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EmeraldStone

Active member
A few more examples of #this never happens


Killer line from the panel of Judges -

“Paradoxically, we find ourselves facing a scenario contrary to what was anticipated."

FFS you really did not think putting a longterm abuser of women in prison with other women would result in anything like this happening?

Response from the rapist's legal rep

Last Tuesday, Fernández’s legal representative, Alfonsina Muñiz told Cadena 3 that the rape and pregnancy was not “a question of gender” and that “the same thing happens in the men’s prison.”

Err no it doesn't actually because guess what, men can't get pregnant, or have I somehow missed all of the self declared FTM prisoners chomping at the bit to be housed in male prisons?

Also very concerning is the notion that Argentina will dissolve the government department responsible for addressing violence against women, due to austerity measures, but I bet they will still be finding money to support trans rights though!
 
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India Willoughby is complaining on X about the proposed puberty blockers drug trial; he says that they are recognised world wide to be safe and reversible. If that is the case, the trial will show that. My suspicion is that he knows they are neither safe nor entirely reversible.
 
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klarakluckbag

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People like the guy you had a spat with represent the cosy, hyper privileged contingent that has led this madness to get this far. They live in such a bien pensant bubble, all their friends with degrees or postgrads, they genuinely don't understand how non-privileged people live.

There's a cultural barrier as well as a language one. I come from a culture (small island Greek & Roma) where gynaecological health is not discussed openly. To an extent it is in 'women's spaces' particularly aorund childbirth and postpartum but overall I would say that lots of gynae issues are pretty taboo even within families. I was 24 and had had my first child before I fully understood what and where my clitoris was. I'd previously tried to ask my grandmother about it and got a full dramatic face slap for my troubles lol I have immigrant friends, especially from rural Pakistani, South Indian and Albanian cultures, who have the same experiences.

Research has also convincingly demonstrated that immigrant women with a relatively low level of gynaecological education, poor English and poor educational attainment are at the highest risk for miscarriage, pre-eclampsia, traumatic births and injury to mother or child during childbirth, postpartum violence from the spouse, etc etc.

So basically the NHS is taking a cohort of women that they KNOW are already higher risk for a whole bunch of things and confusing/excluding them more.

All so Fweddie McConnell doesn't cwy
I was on yet another NHS staff training day earlier this week. We had a long presentation about how there has been a marked increase in the number of maternal deaths, of birth trauma, of 3rd and 4th degree tears, and of postpartum haemorrhage. Suzanne Moore is absolutely right, women's healthcare is right at the back of the queue, while the managers and the DEI muppets wring their hands over who is going to be offended by single-sex bathrooms.
I must admit, after hearing the words "birthing people" one too many times, I did mutter under my breath "women", accompanied by a massive eyeroll 😡
 
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maytoseptember

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TLDR: As a society we currently take better care of DOGS than we do of MENTALLY VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

I mean. Fuck me.
And the exact same argument applies to surrogacy. We don’t remove puppies or kittens from their mothers for, what, 8 weeks minimum? But a human baby can be taken from its mother the moment it exits her body to be handed on to strangers.

And this is considered best practice because we think babies are little blank slates that will imprint on the first person who holds them, like a duckling or a penguin chick or something.
 
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lcbitalia96

Active member
There is a forth: young women whose parents tried very hard not to gender code their clothing and toys when they were little. Then because they don't have the coding that their peers have they can't relate and see themselves as "other". Whereas in the past they would've just felt like a bit of an outsider and got on with it, access to the internet and lockdown led them down the gender path.

I know because this is my daughter. Very hard not to blame myself. We were doing what we thought was right 😥
Please don't feel bad OP, you have done a wonderful job.
I am not a parent but I am a now (late) 20 year old and I grew up with parents who provided no gender code whatsoever, and I am so very grateful. Naturally, I followed a lot of what my older brother did (play football, climb trees etc), and not so much my older sister, mostly due to a large age gap. Across my life this has barely faltered, yes I do enjoy 'girly' things but I still play and watch football and enjoy a whole host of 'masculine' hobbies (watching the Champions League as I type!). I am very comfortable with my gender and, yes, maybe when I was in primary school I felt a bit different from my female peers, but I spent time with like-minded girls and matured appropriately. In fact, now being older and around other female footballers who also love the sport but live completely ordinary lives as women, I realised that these 'non-confirming behaviours' are much more common than how I remember feeling when I was little. I think someone who responded early mentioned this earlier but I wholeheartedly blame the Internet and social contagion. I can guarantee that if I grew up now, I likely would've attached a non-binary label as a result of my behaviour (as this is what I would've been led to believe). My advice would be to continue organically breaking down gender stereotypes & continue teaching her that you can still be a female and like male things/present with more masculine behaviours. As with most teenagers, I would imagine most who identify as NB will revert back to their original 'gender'. I work with young people and seeing this more and more now. And, if you can, try to get her away from the Internet. Outside, into extra curriculars/clubs (albeit some are captured now), a place away from virtual world where she can enmesh with other peers who have similar interests and will allow her to build confidence. Sending positive vibes to you 💕
 
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Dinate

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So, I've finally got the time to do a summary of the 'What Is A Woman?' case held at the Supreme Court (SC) this past week. I apologise in advance for the summary being quite long: it was two full days of legal arguments and questions, so very little waffle. I will still miss out a lot, so I'll be happy to clarify or add stuff if you have questions.

First of, what and why was there a case? The Scottish government passed legislation to try to improve the representation of women on public sector boards. They initially defined 'women' to include those living as women or those intending to change their gender i.e. they included men self-identifying as women. Women for Scotland (WFS) successful sued against this definition of women so the Scottish government tried again, this time defining women to include transgender women with a GRC. Specifically, and importantly, they said that the definition of 'women; was the same as in the Equalities Act (EA). WS again sued, but lost the case. So the question before the SC is whether or not the definition of a woman includes transwomen with a GRC.

I think it's been said on here that Amnesty supported the SG position, saying that gender recognition is a human right (no mention of women's rights of course:rolleyes:).

The SG argument in court is that anyone with a GRC is a woman because the GRC Act states that anyone with a GRC is 'a woman for all purposes'. WFS argue that sex is an immutable biological fact and where the EA and other legislation use the word 'sex', they mean the word to be used in its ordinary sense and that the court should look at biological reality and not legal fantasies.

During the first day of the hearing, it really felt as if the judges were still considering transgender women to be a very small minority of people who would have or were planning to have surgery. They seemed to have an image of transgender women who actually pass as women. It was interesting to see them realise that wasn't the case. They were particularly interested to understand what the 'living as a woman' requirement in the GRC act entailed. Indeed, at one point the SG lawyer promised to let us all know what this 'living as a woman' meant after lunch. Many of of waited with bated breath so that we could make sure that we too were living appropriately as a woman. Sadly, we are none the wiser, as said lawyer returned after lunch and said that the she didn't have the answer. So lads, we'll all just have to bumble along in the hope that we are just about managing to live as women. I would suggest bright red lipstick, heels and fishnet stockings as a bare minimum......:D

:D
Anyhow, on a more serious note. The SG lawyer was compelled to state that transgender women without a GRC are most definitely not women. She had no choice. The SC judges were already surprised that the requirement for a GRC is pretty much just wanting one. One problem that arises from the SG position is that it is an offence to ask someone if they have a GRC, or to reveal that fact to a third party. Again, I think that this was put in the legislation because they were thinking of someone who has had surgery and passes for a woman, and then someone revealing that they were a biological man. In reality, the problem is that if you can't ask if someone has a GRC, then how can you ensure that you don't discriminate against them if they are now to be treated as a woman for example.

To give an example: if you have two TiM, one with a GRC and the other without, who want to gain entry into a women's refuge, then according to the SG, the refuge would be obliged to admit the TiM with a GRC, but not the other. However, how does the refuge know that the first person has a GRC if you're not allowed to ask? The SG said that you can ask to see their birth certificate. The SC judges suggested that that might not be practical. Not to mention that asking to see the birth certificate would really be a roundabout way for asking if they have a GRC, so conceivably the TiM might object. Secondly, if you then admit the TiM into the refuge because you've seen their GRC, you are then not allowed to tell anyone else within the refuge why you have allowed them in. So, other women will just see a TiM amd not understand why this person has been allowed to enter a women's safe space.

On the question of lebians dating associations, the SG lawyer said that yes, lesbian associations of over 25 members would not be allowed to refuse entry to TiMs with GRC, as if they are attracted to women, they are now lesbians, so have to be admitted.....She pretty much said that the lesbains didn't have to engage with the TiM and that the TiM would just be lesbains who the other lesbians weren''t attracted to. Rather like if a lesbian isn't attracted to lesbians with red hair...One judge asked whether or not that had a rather 'chilling effect' for lesbians. The SG lawyer also suggested that the lesbians could reconvene as a gender critical group of lesbians and use that as a way of refusing entry to TiM with GRCs. At this point, it al became a bit meta because she referenced the Maya Forstater ruling on gender critical beliefs - Maya was sitting in the court behind her and gave a wide smile at that intervention.:D So lesbians can't meet as lesbians who are women attracted to women, they have to meet as women who are attracted to women with gender critical beliefs. No-one asked what do you do if the
 
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moldwarp

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I mentioned on an earlier thread that a friend in the Met got called out to a fracas involving what they thought was 6 Men, it turned out it was 5 Men and a TiF. When push came to shove and they had to perform body searches the TiF opted for a Female to carry out her search.
I feel like a lot of trans identified people remember their natal sex when it suits them tho. Like goddess forbid but if we do have WW3 and say all UK men between 17 and 55 were conscripted, I severely doubt that TIFs would be queuing up outside the army offices with their blue buzzcut and 'manly' hoodie lol

Speaking of which on a lighter note I once read a thread on Reddit AITA where a woman engaged to be married was in a quandary because her hen do was women only but her best friend from high school, a TIF who was very vocal about being a real and manly dood, was upset because she wasn't invited to said hen do. Like girl you said you were a man. Consequences!
 
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Perspicacia Tick

Chatty Member
The amount of comments 'He's not doing anything illegal!' and 'Maybe he has a condition that makes him behave that way'

Give. Me. Fucking. Strength.

No one said he was doing anything illegal. He's clearly being a bullying dickhead and trying to intimidate those women.

It's not women's jobs to figure what cOnDiTiOn a man has that makes him behave like this and accommodate him. If he's incapable of behaving in an acceptable way in public then maybe HE should modify HIS behaviour and STAY AT HOME until he can do this. Fuck him and fuck the men and women defending him.
His condition is called a penis. That's what makes him act like that.
 
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moldwarp

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@Dinate wow that shit about male primogeniture is wild! Really shows in stark plain daylight how misogynistic and patriarchal the whole legislation is. And the unforeseen consequences for men with lesbian dating sites. WOW. This is why I think even if FWS don't succeed in this law suit, the legislature will end up being changed anyway because this whole case has shown how wild and plain STUPID the law was in the first place!

@CarmenGhia yes I think you are absolutely spot on with trauma. I also think the TIFs have a hugely reductive stereotype of gay men that verges on homophobia...they seem to expect gay men to be demisexual, romantic feminine men who are basically sort of the same as women. And it's bullshit. They might be gay but they're still men. I once read a brilliant book about the early AIDS crisis by the gay activist Randy Shilts (Its called And the Band Played On if anyone's interested, can't recommend highly enough, a really eye opening and meticulously researched piece of social history) and he was writing about gay men and promiscuity and he made the point that gay men tend towards promiscuity not because they're gay, but because they're MEN. Straight men would be equally promiscuous if they could find enough women willing to put out at the same frequency but they can't because women tend to have lower sex drives and to be pickier when selecting sexual partners. Also men tend more towards aggression anyway (because testosterone is one helluva drug) and gay sex reflects that. So, yeah, that's a roundabout way of saying that these trans identified, traumatised young women are not only espousing a view of gay men that is totally and utterly reductive, but they're also potentially exposing themselves to more sexual trauma by getting themselves in situations they're not mentally or physically equipped to handle.

And also tbh if I was a young gay dude looking forward to a night of party n play at a bath house, I'd be mega pissed off to see a girl there. Men deserve their single sex spaces as much as women do.
 
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It’s quite fascinating really, that people think going all in on a drag, sexualised, queer aesthetic is somehow original and daring.

It’s predictable and pedestrian as can be right now. It is the voice of The Man, the patriarchy or whatever, if we’re using any kind of social analysis of whats happening, then it’s hyper individualistic, capitalist exploitation coopting human experience to flog people cars they don’t need and it tickles me absolutely pink that gormless idiots think that this is somehow subversive and ground breaking.

They’re a rainbow edition of David Brent, thinking playing the guitar and describing a product as sexy is edgy. Fucking TRAGIC.

Its fascinating how gender identity ideology is so tied to market forces- an identity has become something that you can buy. Why should we be surprised when it’s also used to sell?
 
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Tea_and_Biscuits

Well-known member
Just got back visiting Afflecks in Manchester. It's an indoor alternative market, and a bit of a Mancunian institute.
I've been going there since the late 80s as it's an interesting mix of alternative and second hand clothing, quirky gifts, crystals, incense and comics/graphic novels.
It's been nearly a year since I last went but the whole place seems to have been taken over by gender woo woo now. There's a whole shop with various bits of merch (ie tat) with various different gender flags on but even the usual shops seem to have an obligatory 'save trans kids' or 'Trans rights are Human rights' slogan printed on something.
The other thing I noticed was there were a lot of 'humourous' neurodiverse themed clothing, some of which seemed a bit odd to me. I'm not autistic but I'm not convinced someone who was would want a sweatshirt that reads 'All the women love my autistic swag' ?

It's been already discussed but I really think the alt scene is now all about which gender(s) you identify as or what type of neurodiversity you have, rather than whether you identify as emo/punk/goth/rocker/indie kid/skaterboi etc...
 
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Funny_bunny

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The whole comparison between denying puberty blockers and Nazi like behaviour puzzles me as who was it that infamously carried out grotesque human experiments? Thats what gender reaffirming care reminds me of. The grotesque mutilating surgery that does nothing but cause damage, and puberty blockers and cross sex hormones that do long term harm. I find anyone that promotes these things on vulnerable, confused teens and children very suspect. Why on earth would you want to condemn anyone to being a life long patient with multiple health issues. How is any of it even legal?
 
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Vanelope

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Pretty much - I used to think live and let live what’s the harm be nice and now I’m full on hardcore no men in women’s spaces ever for any reason. I also naively thought they wouldn’t be trying to make women unsafe or uncomfortable. Of course now I know better.

I think a big turning point for me was when they went after the kids.
 
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moldwarp

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I've probably posted this article on an earlier thread ...

It's so, so true though. I've led a colourful life, been inpatient in NHS psychiatric units, lived on a rough as fuck estate, now own my own little flat in a working class but safe, family neighbourhood. I can absolutely say hand on heart that vulnerability and poverty make a person a MAGNET for freaks, weirdos and predators because freaks, weirdos and predators are brilliant at sniffing out the vulnerable. Plus, predators often, for one reason or another, are in receipt of state benefits and/or are well enmeshed in the mental health / criminal 'justice' system, so you're always bumping into the fuckers.

@petitspois please don't give Mary Beard a pass, yeah sex and gender has been presented differently throughout the ages but the Romans fucking KNEW the difference between men and women. Yeah yeah the emperors Caligula and Elagabalus cross dressed and guess what, their advisers, senators and the populace at large thought they were fucking weird and creepy. The Roman-era historian Suetonius spends ages talking about how sexually perverted some of the emperors were and believe me, he wasn't presenting them as 'stunning n brave'. More 'perverted n depraved'.

Beard basically swerved the topic in an interview and wrung her hands about the hEaT oF tHe dEbAtE and frankly that caused me to realise that her supposedly great intellect ain't worth SHIT if she lacks the insight or the bravery to speak the facts.
 
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moldwarp

VIP Member
It's all experimental so I'd say the doctors don't fully understand the dangers - or are wilfully ignorant to them. I've read so many pieces from transpeople saying their surgeries were botched because there were complications that weren't anticipated beforehand. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the coming years, the lawsuits will start coming thick and fast.
I think it's got to be wilful ignorance. I think anyone with a medical degree is going to at least be aware of the followig:

1. That puberty blockers prevent crucial brain development and bone strengthening...
2. ....as proven in a successful class action in the US a few years ago by women who'd been given PBs due to precocious puberty and all ended up with chronic health conditions and disabilities because of them
3. That you should never surgically remove a healthy body part (this is, like, Surgery 101)
4. That testosterone in women will cause uterine and vaginal atrophy leading to loads of other problems
5. That you should try to avoid performing hysterectomy unless absolutely necessary because of the long term side effects
6. That the male urethra is longer than the female urethra therefore you cannot 'hook up' a female urethra to a neophallus...
7...meaning that someone with a neophallus is going to get recurrent UTIs which will destroy the kidneys
8. That entirely defleshing a woman's arm is going to lead to her becoming disabled in that hand and arm
9. That using part of the colon to create a 'neovagina' is going to lead to constant bacterial and fungal infection
10. Hell, that splitting a man's penis, inverting it and creating a pocket out of it is going to result in bacterial and fungal infection

Like you don't need special training in transgender surgeries to know these things they're basic anatomical facts that a first year med student knows...

...and most importantly...

Like Hippocrates said: "FIRST, DO NO HARM."
 
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Vanelope

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Women have to stop being scared of being called transphobic. It’s a made up word that doesn’t mean anything.
 
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Vanelope

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JKR (Queen) will never have to do some sort of u turn or roundabout hedging apology on this. The tide is turning and India’s bewailing and screeching is a big part of peaking people so well done him. Can’t wait for Tennant to have to eat his words if he wants to keep working…
 
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usefullyuseless

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Kids nowadays obviously follow the #bekind mantra because in my day anyone pretending they were a cat in school would have been bullied ta fuck 😂
 
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petitspois

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I’ve complained about that interview, it was a disgusting example of bias made even more exasperating on Woman’s Hour.
 
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