Gender Discussion #7

AnderbeauJohnson · May 2, 2021

Fishyrod42 said:
Its normalised online. It's not just personal information people splash on social media it's also nudity. Sometimes for money, like only fans etc. We now live in a society where young women.....and lots of men too, think a viable side career is showing off online etc

That in turn makes it so much harder to protect the most vulnerable from forced prostitution. There is a big push right now for full decriminalisation, rather than the Nordic model, and any sex trafficking survivors online are shouted down, not only by angry men who are scared of having their porn/prostitutes taken away, but often by cam girl and only fans women who accuse them of being SWERFs, despite surviving through unimaginable horrors that these people can't comprehend. It's the epitome of "I'm alright Jack".

I grew up in the EoE and I'll never forget what Steven Wright did to those women. Rather than legislate with the least vulnerable (only fans account holders) in mind we should be legislating with the most vulnerable in mind so that it is safer for them to find help rather than making it easier for men to pimp them out.

emm · May 2, 2021

scot_nursey003 said:
These are the same people that argue that there are no “boys” and “girls” clothes, there’s just “clothes”..that’s why John Lewis (I think it was there) was going to change their children’s section to non segregated clothing.
the other thing I don’t understand, and excuse me if I’m being ignorant here, is how you can be trans, but also non binary? If you feel strongly enough that you’re one way that you need to transition to the opposite sex, how can you say you also don’t fit in “the binary”

100% agree, so much of what they say is illogical and contradictory, like claiming someone who is trans is anti trans, the mental gymnastics are baffling. I really wonder how people that don't speak english natively view these bizarre conversations, it is confusing enoguh for me

AnderbeauJohnson · May 2, 2021

scot_nursey003 said:
These are the same people that argue that there are no “boys” and “girls” clothes, there’s just “clothes”..that’s why John Lewis (I think it was there) was going to change their children’s section to non segregated clothing.
the other thing I don’t understand, and excuse me if I’m being ignorant here, is how you can be trans, but also non binary? If you feel strongly enough that you’re one way that you need to transition to the opposite sex, how can you say you also don’t fit in “the binary”

Because everyone who isn't a walking barbie doll or action man is considered under the 'trans umbrella' these days

scot_nursey003 · May 2, 2021

maytoseptember said:
Of course she was getting loads of applause, but I just wanted to scream - you are female and a woman! Just because you reject gender and societal expectations of women, that doesn’t make you not a woman!

Canadian baby 'first without gender designation' on health card

Canadian parent wants to keep child's sex off records and allow them to discover their own gender.

www.google.co.uk

For some reason that reminded me of this story from a few years ago in Canada, where a baby had no sex assigned a birth because the parents wanted them “to discover their own gender”.
I can’t believe doctors ever let this happen. It’s ridiculous that we’ve all become so scared of offending/losing our jobs over what is a small minority that we’ve just lost all common sense.

Falkor · May 2, 2021

That graphic makes me so cross. I haven't worn a skirt or dress in years, I drive a tractor and a quad bike, I farm sheep and I rip houses to pieces and rebuild them. I'd say that's probably challenging the traditional UK gender role of a woman, so does that make me trans too?

CheshireLove · May 2, 2021

thegirlscout said:
I’ve made it. I’ve never been blocked before!
View attachment 556182

WTF is that header and profile picture? Holy blurry photoshop Batman.

maytoseptember · May 2, 2021

Has anyone posted this interview (from The Observer, not The Guardian... The Guardian would never) with Dr David Bell, retired psychiatrist at the Tavistock (he worked in the adult service, not with children). The entire piece is so damning I could quote half of it right now.

Tavistock trust whistleblower David Bell: ‘I believed I was doing the right thing’

The psychiatrist behind a critical report on the gender identity unit at the NHS trust on the efforts to silence him and his concerns about children’s access to treatment

www.theguardian.com

Staff from the GIDS service, working with kids, approached him with their concerns and he wrote a report. The Tavistock tried REALLY hard to threaten and silence him.

Among these concerns were the fact that children attending GIDS often seemed to be rehearsed and sometimes did not share their parents’ sense of urgency; that senior staff spoke of “straightforward cases” in terms of children who were to be put on puberty blockers (no case of gender dysphoria, notes Bell, can be said to be straightforward); that some were recommended for treatment after just two appointments and seen only infrequently thereafter; some felt that GIDS employed too many inexperienced (and inexpensive) psychologists; that clinicians who’d spoken of homophobia in the unit were told they had “personal issues”. One told Bell that a child as young as eight had been referred to an endocrinologist for treatment. “I could not go on like this… I could not live with myself given the poor treatment the children were obtaining,” said another.

Whatever the outcome of the appeal, he believes more questions must be asked, particularly about the rise in the number of girls presenting at the clinic (three-quarters of patients are now girls; the gender balance used to be closer to 50:50). “We do not know why this is happening.” He worries that too much emphasis is placed on gender and not enough on sexuality – “the children are often gay” – and he continues to be anxious about co-morbidities such as anorexia, autism and history of trauma in its patients. “Some of the children are depressed. It’s said that it’s their gender that is the cause of this, but how do we know? And why don’t we try to treat that first?”

Bell is not against puberty blockers per se – “a doctor should never say never” – but he believes that halting puberty only makes it more frightening to the child: “The child will never want to come off the hormones and 98% do now stay on them. This could be a dangerous collusion on the part of the doctor. The body is not a video machine. You can’t just press a pause button. You have to ask what it really means to stop puberty.”

Notworthy · May 2, 2021

Falkor said:
That graphic makes me so cross. I haven't worn a skirt or dress in years, I drive a tractor and a quad bike, I farm sheep and I rip houses to pieces and rebuild them. I'd say that's probably challenging the traditional UK gender role of a woman, so does that make me trans too?

Disturbing, isn't it, these are young people that we keep being told are much more liberal and accepting than older people yet here they are reinforcing gender stereotypes we've spent 50 years trying to break down.

scot_nursey003 · May 2, 2021

What do we think is causing this increase in children with gender dysphoria? Is it schools trying to be inclusive, the parents, both, something else?
My brother is a “straight cis” male, now I used to dress him up as a girl when we were wee, it was a bit of fun and used to give our parents a real laugh. He very quickly grew out of it, on his own accord. We also used to share toys. As far As I’m aware, he has never questioned his gender, in fact he shares the same views as me on the topic.
Are parents pushing the narrative that children just playing and exploring equates to them questioning their identity?

emm · May 2, 2021

scot_nursey003 said:
What do we think is causing this increase in children with gender dysphoria? Is it schools trying to be inclusive, the parents, both, something else?
My brother is a “straight cis” male, now I used to dress him up as a girl when we were wee, it was a bit of fun and used to give our parents a real laugh. He very quickly grew out of it, on his own accord. We also used to share toys. As far As I’m aware, he has never questioned his gender, in fact he shares the same views as me on the topic.
Are parents pushing the narrative that children just playing and exploring equates to them questioning their identity?

I think it is just the thing, as I have mentioned before, that preivously people would have been "labelled" (for want of a better word) as tomboy/effeminate etc and now it needs to be seen as some major issue... my mum was/is very feminist and so when I grew up I wore a huge mix of clothes, sometimes quite "boyish" other times dresses etc. There doesn;t seem to be this anymore, it has gone to a total extreme (I was born in the late 80s to give it context) As someone who was very involved in the feminsit movement, my mum is horrified at the backtracking in what she worked SO hard for

Notworthy · May 2, 2021

emm said:
I think it is just the thing, as I have mentioned before, that preivously people would have been "labelled" (for want of a better word) as tomboy/effeminate etc and now it needs to be seen as some major issue... my mum was/is very feminist and so when I grew up I wore a huge mix of clothes, sometimes quite "boyish" other times dresses etc. There doesn;t seem to be this anymore, it has gone to a total extreme (I was born in the late 80s to give it context) As someone who was very involved in the feminsit movement, my mum is horrified at the backtracking in what she worked SO hard for

I think it's much more simple than that for a number of children, when we are young we desperately want to have or be something that makes us 'special' I can remember in biology class we did an experiment to see what out blood type was, I desperately wanted to not be O+ (average) obviously a lot more minor than wanting to change sex but this was 37 years ago, our ambitions were small back then. Anyway it ended up being a crap test because I came back O+, honestly when I found out during my pregnancy I was actually A- I was so pissed off for my 13 year old self. all I wanted was 1 tiny little thing to set me apart

emmer_moans · May 2, 2021

scot_nursey003 said:
What do we think is causing this increase in children with gender dysphoria? Is it schools trying to be inclusive, the parents, both, something else?
My brother is a “straight cis” male, now I used to dress him up as a girl when we were wee, it was a bit of fun and used to give our parents a real laugh. He very quickly grew out of it, on his own accord. We also used to share toys. As far As I’m aware, he has never questioned his gender, in fact he shares the same views as me on the topic.
Are parents pushing the narrative that children just playing and exploring equates to them questioning their identity?

I think people are more aware of how they are being perceived in terms of 'virtue' and I think people learn from each other on a larger, more persistent level. Everyone then applies what they have learned into school, university, work, government, social settings etc. To me it feels like we've learned to police each other and chide each other for not subscribing to the woke item of the moment. I feel gender ideology has replaced the pompous piety you would have seen decades ago. So when influencers sell themselves as woke online, teens take that into schools, adults take it into work and into policy, and then it's like suddenly there's this new 'standard' that you have to meet else you'll be cancelled.

For girls I think it is a rejection of sterotypes that consumerism has perpetuated the past couple of decades.

For boys again I expect there are not many role modules of effeminate men so if they don't match up to stocky macho type then they may feel dysphoric.

I also think homophobia is on the rise, you have religious groups preferring to have trans people than accept lesbian and gay people. You also have parents who want the children to be girly or boyish, and some parents simply have munchousens by proxy and want to mould their kid to be 'different, stunning and brave'

I also think the gender ideology amongst teens has replaced trends such as emo and goth, skaters etc. I also think kids want to be seen as cool so if persuasive kids spout the gender woo, lots of kids will follow.

Then you have some AGPs and MAPs using the ideology as a Trojan Horse to be able to get away with their fetishes in a way that is seemingly becoming acceptable because apparently there is 'no debate', and it being 'literal violence' to challenge their identity.

I think others use it for the 'look at me' factor.

Then, for some, it's a very easy way to tell women to STFU and perpetuate misogyny, trying to tie us up in knots with social policy and such.

So, I think it's not for one reason but many that seem to have escalated in the past decade, into one melting pot.

I would have been classed as a tomboy as a teen. Glad I'm not a teenager trying to navigate this shite. There's no escape, social media is everything to them these days.

emm · May 2, 2021

Notworthy said:
I think it's much more simple than that for a number of children, when we are young we desperately want to have or be something that makes us 'special' I can remember in biology class we did an experiment to see what out blood type was, I desperately wanted to not be O+ (average) obviously a lot more minor than wanting to change sex but this was 37 years ago, our ambitions were small back then. Anyway it ended up being a crap test because I came back O+, honestly when I found out during my pregnancy I was actually A- I was so pissed off for my 13 year old self. all I wanted was 1 tiny little thing to set me apart

that thing about the blood type is very random, but yes I agree! It is the same as teenagers dressing as goths/punks etc , that really makes total sense! good explanation!

Icing _on_ the_cake · May 2, 2021

emmer_moans said:
I think people are more aware of how they are being perceived in terms of 'virtue' and I think people learn from each other on a larger, more persistent level. Everyone then applies what they have learned into school, university, work, government, social settings etc. To me it feels like we've learned to police each other and chide each other for not subscribing to the woke item of the moment. I feel gender ideology has replaced the pompous piety you would have seen decades ago. So when influencers sell themselves as woke online, teens take that into schools, adults take it into work and into policy, and then it's like suddenly there's this new 'standard' that you have to meet else you'll be cancelled.

For girls I think it is a rejection of sterotypes that consumerism has perpetuated the past couple of decades.

For boys again I expect there are not many role modules of effeminate men so if they don't match up to stocky macho type then they may feel dysphoric.

I also think homophobia is on the rise, you have religious groups preferring to have trans people than accept lesbian and gay people. You also have parents who want the children to be girly or boyish, and some parents simply have munchousens by proxy and want to mould their kid to be 'different, stunning and brave'

I also think the gender ideology amongst teens has replaced trends such as emo and goth, skaters etc. I also think kids want to be seen as cool so if persuasive kids spout the gender woo, lots of kids will follow.

Then you have some AGPs and MAPs using the ideology as a Trojan Horse to be able to get away with their fetishes in a way that is seemingly becoming acceptable because apparently there is 'no debate', and it being 'literal violence' to challenge their identity.

I think others use it for the 'look at me' factor.

Then, for some, it's a very easy way to tell women to STFU and perpetuate misogyny, trying to tie us up in knots with social policy and such.

So, I think it's not for one reason but many that seem to have escalated in the past decade, into one melting pot.

I would have been classed as a tomboy as a teen. Glad I'm not a teenager trying to navigate this shite. There's no escape, social media is everything to them these days.

Given the Everyone's Invited stuff and some of the content on egg irl, it seems that the accessibility of online porn is also having a big impact on teen culture.

Notworthy · May 2, 2021

Icing _on_ the_cake said:
Given the Everyone's Invited stuff and some of the content on egg irl, it seems that the accessibility of online porn is also having a big impact on teen culture.

I do wonder if childrens smart phones were taken away and they were just given a mobile with no camera and no internet, most of these issues would reduce significantly.

Vee6 · May 2, 2021

That’s what I plan to do with my children!!

AnderbeauJohnson · May 2, 2021

Looks like things aren't great in Germany either.

Germany's oldest lesbian festival under sustained attack by transgender activists for hosting women-only workshops and feminist speakers - Lesbian and Gay News

Germany’s oldest lesbian festival, “Lesbenfrühlingstreffen” (LFT) has become the subject of a sustained campaign of harassment. The event, which has been running since 1974, has been targeted on social media by transgender activists for having women-only workshops and feminist speakers. This has...

lesbianandgaynews.com

One of Germany’s most established lesbian (and latterly transgender inclusive) organisations, LesbenRing e.V., has sought to distance itself from LFT, withdrawing their offer of a workshop and releasing a statement on social media criticising LFT. Bundesverband Trans (BVT), a large transgender group, complained that LFT were perpetuating the idea that women’s spaces were under threat of invasion by transwomen. A Facebook comment from BVT, (originally in German), concluded “We demand that events like the Lesbian Spring Meeting finally show solidarity with the concerns of all LGBTIQA+ persons.” Dyke Marches across the country have also reportedly followed suit in condemnation of LFT.

Icing _on_ the_cake · May 2, 2021

Notworthy said:
I do wonder if childrens smart phones were taken away and they were just given a mobile with no camera and no internet, most of these issues would reduce significantly.

I wonder what the average age is that teens are getting them. I don't think they would have the maturity at all for them until 16+.

But even if you take the phone away, obviously many kids will still have personal laptop.

Notworthy · May 2, 2021

Icing _on_ the_cake said:
I wonder what the average age is that teens are getting them. I don't think they would have the maturity at all for them until 16+.

But even if you take the phone away, obviously many kids will still have personal laptop.

Most kids in the UK or atleast the Southeast get them at 11 when they start secondary school. My son got a mobile then but it wasn't a smart phone, he was the only boy that didn't get mugged so contrary to what people say, phones don't make children safer.

barmj · May 2, 2021

LOL looks like the mob is after Caitlyn Jenner for her internalised transphobia

Gender Discussion #7

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