Gender Discussion #69

[jolly_parsley]

Am I being reeeeaally dumb in thinking that if someone doesn’t meet the eligibility criteria to compete in women’s sports (and then either doesn’t appeal or withdraws the appeal) then that suggests they are not a woman?

I don’t give 2 hoots if they were raised and treated as a girl and then woman, that doesn’t change biology.

I don’t know I feel like I’m losing brain cells and the will to live with some of the arguments.

 

[nothanksbabes]

As someone that was brought up around amazing butch lesbian friends of my mother, in the gay rights/left wing (when they weren’t mental) movements, I find it absolutely fucking insulting that I’m accused of being prejudice against women that are butch.

Gender nonconformity is awesome. What you wear or your haircut does not change your sexed body. It’s not our movement that would happily tell a young butch girl that she’s born wrong and would be better off medicalised and living a lie her whole life.

We are a group of women on this thread that put the rights, dignity, fairness, safety, opportunities, achievements of WOMEN above all else. We might have differing views in many other ways but this issue unites us.
To accuse any of us of not respecting women just cos they might have short hair or “masculine” clothes is a total insult to our intelligence and integrity.
If these were butch women there’d be no fucking issue but butch women don’t fail sex testing.

Categorising butch women and black women like washed up nobody Mark Steel has just done, in with fucking MEN is an absolute insult to those women. Men aren't another type of woman.

Get off your knees.

Absolutely. The implicit homophobia in the presumption that butch women and men are indistinguishable is so, so regressive.

I've said it before in this thread, but as someone who has had long term relationships with both men and (butch) women, I have never confused the two . The willful idiocy of suddenly pretending we all can't tell the difference between men and women in the majority of cases... Literally the basis of all human life, all 8 billion of us, but suddenly in 2024 we're all confused? No.

 

[idk21]

 

[ahtisyourself]

So performance enhancers will get you disqualified but you can be a biological man who identifies female, and that completely unfair (and dangerous) advantage is okay. Women’s sport is finished

 

[HoGi]

My dad's side of the family are heavily involved in boxing. My uncle fought alongside the Kray's etc.

A few of my cousins (who box) have posted their outrage and thankfully the comments are all people agreeing. Nice to know I share blood with intelligent people and not handmaidens.

 

[FourSeasonSoupObsessive]

Oh for fucks sake. Poor Angela. Presumably been told to capitulate on pain of deselection, loss of sponsorship, public shaming etc etc.

Angela, you were RIGHT to disrespect someone who disrespected you. I won’t judge or shame you for having been forced to do what you need to do to survive in this invidious position, but I hope you know that if you chose to do otherwise, many, many people would support you.

For those still puzzled by why posters here are being so “mean”, it may help to think of womens sport as being a protected category. Only those with the relevant protected characteristic, eg being female, are eligible to join. It’s legitimate, proportionate discrimination. Womens sport must be safe, fair and inclusive (ALWAYS in that specific order), but being inclusive does not apply to those not sharing the protected characteristic, eg males, eg anyone with a Y chromosome.

if this is still difficult, go back to basics and ask “what is womens sport for?” Or, “why do we have womens sporting categorisations?l”

The answer is of course that otherwise women would not be safe, and would never stand a chance of winning, and the entry of any male person at all removes our ability to have that. If you don’t think that this boxer should be excluded, then where do you draw the line? Which male characteristics would be enough?

 

[SkippyDoo]

Some people seem to be of the view that if Khelif is biologically male, they should still be fighting against women because of their upbringing, how they were identified at birth, etc, the fact that Michael Phelps is a good athlete etc. I just don’t agree. We have sex-segregated sports in most categories for good reasons. Boxing is an obvious one where men and women can’t fight each other. It’s not in a grey area. It is probably the first sport you would think of where biological men can’t be hitting women.

If Khelif is male then Khelif should be in the male competition. I don’t want to be disrespectful to a person raised and socialised as female, but it’s equally deeply disrespectful to female fighters to expect them to compete against biological males.

Now why is any of that offensive or prejudiced? It’s also got nothing to do with anyone who is trans, separate issue.

“You’re policing women who don’t fit an ideal!” Here someone will often cite a woman who people think isn’t very feminine who is a female who does not have a DSD as a “gotcha” and in fact betray their own prejudices. I’m not policing anything, I’m noting biological sex and its relevance to contact sports.

 

[Regina Fellangi]

Not trans related but sex related post. Twice in the past couple of weeks I've encountered situations that has demonstrated to me clearly one of the many differences between men and women. I'm 61 years old, not a woman likely to have her head turned by "banter" or flattery from total strangers. Situation 1 man of similar age pops up next to me in M&S queue "'scuse me sweetie you don't mind if I just jump in front of you I just want to ask the price of something", situation 2 in the greengrocers just buying my fruit & veg. Supplier to the shop says to me out of nowhere "is this the best shop in town", errrr yes I think so for fruit & veg (I reply) "I bet you just come in for the banter and to flirt with Paul", Paul is the owner. I mean where do I start? Would he have suggested that to my husband if he'd been shopping? What makes men think this sort of thing is appropriate? It may seem like nothing at all given what we've witnessed this week in Paris, but having grown up in the 70s (zero rights) and worked in bloke heavy environments in my 20s with all the horrors that entailed, I am just so so SICK of being patronised, talked down to, insulted, demeaned, expected to be grateful for their attention, by men. Come on Elon, get that rocket to Mars up and running I'll be first in the queue.

 

[Doll Parts]

The implication in calling her a man is that she's a man trying to get into women's sports ie trans. When in fact she was born a woman.

But she wasn't born a woman that's the whole point!

 

[Shackmaheid]

I'm also getting annoyed at all the references to 'gender tests.' It's sex. Biological Sex.

Exactly. I don't give a crap how you identify. It's sex, chromosomes, biology that matters not that you think your a cat and want to shit in a box.

 

[Tofino]

I had my sex assigned at the passport office. It was a huge shock to my husband and children.

What about people who don’t have a passport? Won’t anyone think of them?

 

[Venom]

 

[MmmB777]

Ah yes that well known reliable sex testing method of “will you sometimes lose against the opposite sex”?

Mediocre males will sometimes be out performed by elite female athletes. Doesn’t make them women. Stick them against the men they’re actually supposed to be competing against and see how they get on.

 

[veronica71]

This made me smile


I just hate this - its women arguing with women all over SM but the men are still winning ffs - same as it ever was

 

[Pineapplexpress]

Thanks MooBelle but it's OK, some people here are very rude and it's just not for me.

You're just throwing contrary opinions about without substance and asking others to explain why they think you're wrong. That isn't debate.

People have responded to pretty much all of your posts with resources, quotes, and well reasoned and fully explained thoughts. You have not done so in return, you have just offered further questions (or the same question worded differently) and your opinions without any context as to how you reached that conclusion, to a group of people that you know already have an opposing firm opinion on the matter.

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

This is a good summary of 5-ARD which is the DSD that I think Khelif has got (same as Semenya). Essentially it only affects the external genitalia. So in countries which are poor and with limited access to good healthcare ( he is apparently from a remote village) then I can totally see how he was brought up as female. But like Semenya, he went through male puberty. Even if his parents were poorly educated, there is no way that people don’t notice their little girl turning into an adult male. I have a son. The transformation that occurs to their bodies during puberty is astounding.

He failed two independent tests to confirm eligibility to compete in women’s boxing. He did not appeal the results of those tests.

A man with malformed genitalia is not a woman.

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

Watching the head of the IOC (with two bottles of Coca Cola on the table in front of him - mustn’t upset the sponsors) saying that if you’ve been raised as a woman and have a passport that says woman then you’re a woman and if anyone has any better scientific ways of determining who women are he’s all ears was a totally surreal start to my weekend.

 

[usefullyuseless]

So the argument seems to be:
• Khelif is a biological women so should be allowed in the women's category. It's misogynistic to say otherwise;
• Khelif is trans and should be allowed in the women's category. It's transphobic to say otherwise.



No, he's a man, likely with a sex disorder. He shouldn't be in the women's category. End of story.

Also wish people would stop saying he failed a gender test, he failed a sex test.

 

[Doll Parts]

I'm going to spontaneously combust if I see one more person say he was born a female. He may have been assigned female at birth, but he was always a male. You'd think the people who talk about doctors wrongly assigning people's sex at birth all.the.time. would get this, right? It's one of the few times when they'd actually be correct!

 

[Metropolis]