Gender discussions

[SqualorVictoria]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Extremely rare occurrences? I posted a video that had 70 examples. How many is an acceptable number to happen before women can finally be listened to when a lot of us are saying we would prefer to keep our safe spaces female only?

I'm not going to tell a trans person who identifies as female that they're not a woman , let alone "constantly" as you say. But the bottom line is, they are not the exact same as biological women. Trans women are trans women.

And as for your comments about people having kids, it's not for you to comment on other peoples procreative choices.

 

[Zenchick101]

Extremely rare occurrences? I posted a video that had 70 examples. How many is an acceptable number to happen before women can finally be listened to when a lot of us are saying we would prefer to keep our safe spaces female only?

I'm not going to tell a trans person who identifies as female that they're not a woman , let alone "constantly" as you say. But the bottom line is, they are not the exact same as biological women. Trans women are trans women.

And as for your comments about people having kids, it's not for you to comment on other peoples procreative choices.

agreed

 

[mindlessness]

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

You're right. Womanhood isn't just periods and babies. It's a lived experience from the day you are born - when the dr looks at you and declares "it's a girl!" - until the day you die. I have shared this before, but not sure if you saw it? Worth a read I think.

What is a woman?

Traduction Française Again and again I hear people criticise women generally, and feminists in particular, for not accepting transwomen as “real” women and for “excluding” them. Trans people are op…

thefeministahood.wordpress.com

 

[Zenchick101]

You're right. Womanhood isn't just periods and babies. It's a lived experience from the day you are born - when the dr looks at you and declares "it's a girl!" - until the day you die. I have shared this before, but not sure if you saw it? Worth a read I think.

What is a woman?

Traduction Française Again and again I hear people criticise women generally, and feminists in particular, for not accepting transwomen as “real” women and for “excluding” them. Trans people are op…

thefeministahood.wordpress.com

wow this made me cry a bit. this resonates

wow this made me cry a bit. this resonates so much. It's also interesting hearing about the point of view of a lesbian and their experiences. Since the transmen agenda isn't being pushed really I haven't had to deal with that, there's the fetish straight men have of watching two lesbians together, the "I can make her straight with my fool idea", on top of what women in general face. I don't think you guys are transphobic for not being into transwomen, because wouldn't that make me homophobic for not being attracted to lesbians? if you're a lesbian feel free to share your experiences cause that's ducked up.

 

[BostonFernGreen]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Maybe you could explain something to me?

Why would you choose a concept which is not rooted in material reality to promote rights? And then whenever anyone is forced to counter that it’s not quite that simple, say ‘STOP CONSTANTLY DENYING MY NARRATIVE YOU VIOLENT PHOBE!!!!’

That’s classic gaslighting and there is a serious problem if you’ve got an entire movement based on this. These are people we’re talking about and you are setting them up for failure by encouraging them to be offended by reality. Why would you do that to someone?

My suspicion is that what started off as a symbolic statement (which I completely agree with. I do believe trans women should be seen and counted as they wish to be) has been taken by some as a literal stance.

Here are some occasions when your biological sex matters:

A fertility clinic
An endocrine clinic
A genetics consultation after sudden death in family
Your life expectancy and other predictive health metrics
Your lung capacity
An oncology clinic (some cancers affect one sex disproportionately)

If people keep insisting that trans women are women, and trans women (possibly already vulnerable after dealing with a lifetime of gender dysphoria) hear it on repeat everywhere they go, it’s going to become a triggering experience for them when they are forced to face reality. Note that the examples above are medical/science based, ie it would not be appropriate for them to ignore the reality of biological sex. Are they transphobic? If not, why not? What if they’re frightened of being accused of being because of people like you?

I think I’m more supportive of trans rights than you are because I’m actually thinking through reality and how trans people need to live their lives away from Twitter.

Sorry for the double post but just been thinking about it on my morning walk. I see my responses above are quite combative which I don’t think is helpful either so I’m sorry for that.

I hope most people want the same thing in the end which is a more accepting society in general, less violent crime against women and better rights for marginalised groups.

I am strongly pro trans rights and strongly pro women’s rights. My work puts me in contact with vulnerable women and trans people and I am no less moved by either group. I want good outcomes and lives and opportunities across the board.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Saw this on Twitter from a trans man. He is absolutely spot on here

 

[PoleStar]

@barmj wasn’t it Hilary Swank who won the Oscar for Boys Don’t Cry? Such a good film.

@gigi_93 what does fragile femininity mean? I’ve not really seen any posts about that. If you mean that some women are insecure about the status of the category of women, please say that, it is a completely different thing.

If you’d like, I could signpost you to some stats about what it means to be a woman in the world today and how that is related to TRAs.

Women’s position is fragile. We are not equal to men in almost every metric. Why are you contemptuous of women discussing that?

You're right, it was Hilary Swank - not Natalie Portman. I saw that film when it was first released and it contains one of the most harrowing scenes I've ever seen. Hilary truly deserved her Oscar.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I thought this was worth sharing also

 

[gigi_93]

Extremely rare occurrences? I posted a video that had 70 examples. How many is an acceptable number to happen before women can finally be listened to when a lot of us are saying we would prefer to keep our safe spaces female only?

I'm not going to tell a trans person who identifies as female that they're not a woman , let alone "constantly" as you say. But the bottom line is, they are not the exact same as biological women. Trans women are trans women.

And as for your comments about people having kids, it's not for you to comment on other peoples procreative choices.

We can agree to differ. But if someone chooses to have kids knowing they’ll have a problem with their life choices should they arise, they’re a monster.

Maybe you could explain something to me?

Why would you choose a concept which is not rooted in material reality to promote rights? And then whenever anyone is forced to counter that it’s not quite that simple, say ‘STOP CONSTANTLY DENYING MY NARRATIVE YOU VIOLENT PHOBE!!!!’

That’s classic gaslighting and there is a serious problem if you’ve got an entire movement based on this. These are people we’re talking about and you are setting them up for failure by encouraging them to be offended by reality. Why would you do that to someone?

My suspicion is that what started off as a symbolic statement (which I completely agree with. I do believe trans women should be seen and counted as they wish to be) has been taken by some as a literal stance.

Here are some occasions when your biological sex matters:

A fertility clinic
An endocrine clinic
A genetics consultation after sudden death in family
Your life expectancy and other predictive health metrics
Your lung capacity
An oncology clinic (some cancers affect one sex disproportionately)

If people keep insisting that trans women are women, and trans women (possibly already vulnerable after dealing with a lifetime of gender dysphoria) hear it on repeat everywhere they go, it’s going to become a triggering experience for them when they are forced to face reality. Note that the examples above are medical/science based, ie it would not be appropriate for them to ignore the reality of biological sex. Are they transphobic? If not, why not? What if they’re frightened of being accused of being because of people like you?

I think I’m more supportive of trans rights than you are because I’m actually thinking through reality and how trans people need to live their lives away from Twitter.

Sorry for the double post but just been thinking about it on my morning walk. I see my responses above are quite combative which I don’t think is helpful either so I’m sorry for that.

I hope most people want the same thing in the end which is a more accepting society in general, less violent crime against women and better rights for marginalised groups.

I am strongly pro trans rights and strongly pro women’s rights. My work puts me in contact with vulnerable women and trans people and I am no less moved by either group. I want good outcomes and lives and opportunities across the board.

My work does too. My transphobic comments were literally directed at one or two people as I was reading through the thread (and reactionary I admit, although I’ll never agree with saying trans women aren’t women) and I’ve never said bio sex doesn’t matter. I don’t agree with you saying you’re more supportive than me, it’s not a competition. I’m sure we both do our best with what we believe. You make good points so don’t apologise.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

You've taken what the poster said out of context. Here is what the poster said: "But deep down if I had a kid and it ended up trans of course I’d love my child but I don’t think I’d ever be on board with it.

Gay or lesbian - fine.

But I don’t know I just find trans so bizarre. I always have, I don’t wish harm on them but it’s just odd"

The poster is saying that she would not willingly "trans" her child. That does not make her a monster. If I decided to become a man tomorrow, I can't see my Mum being "on board" with it- that doesn't mean she'd love me any less or that she's a monster, it just means deep down she wouldn't be "on board" with it

 

[LittleMy]

You've taken what the poster said out of context. Here is what the poster said: "But deep down if I had a kid and it ended up trans of course I’d love my child but I don’t think I’d ever be on board with it.

Gay or lesbian - fine.

But I don’t know I just find trans so bizarre. I always have, I don’t wish harm on them but it’s just odd"

The poster is saying that she would not willingly "trans" her child. That does not make her a monster. If I decided to become a man tomorrow, I can't see my Mum being "on board" with it- that doesn't mean she'd love me any less or that she's a monster, it just means deep down she wouldn't be "on board" with it

Was just about to say this. It’s not the same situation, but of a similar point.

I have children with autism. Did I know that they would have autism before I had them? No. Do I fully accept it? Not fully, no. Not when I see the struggles they face because of it and how difficult it makes their lives compared with that of neurotypical children. Does it make me love them any less? Of course not. Should I have not bothered having the children that I love so much just because deep down I can’t fully accept their autism?

ETA: My children will never know that I feel this way because I accept them to the best of my ability and would never tell them about how sometimes I cry at night because of the way things are and how I wish autism wasn’t a part of it all. They are just the feelings I feel when I’m alone with my thoughts; it doesn’t change the reality. I took it as being what the poster meant with regards to having a Trans child. That doesn’t make you a monster, it makes you human.

 

[gigi_93]

No, I absolutely understood the context. Imagine knowing your parent was not on board with the way you choose to identify yourself and finds you “bizarre” and “odd”. That’s so incredibly damaging.

 

[SilentSue]

But if someone chooses to have kids knowing they’ll have a problem with their life choices should they arise, they’re a monster.

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing transphobic or monstrous about preferring my daughter not to be trans. If she's a lesbian, no problem at all. The same if she is bisexual. Or heterosexual. However, if she gravitates towards stereotypically 'masculine' activities and clothes, and is therefore told she is a 'boy' and put on (untested) puberty blockers leading to a lifetime of hormones and medication, then what sort of mother would I be if I condoned that?

I was anorexic as a teenager. If my parents had supported my self-starvation and body dismorphia, they would have been labelled abusive, and rightly so. As it happened, I was offered support and counselling to switch my self-perception and accept my body.

If my daughter comes to me and tells me she feels uncomfortable in her sexed body, the answer is not to change her body, it's to work on why she feels that way. It's to assure her that her female body is a wonderful, normal, useful and acceptable thing. That does not make me a monster.

 

[gigi_93]

At no point did I suggest anyone should rush their child into surgery to become a woman/man? I would not do that either. I’d listen and give them all the help I could. But you do realise some people genuinely do want to transition and it may come to that? So what I’m saying is if it does, and you won’t be “on board” and you’ll find your child “bizarre” and “odd” then you’re a crappy parent and shouldn’t have reproduced.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@gigi_93 your views and name calling are very immature so I will personally be bowing out of any further replies to you

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Not all women have periods but only women can have periods. Not sure how that is hard to understand.

Motherhood, periods, sexual health are massive, massive parts of most womens lives. Even if you dont have kids. You are judged. We are shoved out of jobs because of this, we are told to control our behaviour because of our risk of falling pregnant, we do the most childcare, we do the most emotional labour, we are constantly reminded of the need to be both good mother and good employee and a lot of the time we feel like we dont do either well enough. Men do not generally get that. They dont suffer from the pay gap, selective abortions (did you know there is a deficit of 1m females across the world because people in certain countries do not value female life). We are sent to menstrual huts and told we are 'dirty' we are mutilated, grape, sold. We are sexualised from day dot.

You are being ridiculous. 'Oh well I'm not hungry so there must be no famine in the world' - that's how you sound.

 

[gigi_93]

I’m well aware of all of that thank you. I’ve dealt with plenty that wouldn’t have happened to me if I wasn’t a woman, including DV. Yet I still manage to be welcoming and understanding of trans women and I don’t have my womanhood threatened by their mere existence.

 

[QueenKJ]

This is a really good watch. A transsexual woman talking about the issues of the modern trans ideology. Unbelievably, she herself has been deemed a bigot by trans activists. More voices like this are what's needed, not Twitter zealots who call women "terfs" or "transphobic"

What a good watch this video was thank you for putting it up here

 

[SqualorVictoria]

You didn’t need to let me know, I wouldn’t have missed you

Didn't think you would miss me but I did feel the need to let you know your views are immature, particularly your "monster" comments, despite it being explained rationally and logically to you by several posters.

What a good watch this video was thank you for putting it up here

So glad you like! She's excellent and raises so many valid points.

 

[gigi_93]

Didn't think you would miss me but I did feel the need to let you know your views are immature, particularly your "monster" comments, despite it being explained rationally and logically to you by several posters.



So glad you like! She's excellent and raises so many valid points.

If you think parents not accepting their trans children is ok then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you’re offended because you’re one of them