Jenny Apple #4 Tears & Ears!

[feefifofum]

i have never seen a known terminal cancer patient ventilated. My clinical practice was in critical care and trauma. All patients were in the ICU bc they needed ventilation and other advanced support. They were taken off of it if they were deemed brain dead with no chance of survival without mechanical assistance. There is a very designed process for medical assessment of this. The family is consulted yet some insist on continuing in hopes of a miracle. One such case went to the Canadian Supreme Court and the family actually won. Once a patient goes on a ventilator the medical team cannot remove it unless the family agrees. It has changed the way this intervention is implemented in the first place. There are very specific guidelines for it. Being a known terminal patient is one of them. I don't think Jenny’s family would keep her on it for long if they actually knew what was involved. The patient is put into a medically induced coma so that they don’t fight against the machine or grab at the breathing tube or other lines. They can hear you though, its like your foggy mind is floating around in a body that is totally paralyzed. I’ve had it described to me many times by recovered patients. Some actually came back after recovery to thank us for their care and they recounted hearing our conversations to them during their stay. They remembered our voices and could identify us later. That was the good thing about it bc they recovered and their loved ones were encouraged to speak to them or to provide headphones for them to listen to their fav music to allow them to rest their minds. I really hope that Jenny doesn’t have to endure this bc she has no hope of recovery. Comfort and hospice care is the moral, ethical and humane treatment at this point. Sorry for the clinical detail but it is often not known by families in advance. Outwardly they see a patent seemingly resting peacefully but inside their mind and body they are anything but at peace

My mum was on a ventilator in an induced coma for 6-7 weeks in 2007 (partly why she wasn't a candidate later on as they knew she wouldn't come off it again), and the stuff she could remember happening in the ICU was incredible! There was a girl who had attempted suicide (and sadly ultimately succeeded) which my mum remembered and later verified with a nurse (no personal info given of course). She remembered a lot of her time in the coma as being peaceful and she knew she wasn't afraid of death after experiencing that, but she also suffered terrible night terrors for the rest of her life. She was an ex nurse herself so I think she was surprised by how it affected her
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I'm very sorry that you and your family had to witness this. I have been through it myself and its actually very traumatic (I am still affected by what I witnessed now).
Being told a family member isn't a candidate for ventilation is heartbreaking. Logically my head understands that and the reasons behind it, but its very heavy on the heart.

It's so traumatic isn't it...she only passed in December 2022 and for months after I definitely had PTSD with flashbacks constantly. She knew she would never be a candidate (you can probably see my comment above explaining why), but when she realised it was the end of the road it was heartbreaking. To make matters worse, my sister was heavily pregnant with her first kid (born a few days later) and that was what my mum was most sad about before she slipped into unconsciousness. She was so sad she never got to meet him. My sister even asked if they would do an emergency section so my mum could meet him but the HDU nurse shut it right down as we all had RSV at this point. Such an awful time. This is like therapy

 

[carolinew]

I really thought people in induced comas were sleeping peacefully. The truth is so much more shocking!

 

[Turaj]

i have never seen a known terminal cancer patient ventilated. My clinical practice was in critical care and trauma. All patients were in the ICU bc they needed ventilation and other advanced support. They were taken off of it if they were deemed brain dead with no chance of survival without mechanical assistance. There is a very designed process for medical assessment of this. The family is consulted yet some insist on continuing in hopes of a miracle. One such case went to the Canadian Supreme Court and the family actually won. Once a patient goes on a ventilator the medical team cannot remove it unless the family agrees. It has changed the way this intervention is implemented in the first place. There are very specific guidelines for it. Being a known terminal patient is one of them. I don't think Jenny’s family would keep her on it for long if they actually knew what was involved. The patient is put into a medically induced coma so that they don’t fight against the machine or grab at the breathing tube or other lines. They can hear you though, its like your foggy mind is floating around in a body that is totally paralyzed. I’ve had it described to me many times by recovered patients. Some actually came back after recovery to thank us for their care and they recounted hearing our conversations to them during their stay. They remembered our voices and could identify us later. That was the good thing about it bc they recovered and their loved ones were encouraged to speak to them or to provide headphones for them to listen to their fav music to allow them to rest their minds. I really hope that Jenny doesn’t have to endure this bc she has no hope of recovery. Comfort and hospice care is the moral, ethical and humane treatment at this point. Sorry for the clinical detail but it is often not known by families in advance. Outwardly they see a patent seemingly resting peacefully but inside their mind and body they are anything but at peace

Actually Jenny has made it clear she does not want a ventilator. It is not an issue here. I don't know much about this O2 situation but somehow I envisioned Jenny dying at home and that will not happen...but can they give the meds to ease the breathing and stop the reliance on the high dose of 02. I know with a vent family can decide it is time and turn that off but how does this work? Clearly goal at this point is a peaceful passing and to allow time for all to gather. What is the next step?
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Estimates vary a bit but Jenny is hot property so I'd say they are on the high end. I think that Kyle hopes he'll maintain that status in the longer term.

Clearly from Jennie's comments to Kyle on camera she is telling the viewers it is her wish for Kyle to continue to share his story and move on. It sort of sets the stage for next chapter. I guess still up to him if he will do that but he seems to be planning on it. I don't think he is dynamic or interestiing enough..some will follow to see how kids are doing but none of that will last for long.

 

[Monkey1651]

I wondered this as well. It doesn't make sense.

My best guess is the dose was increased to 400 and the hospital still had it listed as 300. This is why they go over your meds every time you go to the dr. Kyle had mentioned they had a pain team appointment to adjust meds coming up. If they are at their local hospital it probably isn’t automatically updated in their system . My pcp and pain team docs are in different hospital systems. So I have to make sure it’s up to date when I see my pcp. Kyle isn’t overdosing his wife. He can’t give her a 400mg patch if she wasn’t prescribed and given a 400mg patch.

 

[oceanbaby]

My best guess is the dose was increased to 400 and the hospital still had it listed as 300. This is why they go over your meds every time you go to the dr. Kyle had mentioned they had a pain team appointment to adjust meds coming up. If they are at their local hospital it probably isn’t automatically updated in their system . My pcp and pain team docs are in different hospital systems. So I have to make sure it’s up to date when I see my pcp. Kyle isn’t overdosing his wife. He can’t give her a 400mg patch if she wasn’t prescribed and given a 400mg patch.

Oh yes, agreed. Since I didn't watch the videos I'm missing the context of what was said, but I didn't think Kyle could or would be overdosing her. It seems it was implied earlier on that it was some mistake Kyle made, but that didn't make sense to me.

 

[suzeq]

Yeah, I got a momentary rush of fear when I saw those children leaning against the window glass.

This alarmed me as well.

He can’t give her a 400mg patch if she wasn’t prescribed and given a 400mg patch.

Are you meaning micrograms...not milligrams?

 

[carolinew]

Oh yes, agreed. Since I didn't watch the videos I'm missing the context of what was said, but I didn't think Kyle could or would be overdosing her. It seems it was implied earlier on that it was some mistake Kyle made, but that didn't make sense to me.

I was the one who made the comment that Kyle had maybe accidentally overdosed her with the wrong patch. In no way did I mean to infer that he did it on purpose. I was thinking he maybe had a supply of 300mg patches and some 400mg patches and applied the wrong one by mistake. I know with my own prescriptions, there's at least one where I'm only actually using half the amount on the prescription because my needs have changed but the actual prescription has never been reduced. Also every time I go to the GP I get more prescriptions so I have heaps of unfilled scripts everywhere.

I also made myself watch to the end of the live vlogs. I just cannot believe how composed Jenny is. I think I would be hysterically crying etc and there she was just being so rational and calm. I was honestly quite in awe of her.

 

[PW212]

I really thought people in induced comas were sleeping peacefully. The truth is so much more shocking!

Keep in mind that ventilated patients are heavily sedated and medically paralyzed hourly by IV injection. We do everything possible to keep them comfortable and peaceful but you can’t give them so much sedation that they have a cardiac or neurological event. You give them enough so that they have stable vitals signs and are not fighting against the prescribed parameters of the ventilator. At times they are likely sleeping peacefully with the sedation but at times they are aware of their surroundings and inability to move. It must be different depending on each patients condition. If a patients is on a very short term post surgery intubation (overnight or less) then they seem to be ok in not remembering. It is the ones that are intubated with ventilation, for a medium to longer periods that are most affected. If someone is actively dying like Jenny that must be an unique situation bc you never get to speak to them afterwards bc they have passed. Obv I have only spoken to those that recovered enough to be able to breathe on their own. Its an awful and heartbreaking thing regardless.

 

[Lolaslife]

i have never seen a known terminal cancer patient ventilated. My clinical practice was in critical care and trauma. All patients were in the ICU bc they needed ventilation and other advanced support. They were taken off of it if they were deemed brain dead with no chance of survival without mechanical assistance. There is a very designed process for medical assessment of this. The family is consulted yet some insist on continuing in hopes of a miracle. One such case went to the Canadian Supreme Court and the family actually won. Once a patient goes on a ventilator the medical team cannot remove it unless the family agrees. It has changed the way this intervention is implemented in the first place. There are very specific guidelines for it. Being a known terminal patient is one of them. I don't think Jenny’s family would keep her on it for long if they actually knew what was involved. The patient is put into a medically induced coma so that they don’t fight against the machine or grab at the breathing tube or other lines. They can hear you though, its like your foggy mind is floating around in a body that is totally paralyzed. I’ve had it described to me many times by recovered patients. Some actually came back after recovery to thank us for their care and they recounted hearing our conversations to them during their stay. They remembered our voices and could identify us later. That was the good thing about it bc they recovered and their loved ones were encouraged to speak to them or to provide headphones for them to listen to their fav music to allow them to rest their minds. I really hope that Jenny doesn’t have to endure this bc she has no hope of recovery. Comfort and hospice care is the moral, ethical and humane treatment at this point. Sorry for the clinical detail but it is often not known by families in advance. Outwardly they see a patent seemingly resting peacefully but inside their mind and body they are anything but at peace

I never knew this and my dad was put on a ventilator with covid. An hour before he passed away the ICU nurse held the phone up to him and I spoke to him for a half an hour telling him everything would be OK that I'd look after my mam and it was OK for him to let go. He passed not long after. This gives me great comfort. Thank you 🩷

 

[PW212]

I never knew this and my dad was put on a ventilator with covid. An hour before he passed away the ICU nurse held the phone up to him and I spoke to him for a half an hour telling him everything would be OK that I'd look after my mam and it was OK for him to let go. He passed not long after. This gives me great comfort. Thank you 🩷

So glad that you were able to speak with him before his passing. We are able to hold their paralyzing agent and sedation for certain assessments or to be awake for a call or test. We do that anyways periodically to see the medical progress in their care. Some are able to relax enough to not breathe against the machine but some are not cognitive enough or stable enough, to stay awake and not fight against the ventilator for long without the sedation Thank god your dad was able to be awake for the call. So sorry for your loss.

 

[abitworried]

i have never seen a known terminal cancer patient ventilated. My clinical practice was in critical care and trauma. All patients were in the ICU bc they needed ventilation and other advanced support. They were taken off of it if they were deemed brain dead with no chance of survival without mechanical assistance. There is a very designed process for medical assessment of this. The family is consulted yet some insist on continuing in hopes of a miracle. One such case went to the Canadian Supreme Court and the family actually won. Once a patient goes on a ventilator the medical team cannot remove it unless the family agrees. It has changed the way this intervention is implemented in the first place. There are very specific guidelines for it. Being a known terminal patient is one of them. I don't think Jenny’s family would keep her on it for long if they actually knew what was involved. The patient is put into a medically induced coma so that they don’t fight against the machine or grab at the breathing tube or other lines. They can hear you though, its like your foggy mind is floating around in a body that is totally paralyzed. I’ve had it described to me many times by recovered patients. Some actually came back after recovery to thank us for their care and they recounted hearing our conversations to them during their stay. They remembered our voices and could identify us later. That was the good thing about it bc they recovered and their loved ones were encouraged to speak to them or to provide headphones for them to listen to their fav music to allow them to rest their minds. I really hope that Jenny doesn’t have to endure this bc she has no hope of recovery. Comfort and hospice care is the moral, ethical and humane treatment at this point. Sorry for the clinical detail but it is often not known by families in advance. Outwardly they see a patent seemingly resting peacefully but inside their mind and body they are anything but at peace

Thank you so much for this info. I had no idea. Sounds like the worst nightmare to me.

 

[LeonorG]

I personally was fine with the Apples having a GFM for treatment purposes and for essentials as Kyle was Jenny's caregiver and in addition they have small children. I was also fine with it because their vlogs were good and informative and awareness-raising. However, after Jenny's death, Kyle should donate a large portion of it to some meaningful cause and there is no need for him to receive more money from viewers.

 

[abitworried]

Estimates vary a bit but Jenny is hot property so I'd say they are on the high end. I think that Kyle hopes he'll maintain that status in the longer term.

Oh, I thought you meant the GFM. Even went there to see how much they made in the last 24 hrs. 2230 btw.

 

[Turaj]

Oh, I thought you meant the GFM. Even went there to see how much they made in the last 24 hrs. 2230 btw.

I am hard pressed when your wife and mother of your children has hours/days left on this earth that recording is even on the radar. To me this would/should be a private time with family and close friends to communicate with Jenny while she still can and to make her as comfortable as possible. I have to think the staff is questioning what is going on.....cameras on kids climbing the windows....tight shots of kids losing their mother and kyle in hall narrating all of this waiting for Jenny to be "decent". We are supposed to believe that Jenny cares so very much about all the viewers that she is going along with this....that they are somehow a critical part of her dying process. I just don't get it and she is certainly free to spend her remaining time on camera. But at the end of the day $$$ is part of the motivation. I watched the videos and will do so for the rest but do feel like an invited intruder...if that makes any sense?

 

[LeonorG]

I also find it very baffling that Jenny would want to write a book and is upset she couldn't and she wants Kyle to do it instead. Like why? Why do some people who had cancer think they can write books? They become narcissistic and self-righteous and all-knowing. Like cancer gives them this ability to figure out life and they are eager to pass on their wisdom. Nalie Agustin 'wrote' a 'book' and it was nothing but inspirational quotes and a very incomplete account of her cancer copy pasted from her instagram followed by some cliched words of wisdom. And she called herself an 'author'.

 

[Turaj]

I also find it very baffling that Jenny would want to write a book and is upset she couldn't and she wants Kyle to do it instead. Like why? Why do some people who had cancer think they can write books? They become narcissistic and self-righteous and all-knowing. Like cancer gives them this ability to figure out life and they are eager to pass on their wisdom. Nalie Agustin 'wrote' a 'book' and it was nothing but inspirational quotes and a very incomplete account of her cancer copy pasted from her instagram followed by some cliched words of wisdom. And she called herself an 'author'.

what strikes me is how staged this is even at this point...Kyle get married and TT family don't be mad at him,... Kyle take more leave and become caregiver...go to Oregon...go here...go there...probably referring to Disney... Kyle write a book.....Mel do some Silhouette ...support Kyle etc. It seemed to be geared to the YT group to support Kyle and her sister, Mel and her family. This is all private and not for anyone else unless you hope YT will be a good source of revenue for Kyle. I assume her father and mother will be there and probably don't want cameras around. I wonder how long it will take to go on full hospice and take advantage of more meds etc? It seems like that should already be happening? There is no quality of life left..in fact it seems the 02 is keeping her alive. Will Kyle continue to film when she cannot talk at all to camera? And yet last week some doc says she is looking good and all tests are great.

 

[Farblegargoyles]

what strikes me is how staged this is even at this point...Kyle get married and TT family don't be mad at him,... Kyle take more leave and become caregiver...go to Oregon...go here...go there...probably referring to Disney... Kyle write a book.....Mel do some Silhouette ...support Kyle etc. It seemed to be geared to the YT group to support Kyle and her sister, Mel and her family. This is all private and not for anyone else unless you hope YT will be a good source of revenue for Kyle. I assume her father and mother will be there and probably don't want cameras around. I wonder how long it will take to go on full hospice and take advantage of more meds etc? It seems like that should already be happening? There is no quality of life left..in fact it seems the 02 is keeping her alive. Will Kyle continue to film when she cannot talk at all to camera? And yet last week some doc says she is looking good and all tests are great.

And yet still people can't see through them. To me that alone is mind boggling.

 

[Idrisrex]

She was unaware of what was going on at that point and didn't suffer, she was essentially in a coma. It's just the family watching it who suffer unfortunately. She didn't have have cancer, she had severe COPD (was on oxygen at home), a pneumothorax and contracting RSV was the straw that broke the camels back. So it might take longer for someone like her to pass over. There's not much the doctors can do apart from keep them comfortable and let nature take its course unfortunately. She was on a lot of drugs with a couple of syringe drivers. If she seemed to stir or be in pain we would tell them and they would give her an extra injection x
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She was in a coma and totally unaware of what was going on thankfully, this was just her body gasping. Still horrible to watch
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Yup exactly, in the NHS they have very strict protocols

In the hours before an eminent death the Cheyne Stokes respiration occurs. Also called the death rattle. That can also give the impression that a person is gasping for air. A very sad sight to witness. i have it seen with palliative sedations.

 

[Elpis]

I've come to realize I'm weird. I'm still one of the sheeple who likes Kyle and sympathizes with him. My main issue is filming the children. They can't really consent and it just feels wrong. But I know of people, especially on Instagram, who film their children going through cancer, even up till death! Recently a little girl was on her death bed and the camera was there, watching her with the oxygen mask on, knowing there was no hope.

But when an adult wants to document their illness, I'm ok with it, and often I feel like I've learned a lot from watching them. How to think about death, how to plan for my own, if that makes any sense. Or how to think about going through it with a loved one, should the time come, and it comes for many of us. And how to deal with other dire situations, which I've already had to do with my child.

I don't like watching Josh, never did. But Kyle's personality appeals to me. I've always felt the videos were started by Jenny and remained HER focus, and he just went along with it. That may or may not be true, but I find him to be a guy, coping with just about the worst situation you can find yourself in, with courage and compassion.

Doesn't mean I've got anything figured out - just that I find it a touching and compelling story, that I think I'm learning from (like Emily Hayward, and quite a few others). There's a Buddhist practice - contemplate death every day, to ground yourself, to give yourself perspective in this life and not get caught up in trivialities (and most things are). (just my humble opinion and I'm willing too admit I may be not only wrong but perhaps a bit deranged?) But I find watching this (and others like it) to be life-changing, maybe not in a "good" way but in a way that makes me feel less afraid and stronger.

 

[abitworried]

My mum was on a ventilator in an induced coma for 6-7 weeks in 2007 (partly why she wasn't a candidate later on as they knew she wouldn't come off it again), and the stuff she could remember happening in the ICU was incredible! There was a girl who had attempted suicide (and sadly ultimately succeeded) which my mum remembered and later verified with a nurse (no personal info given of course). She remembered a lot of her time in the coma as being peaceful and she knew she wasn't afraid of death after experiencing that, but she also suffered terrible night terrors for the rest of her life. She was an ex nurse herself so I think she was surprised by how it affected her
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It's so traumatic isn't it...she only passed in December 2022 and for months after I definitely had PTSD with flashbacks constantly. She knew she would never be a candidate (you can probably see my comment above explaining why), but when she realised it was the end of the road it was heartbreaking. To make matters worse, my sister was heavily pregnant with her first kid (born a few days later) and that was what my mum was most sad about before she slipped into unconsciousness. She was so sad she never got to meet him. My sister even asked if they would do an emergency section so my mum could meet him but the HDU nurse shut it right down as we all had RSV at this point. Such an awful time. This is like therapy

Such a tragic story I am so sorry you had to go through this.