Gender Discussion #74

[The Wicked Lady]

I agree with the sentiment that the feminists of the '70s wanted us to be able to 'have it all' as in career and family etc. The sad reality is that we have ended up 'doing it all', trying to balance work, with child care and domestic drudgery. It makes me wonder if they had ever met a bloke.
I suddenly remembered the phrase 'male chauvinist pig', which I haven't heard for years and looked up the dictionary definition of chauvinist:
a person displaying excessive or prejudiced support for their own cause or group, in particular a man prejudiced against women.
For the record, I like men and have a lot of male friends, but I don't need to tell anyone on this thread that there is a battle being fought in which words seem to be the most important weapons.
Is chauvinist a useful response to being called transphobic?

 

[petitspois]

I agree with all your points. I have mentioned before that I went down a rabbit hole recently and ended up on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_conflict and found it fascinating. A very basic summary = male and female animals and insects are in competition. Sex and reproduction harms females and benefits males.

Obviously more simple if you're a rabbit for example where the boy bunny shags and impregnates then runs off leaving the female with (potential) sex injuries, potential death in childbirth then a period looking after the offspring which limits her ability to look after herself. The same is true of humans isn't it? control over our reproduction is everything.

 

[maytoseptember]

Obviously more simple if you're a rabbit for example where the boy bunny shags and impregnates then runs off leaving the female with (potential) sex injuries, potential death in childbirth then a period looking after the offspring which limits her ability to look after herself. The same is true of humans isn't it? control over our reproduction is everything.

Yes. The fact that pregnancy is life-threatening and life-altering (I also want to say life-limiting but not as in terminal illness, but having children to care for prevents us from being 100% free and autonomous) is the cornerstone of why females are oppressed on the basis of our sex.

It’s also the same reason why men can and do duck off into the sunset after impregnating a woman, or leave a woman when the kids are older with zero care or drive to carry on looking after them. They are just built different.

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

I don’t think I’m disagreeing and I’m not sure I said it quite right. I don’t think we can have proper choice without knowledge and our knowledge of women’s health is woefully inadequate as men were considered default humans for medical education for centuries and women were men with extra internals…
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Yeah that wasn’t what I meant at all. Sorry. Women are valuable as they are whether or not they choose to have kids. It’s my perception of what society thinks.

The problem is that many people confuse EQUAL TO as THE SAME AS.

Women are equal to men - they aren't the same. Having equal value doesn't mean we are identical in every way. Of course we aren't - otherwise we'd just all be "people", without any sex differences at all*, and we wouldn't have this tit to cope with.

*And presumably propagating by fission, like amoebae.
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That’s really interesting and I agree. I’m not sure the impetus to be ball-busting career women and just like men came entirely from women though?

I mean ultimately, the state benefits from encouraging mothers into work because they can tax us, tax the childcare workers who care for the children, tax the cleaners who clean our houses etc etc. It’s like the whole business of traditional female roles has become a business and been totally outsourced, which the Government wants because it benefits the economy.

I’m not entirely sure what point I’m trying to make, other than I’m not sure who taught us that we needed to reject the life paths of the women that came before us?

I think ultimately it boils down to the complete and utter devaluing of (and contempt for) mothering and wifework. Which, as we’ve been discussing, doesn’t have to be thought of as a harmful and regressive gender stereotype but actually a reflection of evolution and why men and women have always inhabited different roles in society.

Of course that isn’t to say that wifework and mothering isn’t a tool of oppression still. I keep seeing these creepy American tradewife videos that glorifies constant pregnancy and off-grid self-sufficiency (growing vegetables and keeping chickens) and it just looks like miserable, back breaking work. And yes, regressive. But I think perhaps I understand why modern society makes some people look back at old fashioned ways with rose tinted spectacles.

If someone smarter than me feels like fleshing out this balls please do

I think ultimately it boils down to the complete and utter devaluing of (and contempt for) mothering and wifework. Which, as we’ve been discussing, doesn’t have to be thought of as a harmful and regressive gender stereotype but actually a reflection of evolution and why men and women have always inhabited different roles in society.

THIS

 

[mindlessness]

Just something I think is worth thinking about when we talk about women and work and all that. In recent human history many women did work (in the sense of earning money through their labour). In the 19th C 43% of women were in employment (notable of course that this was very class dependent!)

The Cambridge Group for the History of Population and Social Structure (CAMPOP), Cambridge

www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk

From family to factory: women's lives during the Industrial Revolution

The Industrial Revolution saw thousands of women enter the workplace alongside men – but it was far from emancipatory, writes Elinor Evans

www.historyextra.com

The ‘tradwives’ fully idealised return to the 1950s and expectation a woman does all of the child-rearing and home schooling and housekeeping isn’t all that ‘trad’ because the reality is a lot of those stereotyped housewives of the 20th C had a housekeeper and/or nanny and/or governess to help with all that (for wages I would not consider fair today!). Then for those less well-off there were communities and neighbours to share the labour and childcare with. Plus far less child supervision than is expected of parents nowadays
A fun fact - working parents spend more time with their children than they did 50 years ago: https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...wvwv8FKlu21ovq7kokkaAusXEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[DoraMaar]

Oxford Union had invited Khelif to speak

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

Oxford Union had invited Khelif to speak

Presumably the "unforeseen circumstances" are that he didn't expect anyone to find out for definite that he was male.

 

[jolly_parsley]

I’m shattered and grumpy anyway but this bit from today’s The Word Is Woman has made me even grumpier. Ugh.

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

Presumably the "unforeseen circumstances" are that he didn't expect anyone to find out for definite that he was male.

I suspect Mara’s letter may have been pivotal in his decision to pull out. Check mate. You really don’t want to mess with a very clever elite athlete like Mara. I love her

 

[Metropolis]

Sorry to lower the tone after all the excellent discussion up thread, but I’ve just seen that there is to be a new sitcom on ITV about a transwoman supermarket worker - starring Jordan ‘I can play the piano with my pen’ Gray . Seems like the writers have done their research though:

Verifying Device

 

[Shinythings]

It strikes me as I start looking at maternity leave that the woman being the breadwinner is a massive detriment and still very much assumes the man earns more. I'm using very rudimental figures here but you get the point....

Let's say woman earns £50k and man earns £30k, going on Mat Leave woman's wage goes down to £30k after initial full pay period. Combined income becomes £60k. Reverse those roles and combined income becomes £70k. Woman has to back to work much earlier if she is the breadwinner than the woman who is not.

 

[Notworthy]

It strikes me as I start looking at maternity leave that the woman being the breadwinner is a massive detriment and still very much assumes the man earns more. I'm using very rudimental figures here but you get the point....

Let's say woman earns £50k and man earns £30k, going on Mat Leave woman's wage goes down to £30k after initial full pay period. Combined income becomes £60k. Reverse those roles and combined income becomes £70k. Woman has to back to work much earlier if she is the breadwinner than the woman who is not.

Tax and NI on the £20K difference plus childcare costs means you won't be better off going back to work earlier so enjoy your maternity leave.

 

[taytay512]

Hey, I don't normally come to this thread, but something just happened that I need to vent about. I'm in a group chat for a karaoke meetup group called 'Karaoke Kings & Queens'...pretty harmless right? Apparently not, to the wokerati, it's fully popping off at the moment as someone (who I've seen at a meetup before who gives major peaked in high school energy) is getting offended because kings come before queens, and "men always go first". Proper getting up in arms offended, demanding that the name be changed. Obviously snow flakes always win, but this over sensitive woke bull nonsense grinds my gears. Then some other snowflake was saying how the name could be offputting to people that don't think their karaoke skills are good enough to be called kings/queens. I mean WTAF LOL get me off of this planet.

 

[Scotch Mist]

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

Sorry to lower the tone after all the excellent discussion up thread, but I’ve just seen that there is to be a new sitcom on ITV about a transwoman supermarket worker - starring Jordan ‘I can play the piano with my pen’ Gray . Seems like the writers have done their research though:

View attachment 3271111

Verifying Device

It sounds total shyte. Even if it didn't have a "transgender egomaniac", and was based around (say) someone whose dad was high up in the union/ on the board, it would still sound total shyte. Maybe 4 year olds would laugh at it - especially if "poo" is mentioned.

And I clicked on the link and was shocked to see how much weight Nick Frost has lost - he was my cuddly crush, and now he looks appalling!

 

[VC10]

I’m shattered and grumpy anyway but this bit from today’s The Word Is Woman has made me even grumpier. Ugh.

View attachment 3270984

"Stupid bleeps ".
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Sorry to lower the tone after all the excellent discussion up thread, but I’ve just seen that there is to be a new sitcom on ITV about a transwoman supermarket worker - starring Jordan ‘I can play the piano with my pen’ Gray . Seems like the writers have done their research though:

View attachment 3271111

Verifying Device

That'll bomb.... like their last " comedy" did.

 

[Falkor]

It sounds total shyte. Even if it didn't have a "transgender egomaniac", and was based around (say) someone whose dad was high up in the union/ on the board, it would still sound total shyte. Maybe 4 year olds would laugh at it - especially if "poo" is mentioned.

And I clicked on the link and was shocked to see how much weight Nick Frost has lost - he was my cuddly crush, and now he looks appalling!

I agree with you on the cuddly crush and, well, blimey Looks like a dead ringer for the BFG now.

 

[IndominusRex]

Sorry to lower the tone after all the excellent discussion up thread, but I’ve just seen that there is to be a new sitcom on ITV about a transwoman supermarket worker - starring Jordan ‘I can play the piano with my pen’ Gray . Seems like the writers have done their research though:

View attachment 3271111

Verifying Device

Is this a documentary or?

 

[Aquamarina]

Aaaahh. This pleaseth me greatly

There were a few of us TERFing it up on the JM threads back then. It’s great to see how this thread has grown since then.

 

[Dinate]

Presumably the "unforeseen circumstances" are that he didn't expect anyone to find out for definite that he was male.

I suspect it was the prospect of having to answer questions such as why didn't you challenge the IBA decision, and why don't you take a simple, unobtrusive chromosome test if you're really female, that influenced his decision?

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...rts-transgender-players-unfair-advantage.html

Well done these ladies for taking the Pool governing bodies to court for sex discrimination in allowing transgender women to compete in the women's category. It's ludicrous that they have had to hire experts to prove that biological men have an unfair advantage when playing pool. It should be obvious to anyone with half a brain: after all why bother having separate male and female categories if men don't have an unfair advantage?