two and two together as the situation unfolded. Her failure was that having 'clipped him' she didn't go back to see if he was OK because at that point he could well have been saved.

I also don't think Brian Higgins had anything to do with it. In those text messages all I heard was her giving him the come-on and him being cautious and guarded in case she was taking the piss, and him not really believing that she fancied him.

What fascinates me is the arm wounds and the only suggestion I can come up with is that Chloe was put out for a poo, found John on the lawn and attempted to drag him by the arm. Problem with that is the complete lack of Chloe's DNA or hair on John's clothes. Was there any debris on the ground which could have caused those deep scratches?

He was laying on his phone, as can be told by the phone battery temperature records, was he laying on his arm or was it out to the side? Could the snow plough have caused him any hurt (in addition to scattering bits of tail light)? If the snow was so deep it needed ploughing I think it's extremely likely that the body would have been hidden and only looked like banked up snow at that point so I'm not surprised the driver didn't see him.

But surely if she 'clipped' him then he wouldn't have all the injuries he had, the scratches on his arm, the swollen eyes. Did the car clip him in the face because he has no injuries from the neck down (besides the arm), not even a bruise.

In my opinion he was bet up in the house and his body dumped on the lawn.

 

[avabella]

Jen McCabe might be called back to be cross examined again - as she said she saw the car at 00.45hrs

All the evidence re: John's phone can't be relied on. He could've dropped the phone at 00.32 hrs on the front lawn (or thrown it) and then made it inside Fairview. We don't know what went on from 00.32hrs until his body was discovered hours later. Jen McCabe called John's phone seven times - she deleted all but one call. I'm assuming they were all looking for John's phone and Jen decided to call it. Brian Albert's home was apparently soundproof so, they didn't hear John's phone outside....(heavy sarcasm)

So if we take Jen McCabe saying she saw the car at 12.45am then we can take from that that either;

- she’s incredibly stupid and has lied about seeing Karen’s car at 12.45, with no way of knowing where or who Karen was with (therefore easily debunking her time. This would be a massive risk to take as no one had any way of knowing where Karen was at that point).

- we know she *couldn’t* have seen the car at 12.45 because Karen’s car was at Johns house.

- so common sense and the most likely explanation is that she’s mistaken on her timings. This was a random night where I doubt anyone is really looking closely at their phones/watches while having a good time with their friends.

The whole ‘been beaten up’ story is just baffling. Firstly, why? Why would they? And secondly, a bunch of cops are going to put him outside on the front lawn? When there’s masses of woodland out the back?

 

[juniperroad]

Do you follow the live trial each day ? It started last week and is expected to last at least six.

There are plenty of US attorneys on YT who show it live and comment as it goes along or others who review the days proceedings later in the evening UK time which may be useful to you if you’re interested.

Yes, I love Emily D. Baker and Lawyer You Know. I watched the whole first trial.

I really wish Karen hadn't done those interviews. They aren't helping at all.

I just want the science and data on how he was hit and killed by a car. All this other stuff is just noise to me. She doesn't look that great, the other characters in this story don't look great, but show me how he was killed by a car.

 

[juniperroad]

It points to an expensive defence team.
The data from the car and the phone for me prove that she did it. No doubt whatsoever.

It will be interesting to hear the data from the car this time around. I am going to be interested in them bringing up the first accident reconstructionist. What a crazy joke he was. Hope the new one makes a bit more sense. We will see what happens.

 

[NarcRage]

What has white privilege got to do with it ?

It is 100% a cover up, there is no way Karen would be doing all them interviews and saying everything she said if she was guilty.

Obviously none of us know what actually happened but in my opinion I think John went into the house, maybe confronted Higgins over his texts to Karen, John got a punch and fell back and banged his head....the end!
He was then placed on the front lawn at some stage and the plan of "he never came into the house was born", they also had about 4/5 hours before he was found to get rid of any evidence etc.

The 2 Brian's are cops they know exactly what to do to cover this up. Then you have all the butt dials, the dog, Higgins going back to the station, Jen McCabe's craziness, Ally McCabe driving Colin around and lying about it. The FBI and the lying to the FBI. No one in the house seeing a body on the lawn when they were leaving. The ME stating that there was no impact site compatible with a motor accident.

2.27 Hos long to die in cold.....

I'm sure there is lots more I can't think, happy trial day 18 !

Karen Read knows what actually happened.

I think space aliens came down and killed him. Or Elvis riding Shergar.

The dog did it. The only dog in the world that is able to kill a man and leave no dog DNA on his sweatshirt.

Why would she be giving all these interviews if she was guilty? Because if she can influence a jury pool and put forward her bullshit defence without having to take the stand she might get off. She only needs one juror to buy her crap. And 70 million people voted for Trump so Americans are open to bullshit.

Not having to spend the rest of your life in prison ....that's a pretty good reason.....

 

[Alfie1234]

I wonder if I'll see you on a Molly Martens thread supporting that woman too?

You seem to be confusing supporting someone and just watching a trial and considering the evidence.

 

[SirHiss]

As far as I can tell from what I've watched/read, Proctor didn't go to the scene in the timeframe that it is alleged that he could have 'planted' the evidence though. The defence don't even go there with that angle because they know it's not possible. Brian Albert not coming out of his house also isn't an indication of guilt I don't feel - I'm not sure of the layout of his house but it looks massive and perhaps his bedroom was at the back. There was also a literal snowstorm outside so I think it's plausible they didn't hear anything at that time. I reckon the disposing of the phone was an attempt by Higgins not to have those 'saucy' texts read by anyone

Higgins had an FBI buddy help him screen shot those texts before he got rid of the phone, so I don't think he was hiding them.
Brian Albert's bedroom window faces the front lawn, right above where the lights of the ambulance, fire engine and cop cars would have been flashing. Perhaps he has black out curtains, ok, maybe didn't notice the lights. But his sister in law was one of the women who found John. If John was such a good friend of hers, why was she not immediately in that house to get her brother in law who is a first responder to help until the EMT arrived? Why wasn't she worried that maybe something happened to her family as well given there was a dead cop on their lawn?

 

[avabella]

I'm so glad this thread was set up I'm obsessed. I have gone back and forth on this and I just don't know still. I watch it on court tv and they do a good job on it but Karen was texting another cop flirting with him in the days before this, I'll find his name asap but she isn't squeaky clean.

Sometimes I think she was so drunk she unknowingly knocked him down and didn't realize until later.

For me it’s like the Lucy Letby case though - either *everyone* else is lying, mistaken, wrong data, incorrect memories, or: the most simple explanation is the answer.

Edited to add; and similarly to LL, she admitted it!

 

[Alittlebitofme]

But surely if she was guilty then there would not be all of the inconsistences in the others statements and actions, the disposing of the phones, the whole issue with Proctor, Brian Albert not coming out of his house when all the commotion was going on outside and so many other things that have happened.