Mselvista, I'm not trying to be rude but I'm not sure what you want from me at this stage. I like Kristina's video, it made sense to me. She is pro feminist clearly and a strong trans right activists. I'm not saying she is the ultimate authority and of course there will be trans people with opposing views but I'm fully on the side of Kristina. Those are my views too and I fully share her concerns
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That's fine. You've recommended a video.
It's that you twice mentioned Harrison's trans status. If this wasn't to lend credibility to her stance, why was it?
I will watch the video now.
Re what I want from you? Absolutely nothing. But I will comment on your posts if I wish.
What I do not want is for "gender critics" to dominate the debate here. I do not want this forum (and I only really comment on one thread) is to become synonymous with transphobia as Mumsnet now is.
Your views are not obscure. I can read them in uk tabloids and broadsheets from both ends of the political spectrum. Your views are mainstream and, in my opinion, demonise a marginalised vulnerable group of society.
I am no an expert on any of this nor do I claim to be. But "gender critical" claims do not make sense to me logically and do not appear to be borne out by reality. I have no wish to attempt to speak for or instead of trans people on this but I also tecognise that I have the luxury of emotional distance from the subject. I am not a member of the group being attacked. But I see trans people being attacked and I think it is wrong.
I'm not sure if I'm misreading it but I can't see any reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic on the Stonewall screenshot.
I have found the original Danish articles and translated them using Google translate. They're about the building of a women's prison because of the prevalence of sexual assault in Denmark's mixed sex prisons. No mention of trans women (or men), nothing to do with self id (I've skimmed them obviously, I might have missed something).
Hackney's Equality and Cohesion policy dated November 2018 but link on their Equality and Diversity page lists sex as a protected characteristic.
I've already mentioned that I don't think the screenshot you have included says that Stonewall are campaigning to have sex removed as a protected characteristic.
Minister: Kvindefængsel kan løse problem med sexchikane
Kvindelige indsatte bliver ofte chikaneret eller tvunget ud i prostitution, viser undersøgelse.
Snart begynder byggeriet af Danmarks første kvindefængsel
Kvinder er en udsat gruppe i fængslerne, mener Kriminalforsorgen. Nu skal der findes en entreprenør, der kan bygge Danmarks første kvindefængsel.
Equality and diversity overview | Hackney Council
Learn about our work on equality, diversity and inclusion. Check our policies, progress, reporting and how we promotes fairness.
Are you suggesting that there have been incidents and they have been covered up? To protect powerful trans people?
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I don't know where you live but if it's in England, Wales or Northern Ireland it appears unlikely that amendments to the 2004 GRA will happen.
I don't know if that helps reassure you because obviously don't know where you're based.
Take care.
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I'm just saying that incidents which expose systemic failings are often not made public, @Mselvista. It's difficult to say from 5 years of legislation in a country with a population that is less than 10% of the UK whether there have or have not been publicised problems with self-ID.
I have no interest engaging with you any longer because, at your own admission, you are simply skim-reading anything sent and then trying to twist the meaning. I'm tired of energy being spent on a toxic debate which, frankly, detracts from issues women face on a day to day basis.
Back to witching about social media wankers for me, I think.
I have no interest engaging with you any longer because, at your own admission, you are simply skim-reading anything sent and then trying to twist the meaning. I'm tired of energy being spent on a toxic debate which, frankly, detracts from issues women face on a day to day basis.
Back to witching about social media wankers for me, I think.
I agree entirely.
I think we may disagree re where the toxicity originates but
I skim read the two Danish articles I posted.
I did not read all of a dry law gazette article which buried the lede somewhat.
I have tried to find sources for things referenced in the discussion to establish the veracity or otherwise of stuff said here.
The Irish scandals you mentioned were covered up to protect powerful figures in the church. What do they have to do with the experience of cis women in Ireland since the GRA came into force. I do not understand their relevance.
Melvista, as I pointed out in my reply, I was out and about at the time so I fired off a quick response. The twice mention was certainly not deliberate, although I do think it's worthy of mention. I certainly wasn't trying to hammer any point home. As for what you said about the generational thing, does being part of a certain generation not give you permission to an opinion? Should opinions automatically be dismissed as out of touch due to age? Please don't forget it's the previous generations who have fought for legislation of homosexuality and so on.
I have never pretended my views were not mainstream(!) and I'm not even sure why you felt the need to mention that- it's just how I feel. I have explained several times on this thread that I have no issue with trans people and I will happily respect their right to be referred to as she/her. I'm not a monster and don't actively wish for anyone to feel unhappy. This isn't even something I speak up on in my personal life because of how divisive it is. Tattle was a safe space for me to discuss it and my concerns.
Tomorrow is a new week so I'm going to unfollow this thread and like HarderFaster, I'll be going back to Influencers.
Actually no, I'm not done.
@Mselvista I note you state that "What I do not want is for "gender critics" to dominate the debate here. I do not want this forum (and I only really comment on one thread) is to become synonymous with transphobia as Mumsnet now is." You don't get to control the narrative. When women are repeatedly telling you something, maybe listen? Also, on another thread you scolded someone for bringing up the trans debate and told them to "take it up elsewhere, I don't want to see this here". Last night I noticed you then brought it up again on the same thread.
It is *precisely* because of people like you that women are afraid to voice concerns in real life. I am not out spreading my "demonising" views in real life, as I said before I'm too afraid to. On this thread, you have tried to trip posters up constantly.
@Mselvista I note you state that "What I do not want is for "gender critics" to dominate the debate here. I do not want this forum (and I only really comment on one thread) is to become synonymous with transphobia as Mumsnet now is." You don't get to control the narrative. When women are repeatedly telling you something, maybe listen? Also, on another thread you scolded someone for bringing up the trans debate and told them to "take it up elsewhere, I don't want to see this here". Last night I noticed you then brought it up again on the same thread.
It is *precisely* because of people like you that women are afraid to voice concerns in real life. I am not out spreading my "demonising" views in real life, as I said before I'm too afraid to. On this thread, you have tried to trip posters up constantly.
Interestingly I've just seen on Twitter that the body shop has over 60 results for the word "men" but 0 for the word "women". They also have a specific range for men including:
www.thebodyshop.com
"The For Men Maca Root is a collection specifically designed with men in mind. From the energetic face protection to the shave cream and razor relief, most products feature in our bestseller list. It’s time you discover it too!"
www.thebodyshop.com
"It makes sense to treat men's skin with targeted male grooming products. The Body Shop® has developed an extensive range for Men’s skincare specifically designed to help you cleanse, shave and protect. Ingredients include Maca Root, a rich source of skin minerals and nutrients, and community trade Brazil Nut oil."
www.thebodyshop.com
It makes sense to treat men's skin with targeted male grooming products. The Body Shop has developed an extensive range for men’s skin care specifically designed to help you cleanse, shave and protect. Ingredients include maca root, a rich source of skin minerals and nutrients, and Community Trade Brazil Nut Oil.
Weird how they'll be more than happy to use the word men, but won't use the word women when it comes to something that disadvantages women globally in an article that talks about women being disadvantaged globally!
Maca Root For Men | Men Skincare Products | The Body Shop®
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Skincare for Men | Men's Grooming | The Body Shop®
Find men's grooming products like razors, shaving creams, cleansers & other skincare for men here. Shop men's skin care products at The Body Shop®.
Skincare for Men | Men's Grooming | The Body Shop®
Find men's grooming products like razors, shaving creams, cleansers & other skincare for men here. Shop men's skin care products at The Body Shop®.
Weird how they'll be more than happy to use the word men, but won't use the word women when it comes to something that disadvantages women globally in an article that talks about women being disadvantaged globally!
Sorry, what do you mean by people like me?
Have I been abusive? Called anyone names?
It's interesting that you say that, I've had private messages from more than one person saying they daren't get involved in this discussion because of the ferocity of the "gender critical" activists. That they're scared to join in but congratulating me on my comments.
I'm a woman.
There have been comments about wanting to discuss this. I'm discussing it. Perhaps gc feminists want an echo chamber to discuss this stuff with each other. That fair enough. But I can comment as long as I'm not breaching guidelines. Crikey, anyone would think you were trying to silence me for not subscribing to :gender critical" orthodoxy.
16 mentions of "women" in 2020 so far vs 1 of "men". You can count the totals mentions if you like.
https://twitter.com/search?q=from:@thebodyshopuk women&s=09
https://twitter.com/search?q=from:@thebodyshopuk men&s=09
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Ah sorry I meant on their website not on their twitter, but I found out about the website results from their twitter! Interesting about the mentions on Twitter though. Seems inconsistent all round. I imagine they\\ll be updating their site soon anyway to be more inclusive to shavers rather than just men. While they're at it I hope they get rid of the daft gender stereotyping nonsense too with their "manly" scentsSorry, what do you mean by people like me?
Have I been abusive? Called anyone names?
It's interesting that you say that, I've had private messages from more than one person saying they daren't get involved in this discussion because of the ferocity of the "gender critical" activists. That they're scared to join in but congratulating me on my comments.
I'm a woman.
There have been comments about wanting to discuss this. I'm discussing it. Perhaps gc feminists want an echo chamber to discuss this stuff with each other. That fair enough. But I can comment as long as I'm not breaching guidelines. Crikey, anyone would think you were trying to silence me for not subscribing to :gender critical" orthodoxy.
16 mentions of "women" in 2020 so far vs 1 of "men". You can count the totals mentions if you like.
https://twitter.com/search?q=fromthebodyshopuk women&s=09
https://twitter.com/search?q=from
@Mselvista , I do see what @SqualorVictoria is saying. Although I'm sure it's not intended that way, some of your posts have come across (to me and possibly to others) as quite aggressive. You are being very selective about which points you will and won't address, and this one (which you ignored) is actually very valid:
I appreciate that you have strongly-held views about this; many of us do. I'd really appreciate it if we could all try to be civil about it (and I include myself in that). I realise that by merely posting this I am opening myself up to another kicking.
This is true. You were very clear that we should not use influencer threads to discuss these things, and a number of people conceded the point and apologised to you. Then, shortly afterwards, you did exactly that yourself! Can you see how that makes things a little difficult? Likewise, several posters have taken the time to explain their support for trans people, but you persist in equating gender critical feminism with transphobia despite evidence to the contrary. There have been an awful lot of considered responses to you, but for the most part you have responded with insults.
I appreciate that you have strongly-held views about this; many of us do. I'd really appreciate it if we could all try to be civil about it (and I include myself in that). I realise that by merely posting this I am opening myself up to another kicking.
Ah, I see, I misread your post.
The 64 results when you search for "men" on the Body Shop site appear to be products "suitable for men " not all of them mention men in their name or description or come under the section "men's grooming products". Presumably deemed suitable for both sexes so come up as recommendations for this reason.
Is this sexist and outmoded- yes. Is it an effective way to increase sales - I assume so. Has it got anything to with trans people - not as far as I can tell.
Incidently this page mentions the word "women" 26 times. It doesn't come up on search results for "women".
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I clarified that in relation to C Hirons when I said "this" I was referring to her comments post JKR's blogpost.
I have not been aggressive.
I have not used any insults.
I have been civil.
Replying to comments is not "a kicking".
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Ok, I can see there's no getting through to you.
OK (there is a Woman's Place article that lists more evidence but you probably wouldn't trust the source) but they do campaign for the removal of sex exemptions. I believe the Hackney screenshot was from its jobs page in 2019 so likely gone now anyway. Many companies are Stonewall Diversity Champions, they have a lot of influence.
You were sent the article about the male sex offender being able to self ID into a woman's prison, you've no doubt heard of the Karen White case. You seem to be asking for evidence as if it's only a problem once they actually assault someone, as if it wouldn't be psychologically damaging enough for vulnerable female prisoners to be locked in with these violent men. There are lots of men that aren't safe in prison (gay men, men of colour, vulnerable men), they are all adequately managed in the male estate not just put in with the women. In both these cases there were risk assessments, but as the system is inherently sexist, women's safety is not prioritised and Karen White still grape his inmates. (In my opinion, "no male sex offenders in women's prisons" is a good line to draw.)
I've attached a couple of tweets I came across yesterday, just tweets I know but here is an interesting article: https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/1...-transgender-guide-scrapped-girls-court-case/
My intention with these and the Danish article is to show that these policies are harmful to women and girls, I'm not looking for evidence to try and prove that trans people are more dangerous as I don't believe that's true.
If by saying these views are mainstream you mean most people are against self ID then I agree. But we're probably all here talking about this now because of the furore caused by JKR's comments. How many high profile people stood up for her? I could only see journalists. Did you also notice that all the headlines were "JKR receives backlash for trabsphobic comments" not "JKR receives abuse from activists after thoughtful essay".
Attachments
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Reports I've read stated that in the consultation 70% supported self id.
What is your assertion that the majority are against it based on?
When I say "gender critical" views are mainstream I mean that they are published in the Daily Mail, the Times and the Guardian. Can you name a mainstream commentator countering the "gender critical" narrative with a regular column or who is regularly published in a national newspaper. I can't think of one.
Apologies, Melvista and thanks for clearing up that you are a woman. That being said, I still stick by my original comment of "people like you". Unlike say, periods, being dismissive and cherry picking in debates is something both sexes can do, hence why I say "people like you". People like you try to make us feel like monsters for simply believing that a man with a pen will never be the exact same as a woman. Transphobe, terf, etcSorry, what do you mean by people like me?
Have I been abusive? Called anyone names?
It's interesting that you say that, I've had private messages from more than one person saying they daren't get involved in this discussion because of the ferocity of the "gender critical" activists. That they're scared to join in but congratulating me on my comments.
I'm a woman.
There have been comments about wanting to discuss this. I'm discussing it. Perhaps gc feminists want an echo chamber to discuss this stuff with each other. That fair enough. But I can comment as long as I'm not breaching guidelines. Crikey, anyone would think you were trying to silence me for not subscribing to :gender critical" orthodoxy.
16 mentions of "women" in 2020 so far vs 1 of "men". You can count the totals mentions if you like.
https://twitter.com/search?q=from
https://twitter.com/search?q=from
You asked people for links and when one poster took the time to reply with a long list of links you asked her for a TLDR version. You have cherry picked what to respond to and ignored other points. You are deliberately trying to trip people up and catch them out.
I'm still not sure why it's okay for you to scold others on an influencer thread and tell people to go elsewhere but then bring it up again yourself. Even after people apologised to you
I agree. There’s being open to debate and then there’s only being interested in what you have to contribute yourself.
Also about the other thread and telling people what/what not to post; that’s modding, and you can report it. We’re all here to share our views.
I can not reply to every point made. I do have other things to do.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.
I don't know what you're apologising for here.
Well you pointed out "I'm a woman" so I was simply apologising for any confusion. Again, it was you who felt the need to bring it up and clarify it
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