Gender Discussion #53

[maytoseptember]

To my mind, if Caster wants to compete as a woman, they would need to have the testosterone reducing drugs, but I can equally see why someone may not want to change the hormones their body naturally produces

I agree on both counts. Caster tried testosterone suppressing drugs but, unsurprisingly, felt like tit and didn’t run well. Caster only wins because he’s a biological male competing in the female category.

I believe Caster knew the truth about his DSD well before he was winning medals on the world stage. This alleged female birth cert at age 16 would corroborate the theory that Caster was scouted as someone who could masquerade as female, and this wasn’t an entirely uncommon practice in certain African nations.

Edit: Cross posted with @SkippyDoo

 

[PryingPenny]

A lot of PR has been done to convince us all that Caster is an “exceptional” case of someone raised as a girl who didn’t know they had male anatomy, but it’s more straightforward than this in reality.

You're still missing my point. At what time in their life did it become obvious they were male? If it wasn't obvious in childhood and they were raised as a girl, this is a lot to have to deal with and process for a person.

 

[Weebles Wobble]

Okay fellow Terfs, here's how we can make the world a better place! (For Trans people, of course).

 

[SkippyDoo]

You're still missing my point. At what time in their life did it become obvious they were male? If it wasn't obvious in childhood and they were raised as a girl, this is a lot to have to deal with and process for a person.

I am not missing your point, I am making a different one.

I have sympathy for any private struggle Caster has had due to the way Caster’s sex was revealed, but I do not believe the publicity around this the way it is sold to us. There is strong evidence Caster lives as a male in Caster’s private life. It also, despite the personal difficulty it causes Caster, is unfair on the women who have to compete with CS, and ultimately one person’s feelings don’t win over the integrity of female sport, in my view.

So all the arguments about what Caster goes through emotionally are not relevant to whether Caster can compete with females, and I don’t like seeing them brought into the equation. Purely in terms of a human thing, sure, I feel for Caster, but Caster knows Caster is male, so does everyone else, and childhood history and struggles doesn’t put Caster in the female category. I’m sorry if we have to move the goalposts for Caster after a while competing in women’s athletics but that’s how it is and appeals to emotion have no place in that specifically. That rather sounds like women being told to be nice and make some room on a podium for a male to me. The answer must be no.

 

[DoraMaar]

You're still missing my point. At what time in their life did it become obvious they were male? If it wasn't obvious in childhood and they were raised as a girl, this is a lot to have to deal with and process for a person.

From the 2015 interview, he grew up as a boy, wanted to be a footballer or a runner. The female birth cert was issued when he was 16 - male puberty would have been well established by that time.

 

[PryingPenny]

I am not missing your point, I am making a different one.

To me, this is an issue which can be dealt with firmly but with compassion too, so I wouldn't have the same vitriol in this situation as I would against someone obviously an AGP wanting to be in a women's changing room.

I think we aren't arguing against each other, just making different points. I feel for those who feel they are in 'the wrong body' but don't think surgery would 'fix' this issue for them, they are dysphoric. However for Caster this is an actual case where they may feel like a man but not have the male body on the outside, so there is a real case for hormone therapy or surgery, but that would mean not competing in women's sports for sure

 

[SkippyDoo]

To me, this is an issue which can be dealt with firmly but with compassion too, so I wouldn't have the same vitriol in this situation as I would against someone obviously an AGP wanting to be in a women's changing room.

I think we aren't arguing against each other, just making different points. I feel for those who feel they are in 'the wrong body' but don't think surgery would 'fix' this issue for them, they are dysphoric. However for Caster this is an actual case where they may feel like a man but not have the male body on the outside, so there is a real case for hormone therapy or surgery, but that would mean not competing in women's sports for sure

Caster has an intersex condition and it’s tough. I had a family member with one who couldn’t father children biologically and it hurt him deeply. But intersex people do fall into male or female categories, with health conditions attached, and Caster is male. It’s only because some parts of society see femaleness as “lacking” a certain part of male anatomy or as “non-male” rather than asking whether Caster has any female characteristics (and he does not), that Caster was ever considered female (if he really was). If he really was, it’s not Caster’s fault, but it’s nothing we can fix by bending the rules for a man to win women’s titles.

In that sense, that a female “doesn’t have something” — as opposed to DOES have something (Caster has no womb or ovaries, and has undescended testes by all accounts, because Caster is male), our whole framing of sex is a little strange. It’s women’s anatomy that is much more complicated than a man’s for the purpose of giving birth to a child. And Caster has none of it. A male with a health condition isn’t, of course, a female.

Caster must have every health support and understanding for the condition he was born with, but he’s a man. That might have been found out later. I suspect it was known earlier. But let’s say it was later for argument’s sake.

Now we know, he can’t compete with women.

 

[Vacuous]

I love Birdy Rose. I wear her t shirts with pride. Actual pride not Transprideshit.

 

[maytoseptember]

You're still missing my point. At what time in their life did it become obvious they were male?

Well, Caster isn’t going to answer this honestly, is he? He doesn’t even fess up to being a biological male. But I think you are being very charitable to think that there’s a chance that Caster’s entire childhood and adolescence was spent believing he was a girl.

From Mumsnet:

 

[VC10]

If there’s two words I loathe at the moment it’s, “Be kind”. Basic being kind isn’t the issue. There’s no need for people to be nasty or hurt anyones feelings deliberately, but this isn’t what it means. It’s basically telling women to put up or shut up. Put their feelings and emotions second, usually to accommodate men and not upset them, however awful they are. It’s something that’s always struck me as weird. Men are portrayed as “big, tough, strong etc” yet women pander and mollycoddle them like little babies. I’ve never, ever felt less important than men, and I’m far from a confident person. I’m a terf and proud of it.

I find most of the #bekind Brigade are really #becunts , so duck them.

 

[DoraMaar]

From the 2015 interview, he grew up as a boy, wanted to be a footballer or a runner. The female birth cert was issued when he was 16 - male puberty would have been well established by that time.

 

[SkippyDoo]

Well, Caster isn’t going to answer this honestly, is he? He doesn’t even fess up to being a biological male. But I think you are being very charitable to think that there’s a chance that Caster’s entire childhood and adolescence was spent believing he was a girl.

From Mumsnet:

View attachment 2557005

Yes indeed. What was known for some time, was Caster might fall into a grey area for the rules of international sport. The “Caster was raised as female and always thought he was female until the shocking truth was revealed later” narrative is not one I personally believe. There may have been some initial confusion because of Caster’s anatomy at birth, but there is evidence Caster was treated as male until competitive support came into the equation.

It’s important for those who want Caster and SA to keep the results and titles to keep hammering Caster’s supposed “lived experience” though, because women must be kind etc etc, but all this impact on Caster’s mental health stuff is, to me, laying it on a bit thick at this stage and is frankly manipulative.

By all means, Caster must get any necessary therapy if it’s somehow difficult to accept that he’s male, but Caster IS male and even if we accept the “official” story of his life, has already known for years. The shock is over, the revelation is out there. I don’t mean to be insensitive but we all go through difficult things. I don’t understand why Caster having a gender confusion, even if true, would outweigh the experience of women who trained for athletics events being denied proper sporting competitions. Why are we so bothered about males being told no in so many different fields? It’s hard on someone told no, it’s hard on the athlete who loses, it’s hard on the athlete who gets an injury right before the Olympics, it’s hard on female athletes who lose / can’t get sponsorship when pregnant… it’s all hard.

I agree that Caster is a little different in history to a male in a sport who switches gender and expects to compete in the female version of the sport, but Caster is still the same biological sex as that person. The answer is still no, and male feelings don’t outweigh female ones.

 

[VC10]

View attachment 2557042

No, of course they don't.
bleeping ludicrous statement.

 

[judgejohndeed]

but all this impact on Caster’s mental health stuff is, to me, laying it on a bit thick at this stage and is frankly manipulative.

I agree and at the risk of sounding cold - I don't care. Caster's mental health is not my responsibility, nor the responsibility of female sportswomen, nor the responsibility of women as a population. None of us raised him to be confused, if that is what happened. IMO, someone who is a real, committed sportsperson would want fairness in sport to be upheld, and would step away from taking winning spots from their rightful winners. If Caster refuses to do that and won't enter the male categories, it says a lot about him and whether he actually 'just wants to compete' (as we are always hearing, 'I just want to pee' 'I just want to compete' except only in the wrong place). There isn't, and shouldn't be, any glory at all in 'winning' when you have a known, unfair advantage

 

[SkippyDoo]

I agree and at the risk of sounding cold - I don't care. Caster's mental health is not my responsibility, nor the responsibility of female sportswomen, nor the responsibility of women as a population. None of us raised him to be confused, if that is what happened. IMO, someone who is a real, committed sportsperson would want fairness in sport to be upheld, and would step away from taking winning spots from their rightful winners. If Caster refuses to do that and won't enter the male categories, it says a lot about him and whether he actually 'just wants to compete' (as we are always hearing, 'I just want to pee' 'I just want to compete' except only in the wrong place). There isn't, and shouldn't be, any glory at all in 'winning' when you have a known, unfair advantage

You’re right. What about the mental health of someone who is totally useless at competitive sport? Perhaps we should send them to the Olympics anyway. No? But their parents raised them with the expectation they could go!!!

I don’t care. I don’t look like Charlize Theron, I will never win an Olympic medal, I don’t have a million pounds in my bank account. I was raised to think people would be decent to me if I were decent to them and it hasn’t panned out, where is my compensation?! Life is not fair. We need to drop this “Caster was raised as a girl” stuff. First of all, there are indications he was not. Second of all, so what if he was? — as you say, certainly that isn’t international female sport’s problem to solve. He was raised under a misapprehension, by all means let Caster work that out with his own team. What if a person were raised as the wrong sex by their parent who deliberately misled them, perhaps we should let them into female sport too? CS isn’t a special case, he's male, should be end of discussion really.

It’s also important for how we think of intersex people to be clear on all this— they don’t prove sex doesn’t exist. Quite the opposite. You see people all over Twitter claiming Caster is a “hermaphrodite.” Caster is intersex and also clearly male. He isn’t in the middle of anything. He’s a male with some health issues.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

No, of course they don't.
bleeping ludicrous statement.

Didnt he wonder where his breasts were as he hit puberty ? Didn’t he wonder why he wasn’t having periods ? I know he’s from SA, but he’s doing them a huge disservice pretending they are some backward third world country with no clue.

 

[maytoseptember]

Didnt he wonder where his breasts were as he hit puberty ? Didn’t he wonder why he wasn’t having periods ? I know he’s from SA, but he’s doing them a huge disservice pretending they are some backward third world country with no clue.

Yes! I wanted to raise this earlier. So many assumptions that Caster was born into utter poverty with zero healthcare and not much more in the form of education.

I truly don’t know anything about Caster’s life story, but it’s certainly convenient to let people keep believing that it was just unthinkable for a child with a DSD to be diagnosed in the backwaters of South Africa in the 1990s.

One other thing on the topic of being African - you can be damn sure that the likes of Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui,Francine Niyonsaba, their coaches and their national athletics committees traded on old racist tropes around black women “looking like men” to get away with this con. No one was brave enough to voice what they saw.

Will these medals ever be taken away and awarded to the real female winners? Or are the IOC not brave enough to admit they fucked up?

 

[DoraMaar]

Yes! I wanted to raise this earlier. So many assumptions that Caster was born into utter poverty with zero healthcare and not much more in the form of education.

I truly don’t know anything about Caster’s life story, but it’s certainly convenient to let people keep believing that it was just unthinkable for a child with a DSD to be diagnosed in the backwaters of South Africa in the 1990s.

One other thing on the topic of being African - you can be damn sure that the likes of Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui,Francine Niyonsaba, their coaches and their national athletics committees traded on old racist tropes around black women “looking like men” to get away with this con. No one was brave enough to voice what they saw.

View attachment 2557100

Will these medals ever be taken away and awarded to the real female winners? Or are the IOC not brave enough to admit they fucked up?

and this is what CS says about one of the women who lost out to men in Rio - a man telling a woman to shut up, no surprise there.

 

[usefullyuseless]

Okay fellow Terfs, here's how we can make the world a better place! (For Trans people, of course).

It would make my life a lot easier if everyone could just give me €100 each Think about meeeeeee!!!

 

[PryingPenny]

View attachment 2557100

Will these medals ever be taken away and awarded to the real female winners? Or are the IOC not brave enough to admit they fucked up?

I don't think that biological males should be allowed to compete against women. But it seems like the guidelines aren't consistent at all, so you can run at a shorter distance but not a longer one if you have higher testosterone, and you can have testosterone 4 times higher than an average woman. But if a woman were to take testosterone to boost her performance would this actually be allowed?