Gender Discussion #69

[idk21]

The people who have walked the walk are speaking out





And Irvine Welsh. Are people really going to start boycotting and shitting all over Trainspotting now?

 

[Status:PiningTheBog]

“This is not right, this is not fair”

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

So to recap, both the WBO and IBA have stated that the two boxers in question have failed gender/sex tests and that they don't have the right genes to compete in women's sports but everyone is too busy screaming "bigot" to actual read about this and to realise we aren't lying, it's actually fucking happening.

Is that about right!?

I do laugh at the fact that I introduced myself as a "cis" woman on this thread a year and a half ago I was soon schooled, but look at me now

 

[Em_gardener]

The level of scientific knowledge (or lack thereof) in the general population is frightening.

 

[Libertine1975]

Years ago I saw a programme with a Beitish woman how found out that they had been born with DSD (I believe at the time of the programme they were called intersex). This person had been raised as female and married a man and considered themselves female. It was a shock when they found out that they were biologically a man.

I have every sympathy for people born with DSD like the boxers and Caster Semenya but the studies show that they are biologically male and have a biological advantage over biological women.

People say in sport the categories are male and female but I understand it is actually female and an ope category. Women could compete in the open category but they don't because they would NEVER win.

I believe that the boxers can identify and call themselves women but I do not believe that they should be competing against biological women in ANY sporting field.

I remember when Caster won the 800m at the Olympics, my mum and I looked at the three medalists and said they were all biological males and I believe it was found that they did all have DSD and that scouts went to poor areas searching out "girls" with these disorders to compete in sports.

As I said, I do have every sympathy for then but they should not be competing in the women's category.

 

[maytoseptember]

I'm also getting annoyed at all the references to 'gender tests.' It's sex. Biological Sex.

Just saw someone on Twitter who said “How does one fail a gender test? Is it being bad at doing a smokey eye?”

 

[WonkeyDonkey]

What is most heartbreaking is women who won't support or protect other women from 2 boxers who are obviously men with xy chromosomes. We've all grown up with misogyny which we expect from men but it so much harder to accept when it comes from a woman & those women seem to be everywhere.

How will we protect our daughters when we know some of our 'sisters' will turn their backs on them.

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

This is the pattern though, isn’t it? Make a stand, get vilified, humbly apologise for your ‘wrong think’.

We’ve seen it over and over again: Recite the script, capitulate, or lose everything.

JKR & Martina Navratilova both came back stronger after first being cowed into contrition, but differing circumstances don’t make it feasible for everyone.

 

[TheShire]

I'm not sure how it's so complicated? People with male XY chromosomes should be banned from competing in women’s events.

 

[jolly_parsley]

Perhaps if they stay around long enough they will "re-educate" themselves!

Literally what happened to me only I was smart enough to lurk to challenge my TRA viewpoint rather than wade in with my ridiculous takes that I was repeating from Twitter. But you lot talk a lot of sense and now I’m a full blown TERF and love these threads (sometimes I do step away because I get so pissed off by the world but you lot are some of the best people here)

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

A colleague has a child who competes (Olympics, commonwealth and all the others) and I was really surprised how invasive the drugs testing is. She was telling me that any overnight stays away from home have to be reported and an address provided, and they can turn up at any time of day unannounced asking for a urine sample, which has to be witnessed. If they turn up and you're not where you said you would be, it's a big problem.
Can't see how a cheek swab would cause any additional bother in comparison.

This is what I don’t get. World class athletes get constantly tested. A cheek swab is non invasive, it’s quick and it only needs to be done once.

The only reason that they stopped doing it is because someone had a vested interest in getting it stopped. And that person or people aren’t women.

 

[Vanelope]

Clare Baldwin looked quite uncomfortable introducing a report about it and said this story was going to run and run. It better keep running. A guardian reporter there has got hold of it and the Mail has run it as a man beating a woman in public.

The IOC have discredited the IBA as they were run by Russia and apparently corrupt. However whatever tests the IBA did -assumed to be a genetic test not a testosterone test - they both failed and did not appeal. This indicates (but does not prove) they are DSd athletes / like Caster Semanya and biologically male but potentially appeared female at birth and may have been treated as a female when a child. Semanya wore boys clothes and did not do extra chores like the girls did. Coaches look for DSD athletes to win women’s sport.

They are not trans. The inclusion of DSD under the trans umbrella has muddied all of this on purpose. DSd athletes have been in the Olympics for years - Rio 2016 notably.

Being back cheek swap genetic testing for women’s athletes. Nothing intrusive - basic biology.

 

[klarakluckbag]

Personally, what I find really off-putting, is watching this individual punching a woman in the face. And then having a quick feel of her breasts as he walked past her in the ring.
He's a man alright, that's typical male behaviour, violent and predatory. What happened in that match is a fucking disgrace, and if you're defending this man, you need your head examined, not to mention your eyesight.

 

[Princess She-Ra]

At a previous job, there was a trans woman who liked to wear fishnet tights, leather mini skirt, random baggy T-shirt and a shit quality wig. I didn’t see him every day as he was in a different department, but when I did, it would always be inappropriate.
There was a dress policy, with some young girls threatened with being sent home to change when if they wore a strappy vest top in the summer (most would borrow a hoodie from a mate to prevent this).
But the trans woman could strut about the office and not one manager would have a word.
I thought it was wrong then (before I was a terf) but this is what happens when managers are too scared to actually manage people.
I don’t give a fuck about what fetishware you put on behind closed doors, but I don’t want to see it, especially not when I am trying to work!

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

Institutionally captured.

“In many countries, speculation about women’s gender identity or sex characteristics can put their lives at risk."

And a man punching a woman in the head puts her life at risk. But we’re supposed to #bekind and let that happen?

 

[maytoseptember]

I follow but it's possible from women to have XY chromosomes. Perhaps that's where we differ.

The fact some rare disorders exist does not make XX=female and XY=male untrue

That’s why they are called disorders. They are deviations from the norm.

Humans are a bipedal species (two legs, that is). The fact that some people are born with limb differences doesn’t make that untrue.

Humans have 46 chromosomes. The fact Down’s syndrome exists (47 chromosomes) doesn’t make that untrue.

You really are being deliberately obtuse. I’m not sure whether you think you’re being clever, or you’re just really determined to be the best, kindest, most inclusive leftie there is. Whatever. If this craziness ever affects your life in a negative way, this thread would still be here for you.

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

This was entirely predictable. Would anyone else like to come into this thread and tell me it’s a matter of debate what male and female are and up to the IOC?

No male athletes in women’s sports, no exceptions. That includes XY individuals with DSDs, who are still male. We know they are being actively scouted because they can beat women since they’re male. The IBA has already called this out.

I’ve said it before, I had sympathy in the past for intersex athletes but once it has been pointed out to them that they are in fact genetically male and should be ineligible to compete then it’s up to them to accept this, no matter how sad it is for them that their dream is over it is unfair and dangerous to women!

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

Imane Khalif was born female. Presumably with all the genitalia and body parts and functions that go with someone who has that has that on their birth certificate. She is not transgender, she's literally from a country were she'd be locked up in prison if she was.

Two cisgender women took part in a boxing match and people have lost their minds because they feel one of them looks man-ish leading to reports from a dubious source that she was tested and found to have XY chromosomes and a slightly higher level of testosterone than average for a woman...none of which makes her a man anyway.

Presumably? What is the basis for that presumption?

Where has anyone said that Khelif is a transwoman? The discussion has been quite clear that Khelif is believed to be a man with dsd.

In what sense does having xy chromosomes — i.e. being genetically male — mean that someone is not a man?

 

[veronica71]

 

[Hayley1826]

And to all of the commentators and presenters who have a platform, and could stand up and say something but remain quiet (yes you bbc)- shame on you