Gender Discussion #69

[KerGlr5]

A friend who is really into the Olympics is shocked by this and can't believe that's been allowed, how unfair etc. I'm hoping that one thing that comes from this morning is that it brings awareness to more women who are normally silent or #bekind about men thinking they can say they're women. I'm heartbroken for Angela.

 

[Platformcrocs]

Notice the hatred being spewed towards Angela Carini too. A woman who has done nothing wrong and never asked to be pulled into this shitstorm.

These people can't help themselves. They're absolutely gleeful with seeing a woman being nothing more than assaulted right in front of them.

 

[Terrible]

This solidifies my view that nobody should be allowed to change their birth certificate or passport. Put a gender marker, fine, but to falsify a legal document is beyond ridiculous.

I realise in this case the passport would still be female - which is why a cheek swab would still be needed, and a stupendously easy one-time solution.

 

[JAR21]

I’ve just heard on the radio she’s been boxing as a female for years though. So… it’s been her life really…but my sympathy or not (for a person with a medical condition) isn’t going to make much difference so…as I’ve already said, if she’s XY she shouldn’t be fighting women.
My son’s work colleague is a female to male (transitioning) transsexual which I have no problem with. It’s the heightened and inflammatory rhetoric about it all that I find concerning.
One of my sons is gay, and I know he’s getting a bit concerned as things are always classed as LGBTQ etc.
It’s disquieting to me, and him, at times.

That's like saying I've been speeding for years, but now the Police have caught me, I should be allowed to carry on because I've been doing it for years!

 

[Em_gardener]

I hope she or her federation sue the IOC. I can't believe this was allowed. The reality was even worse than I expected.

 

[Miggsy]

Years ago I saw a programme with a Beitish woman how found out that they had been born with DSD (I believe at the time of the programme they were called intersex). This person had been raised as female and married a man and considered themselves female. It was a shock when they found out that they were biologically a man.

I have every sympathy for people born with DSD like the boxers and Caster Semenya but the studies show that they are biologically male and have a biological advantage over biological women.

People say in sport the categories are male and female but I understand it is actually female and an ope category. Women could compete in the open category but they don't because they would NEVER win.

I believe that the boxers can identify and call themselves women but I do not believe that they should be competing against biological women in ANY sporting field.

I remember when Caster won the 800m at the Olympics, my mum and I looked at the three medalists and said they were all biological males and I believe it was found that they did all have DSD and that scouts went to poor areas searching out "girls" with these disorders to compete in sports.

As I said, I do have every sympathy for then but they should not be competing in the women's category.

I did/do have sympathy for them but only to a point. It must be horrible to have such a disorder and for it to be played out so publicly. However my sympathy ends at the point where they still take part in female sport knowing they are male irrespective of how they identify.

as for the 2016 800 m I remember watching it with my then 7 year old son. He is autistic and has zero filter…he said “why are there men in the women’s race?” He was peaked before I was. Out of the mouths of babes and all that

 

[TheMiceInTheShed]

Not sure I’m going to express this properly but here goes..
I think the treatment of these boys with ambiguous/underdeveloped genitalia is in itself misogynistic.
Women don’t equal…lacking. We are not just men that are lacking. Why does our biology truly mean nothing. Our unique health experiences and our biological material reality mean nothing. Don’t have a penis? Oh you can just be a women then.

I’ve just been rereading about Sophie Ottaway who was born male with disfigured genitalia. They took away the male genitals (including perfectly healthy testes) and fashioned a hole. Sophie describes the “vagina” as plopping out in the nappy. The doctors put it back inside the baby and then sealed the hole shut. Sophie in adult life then had brown ooze and suffered sepsis. The medical pathway they put Sophie on affected their whole life.

Putting a hole into a person = female. What can that hole do? Well nothing except nearly kill you in this case. To me it means that women are really just seen as a receptacle for a penis. You’re a hole. That’s the function that makes you a woman apparently.

I don’t know why some women can’t see that this isn’t a fight for “bathrooms and sports” (as Rob Delaney mockingly labelled it) it is a fight for our material reality and a place in the world where we are not just humans that are lacking being men. Our reality as women means something. Not a thought in a man’s head. Not a hole. Not the absence of male. Not something obtained by outfits or haircuts. Not being constantly told to make our space, reality and existence in this World smaller and smaller.

An excellent post - thank you.

women are really just seen as a receptacle for a penis.

This is what so many men (and apparently some women) seem to think. This is doubtless why we have the foul expression "bonus hole" as an alternative term for the vagina.

Women are not just a flesh bag of useful orifices - we are living, breathing, incredible human beings with a unique role in the world. Our biology, our experiences, our "woman-ness" cannot be replicated. Nature has designed us in a particular way, with particular capacities and potentialities, and NO MAN - no matter how gentle, no matter how effeminate, no matter how surgically altered, or hormonally enhanced can EVER BECOME FEMALE.

The biggest, butchest, meanest XX bitch is a woman: the daintiest, most compliant "ladyboy" or TW remains a man - whether people like it or not, that is a FACT.
---

It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on, especially the bit about ‘embracing her’. I bet she was getting threats from captured sponsors who have conflated the issue with ‘transphobia’.

‘All this controversy makes me sad,’ she told Gazzetta dello Sport. ‘I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.’
Carini, 25, also expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.
‘It wasn't something I intended to do,’ she said. ‘Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.’
She added that if she met Khelif again, she would ‘embrace her’.

Meanwhile, Luca Hamori who is due to face Khelif today, posted the following picture on social media

View attachment 3089182

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...s_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_mailonline

It definitely sounds as if someone pressured Carini into making her subsequent statement. It’s redolent of the retractions we are used to reading after a TRA pile on

It's redolent of the forced"confessions" in Stalinist Russia.

 

[VC10]

I'm done with other Women supporting this.

 

[MmmB777]

I had my sex assigned at the passport office. It was a huge shock to my husband and children.

 

[Weebles Wobble]

'Every person has the right to practice sport without discrimination,'

The Olympics do discriminate, as only the athletically elite have a chance of qualifying for a place. This isn't a classroom where the teachers are trying to make sure every child is taking part.

As Sharron Davis says, introduce cheek swab tests.

 

[FourSeasonSoupObsessive]

Motte and Bailey fallacy?

Motte-and-bailey fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Am in despair this morning, a friend has her fb feed awash with accusations that only MAGA knuckle draggers could object to Khelif, that Carini “weaponised white womens tears”, and is “whining” and Khelif is being shamed for being a woman with high testosterone who doesn’t owe you femininity. Anyone objecting is a racist and a transphobe. This woman graduated from Harvard and holds down a senior role. I fucking give up.

 

[Ilovemusic]

In my local shop this morning were two elderly men in the middle of the aisle having (a not quiet) conversation about the match and how disgraceful that a man had been allowed to fight against a woman, the forceful punches etc. I wanted to give them a and say thanks for standing up for women!

 

[FourSeasonSoupObsessive]

I think the gender debate suffers from having every logical fallacy and dishonest debating tactic that exists being thrown at it. It’s what you have to do when you’re defending a logically inconsistent worldview that’s long on emotion and short on facts. The sad thing is how many people fall for it, or don’t feel equipped to challenge it when they see it.

Thank god for this thread at the moment, I’m fizzing angry about how little of a shit everyone from the IOC down to some rando on my friends FB feed gives a shit about women’s sports

 

[maytoseptember]

God, the discourse on Twitter is still unbearable. The misogynists and TRAs (two cheeks of the same arse obviously) are loving being able to call Angela Carini “that Italian bitch” who cried off and must just be shit at boxing.

Someone has unearthed supposed photos of Khelif as a child, and because he’s clearly dressed as a girl and wearing pink dangly earrings they’re all saying SEE! SHE’S A FEMALE!

One man confidently saying “I believe she is a biological woman with XY chromosomes and high testosterone. But I’m not a biologist so I don’t know what that means.”

The problem we have, dear TERFs, is that very few people out there seem to understand basic science.

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...complain-transgender-colleagues-workwear.html

Article in the mail today. Colleagues have raised concerns about the “unlawful imposition” of trans ideology on their department and are made to feel like bigots if they object to him flaunting his fetish at work or refuse to wholeheartedly support gender ideology. Indeed! These people are wholly unelected, and in a position to massively influence government policy. They should not have such an untouchable position of power they can compel others to unquestioningly accept their beliefs and act as though they don’t even have to observe such basics as dressing appropriately for work.

 

[Tofino]

The IOC have doubled down with strong language. Gaslighting pricks.

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...-female-rival-angela-carini-imane-khelif.html

'Every person has the right to practice sport without discrimination,'

It also attacked 'misleading information about two female athletes',

The statement highlighted 'aggression' against the boxers

The IOC is saddened by the abuse that the two athletes are currently receiving.'

 

[Tofino]

I don’t remember seeing this posted (forgive me if I missed it) but IBA did a second press release. I don’t know how anyone can argue with this

IBA reaffirms the position and removal of boxers from all events, aims to protect female boxers, and condemns both the International Olympic Committee and World Boxing for allowing ineligible athletes to compete

Further to the IBA statement made yesterday evening regarding the removal of ineligible athletes from all IBA female competitions, we reiterate our stance and firm position. IBA remains committed in ensuring competitive fairness in all of our events, we absolutely condemn the inconsistencies in...

www.iba.sport

 

[VC10]

OK - when in fact she was assigned female at birth and has lived her life as a woman. The point remains.

He has since found out that he is Biologically a Man. Proven in DNA science. That no longer gives him the right to punch Women in Womens sports and take their medals- for " entertainment" and claps.

He IS a man. XY DNA chromosomes. Immutable, scientific fact.

How he's been living is neither here nor there.
HE is a man.

 

[MmmB777]

The IOC give not a single shit about fairness or women.

 

[Tofino]

Where is the evidence of said vagina and uterus? Can you provide a link for us?

The evidence is the photo of Khelif as a child wearing a dress and pigtails.
Please educate yourself and do better.