Gender Discussions #4

[Inforapenny]

I have a question for you all, do you think I'm trans phobic for thinking this, I'm genuinely curious.

So I was speaking to my non binary friend the other day, and I was telling them about someone I saw on Twitter who uses he/him pronouns calling themselves a "les". I said to my non binary friend, I don't really understand why that person would want to call themselves a les (I am one too btw even though it has no relevance) as they identify as he. A les is a female attracted to females right? Like for me, I wouldn't mind dating a trans woman, or someone with a feminine body type as that's what I'm obvs attracted to. But I couldn't say "I'm in a les relationship" with someone who identifies as he, or am I being dumb? Cause that person is saying they feel like a man. I'd be in a straight relationship then? Regardless of what is in their pants?

Anyway my friend said that's kind of offensive for you to say lesbians cant be he/him but I said well I'm just confused, cause if they feel like a he/him then it would suggest being attracted to a female is a heterosexual feeling right? I apologised to them I said I'm sorry I feel awful now but they were like it's okay just know in future a les isnt always a woman.

I was gonna ask this on Twitter but know I would be raked over the coals for it.

Nah.
To be honest I automatically assume anyone calling themselves non binary will be offended on a daily basis. These types seems to like being offended and people having to constantly apologise. However I've never been friends with a 'non binary' person so I may be mistaken.
Also what makes a person who calls themselves non binary and expert on trans issues?

 

[rosemarina]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I’ve come off it (deactivated my account) so I am not constantly seeing the stuff as it was making me really cross, but I’ll still hop on there to read articles posted here. I guess places like twitter means discussions and ideas are amplified and you can now essentially hound any celebs, writers and companies etc if they say something that doesn’t match what you think. It’s definitely an echo chamber. Back in the day if you wanted to complain you’d have to write to a PO Box and never hear back. Now Twitter is a witch hunt.


I wish there was an eye-roll emoji here. Just waiting for the International Women’s Day mailings in March to start coming through with this kind of phrasing.

I’ve already been pegged as a bit of a TERF by the younger women in our “gender” (I know) network at work because I objected to a TiM speaker being the main event on IWD. Fortunately somebody else spoke up too, but JFC.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Nah.
To be honest I automatically assume anyone calling themselves non binary will be offended on a daily basis. These types seems to like being offended and people having to constantly apologise. However I've never been friends with a 'non binary' person so I may be mistaken.
Also what makes a person who calls themselves non binary and expert on trans issues?

You're not mistaken. There are many trans people who one can have a reasonable conversation with but for me, non binary just indicates that I'm going to be walking on eggshells the entire time for fear of saying the wrong thing.

And while I understand trans, I do not understand non binary.

 

[CosmicCreepers]

That's absolutely ridiculous. No offense to your friend, but whatever one wants to call themselves they will always be male or female. If you found Eliot/Ellen Page attractive, to normal people you'd still be a les because though she identifies as something else her physical body not to mention her sex is still that of a female. That argument makes no sense, if I see an attractive man walking down the street I'm going to find him attractive no matter what he identifies as simply because his appearance tells me he's of the opposite sex and my type(so far haven't seen a FTM who passes).

Yeah I used to have a crush on Elliott when he was Ellen, now he is more masculine I obvs am not attracted to him as he appears male to me. I'd probably be screamed at for that though, but people aren't gonna stop having preferences. My other friend who is a straight woman got told shes transphobic once as she wouldn't feel comfortable dating a FTM trans person as she doesn't like female anatomy. Sigh.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

It is utterly absurd that adults are policing other adults for being attracted or not attracted to certain adults!

 

[judgejohndeed]

GCAN Archive

Gender Critical Academia Network Archive In 2021, an anonymous group of British female academics invited testimony from gender critical staff and students. The responses are archived below as a rec…

www.gcacademianetwork.org

Really interesting page here for anyone in academia or even students!

 

[jewelkitty]

Yeah I used to have a crush on Elliott when he was Ellen, now he is more masculine I obvs am not attracted to him as he appears male to me. I'd probably be screamed at for that though, but people aren't gonna stop having preferences. My other friend who is a straight woman got told shes transphobic once as she wouldn't feel comfortable dating a FTM trans person as she doesn't like female anatomy. Sigh.

You really can't win with these people. If you're a les and fancied Ellen but not Elliot, you're transphobic, but if you're a les and fancy Elliot you're still transphobic because you don't see them as a man, right?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

And I am never going to be attracted to a trans man, either pre or post op, no matter how lovely they are.

 

[Inforapenny]

There is a 2 part podcast episode on trans activists on the Guardian 'Today in focus'
I don't want to listen but I am just starting to.
It'll probably get me mad

 

[holliebollie]

Elliot Page is just Ellen Page with a cap on. Surely you finding her/him attractive is more about your cap preferences?

I think my uni has just lost the plot a bit. It’s like we aren’t allowed to say girl or boy when referring to children (that we will work with!) One woman on the course (who is lovely!) said, isn’t having head girl and head boy too binary I said, surely it’s so there’s fair representation between the sexes? Girls are less likely to nominate themselves anyway. Not fair to have two head boys or two head girls. What’s the alternative? A third head non sexed person?! Honestly.

 

[Inforapenny]

I've now listened to part 1.
The only thing that made me really angry was the bloody journalist refering to women as 'cis' which I find incredibly derogatory and typical of the Guardian.
The interview starts with Stephen Wittle FtoM who is really fascinating and makes some valid points.
It's good to see that trans people get recognition and the law is being put in place to not be discriminate against trans people. Trans people are still struggling in many areas and as a woman I feel such empathy for those who have been shat on my society.
The next person to be interviewed is a woman who talks about issues of safe guarding women and our spaces. Now this is where I struggle. The woman seems to be pro self id. Yet again the focus is on women relinquishing what little spaces we have. Why can't the trans community make their own spaces? Why does the argument always come down to women having to be a door mat and accept everything?

What I realise is that so many discussions fail to acknowledge the bizarre, dangerous and inflammatory TRAs that have such a detrimental effect on women because these are being peddled by men who hate women. It is these men who are the issue not women and not necessarily many trans people either. I wish we could come together as women and trans to help each other out. But the TRAs have ensured we're divided. Trans women who genuinely transition and simply want to be happy is not the issue.

and the podcast assumes that if you don't accept trans women as women you're transphobic or full of hatred. This is simply not true. I do not believe men can ever be a woman, this is delusional but doesn't mean I hate anyone trans. They are trans and their experience will not be the same as a biological woman.

Ps I get the feeling no one actually believes non binary is a thing

 

[CosmicCreepers]

And I am never going to be attracted to a trans man, either pre or post op, no matter how lovely they are.

My friend feels the same way. I personally have found some trans women attractive, even after finding out they were trans. But I know that not everyone feels that way, and it's not transphobic to not be attracted to someone who is trans. I'm slightly overweight and wouldn't think someone was being large phobic if they rejected me.

My non binary friend who I mentioned I've known since secondary school, when they were known as she. They only came out last year and I had lived with them for a year at that point. I was surprised but as they are my friend, I accepted it. Slowly they seem to have developed a lot more mental health problems, and get very upset if they are called by their old name or pronouns. I'm not sure really what would help them overcome it.

Elliot Page is just Ellen Page with a cap on. Surely you finding her/him attractive is more about your cap preferences?

I think my uni has just lost the plot a bit. It’s like we aren’t allowed to say girl or boy when referring to children (that we will work with!) One woman on the course (who is lovely!) said, isn’t having head girl and head boy too binary I said, surely it’s so there’s fair representation between the sexes? Girls are less likely to nominate themselves anyway. Not fair to have two head boys or two head girls. What’s the alternative? A third head non sexed person?! Honestly.

Oh my uni in the past handed out pronoun badges during a freshers welcome event...I think a lot of people were weirded out by it including staff, it didnt happen again.

 

[Kimeric]

And I am never going to be attracted to a trans man, either pre or post op, no matter how lovely they are.

Neither will gay men.

 

[Inforapenny]

You sound like a fantastic friend and it must be sad to see your friend struggling with mental health ....and I don't doubt the links between non binary and serious mental health illness. Ellen/Elliot page I think has possibly been a lost soul for a long time. I feel for her ex wife.

Oh the bleeping pronoun police. As Ive said earlier I work at a uni and the bloody pronouns ppl sign off with come on Jane we all know you're a 50 year old woman.

Neither will gay men.

bleeping hell imagine going to a sex party (isn't that just an orgy?) And because no one wants to bag you you want to end things. And these people aren't mentally ill

 

[judgejohndeed]

Neither will gay men.

I find this really sad tbh. It’s not right for someone to be humiliated like that. Problem is, this is what happens when some people tell you that your feelings are going to be recognised as reality by everyone else. Can’t end well for anyone.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

FTM have been sold the biggest lie. It seems that some women will accept TiM as one of them but it seems rare that TiFs will be accepted as men. And gay men are not going to have any truck with them

 

[holliebollie]

Pronoun badges?!? Bloooooody hell. It’s bad enough that people are putting pronouns into email names, purely to appease NB people who will use they/them. ‘It shows you’re an ally!’ I don’t have to add my sex to my name to show I believe in human rights.
Worse, is when people have it on their zoom and you can SEE them! Thanks Thomas, 45 year old man, for writing he/him after your name or I might have referred to you as ‘she’ while talking about you behind your back later. No one even uses pronouns while speaking TO someone so it’s literally just to highlight that someone identifies as NB, surely?
I’m not writing ‘... bi’ after my name to make bisexuals feel like they can be open about it, why would I EVER do it for something that’s not even a real thing?

 

[jewelkitty]

TRAs are just the new "but what about men?!?"




How tf TRAs can abuse women speaking out about FGM and attempt to make it all about them. Just feck off!!!!

 

[Zenchick101]

Yeah I used to have a crush on Elliott when he was Ellen, now he is more masculine I obvs am not attracted to him as he appears male to me. I'd probably be screamed at for that though, but people aren't gonna stop having preferences. My other friend who is a straight woman got told shes transphobic once as she wouldn't feel comfortable dating a FTM trans person as she doesn't like female anatomy. Sigh.

It's crazy isn't it? But I think you know what I meant, preferences vary for anyone within a set group but you'll always be attracted to people of that group. There's no respect for other people's boundaries nowadays.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

If we're at a point where lesbians can be men, then I'm just confused about if words have any meaning anymore.

I'm asexual. It's like, if someone hypersexual who you knew had the biggest sexual appetite in your friend group came out and started claiming to be asexual. If anyone can be asexual, then the term becomes meaningless and useless. And I'd quite like to use the word to signal to people that if they want to date me, it's not going to involve certain activities they might see as rather important.