Gender Discussion #48

[witchofwestbyfleet]

I need to preface this with the fact I’ve never watched this, but have read a couple of recaps of the first season out of curiosity.

I wonder what came first - the character or the desire to cast the actress? Hasn’t she gone the full non binary nonsense in recent years? I remember watching Madam Secretary and she appeared in the latter seasons with the buzz cut/masculine appearance etc but was still she/her.

I kind of got the impression the character Che was a part written for her, and that was part of the reason the character was so awful. Ticking the NB/inclusive boxes rather than being character or story driven.

I think Che was written for her but it seems to be a "rule" now that if an actor comes out as trans/non-binary the character has to go through the same. I can think of at least a dozen examples off the top of my head and I don't even watch much western media. One of the worst (IMO) was Chilling Adventures of Sabrina where her friend became a trans "boy" in series 2 and there was an entire subplot about the TiF fighting for the right to use toilets/changing rooms with boys that were twice her size and had sexually harassed her. That'll end well ...

I'm on a forum for cinema fans and they introduced a rule specifically for The Flash discussion that anyone who doesn't use they/them pronouns for Ezra Miller or implies any relation between his sex and his crimes against women risks being warned/banned. It's even in the thread title, I get so angry just looking at it

 

[Milliemoo99]

See, I think your decision to carry on with that line of argument is a form of deflection. I've already said I gave my views and hence I'm not shying away from it, but you keep repeating yourself anyway to try and discredit me.

I do think many parents would object to their children being taught about the word gay. Look in Florida at DeSantis' 'don't say gay' bill. We can see it happening. And that's the kind of thing that's leading me to say what I'm saying. Look, I'd love to live in your world where you seem to think that wouldn't be an issue, but I'm just being realistic.

I like the fact that you are willing to come on this thread and discuss and present a different opinon to others. As I think discussion is important.

I disagree completely though about the word 'cis' as I think its unnecessary and tries to change the essence of how I am described. I am a woman, it doesnt need anything else.
And I was wondering if perhaps you might accept the frustration about the word cis, if I suggested that instead of describing yourself as gay, changes to current thinking, decide that the word Gay by itself isnt enough. The word is going to need to be redefined. So everyone else, decides they need to clarify the words by describing you as a bxys gay cis man. In theory there isnt anything wrong with the words themselves, its just.....
why? The word didnt need to be redefined, it was already clear, or should have already been clear. ( i used bxys to define born xy and added an s.)
---

Exactly this, and the fertility industry has really done a number on society which, in turn, has affected the way births are recorded - with absolutely no concern for the psychological welfare of the child and their unusual origins.

First we had sperm donors fathering hundreds of kids (and, quite often, the child never being told they were donor conceived)

Now we have les couples who do IVF, take eggs from Woman 1 and implant into Woman 2. Both women recorded on birth certificate

Also gay men who take an egg from Donor 1, implant into Gestational Surrogate 2. Both men recorded on birth certificate

TIFs who get pregnant, sometimes by male partners (occasionally TIMs), sometimes by sperm donors, then crying when they can’t be listed as “father” on the birth certificate. Hello Freddy McConnell.

Or, thinking of Jake and Hannah Graf, being a TIM and a TIF hiring a surrogate to birth the child using the TIFs frozen eggs.

Straight and gay couples alike commissioning surrogates to carry babies while they’re already pregnant themselves (like the Baldwins and the Legends) or hiring two surrogates at the same time to produce babies just a few months apart (Adam Kay). How are the kids supposed to explain a six month age gap?

I’m really not coming at it from a conservative standpoint, saying that babies should only be born from hetero relationships. What I do think is that the fertility industry consciously erases the concept of bio mother and bio father, purely to massage the egos of same sex and trans identified parents in particular - and this harms the children psychologically.

Up until relatively recently, lesbians and gay men used to enter into arrangements with friends. I know a les mum who used a friend as a sperm donor, and the father plays a role in the children’s lives.

Why did we stop doing that? Clue… it’s

This is a minefield isnt it. There was/is meant to be scientific ethics taught to go alongside the science itself. This hasnt really ever been properly qualified. So we end up with confusion on a massive scale.

One of my biggest worries from the whole IVF situation, as well as the confusion of male and female. Is the morality and practicalities of paying for a baby to be be born.
I am probably oversimplifying it massively, but I do worry about it complicating the entitlement of parents. In school, I have met, parents who have a child conceived by IVF, and it is usually just an only child, who often spoil that child massively, but who also find it tricky to understand that this perfect, much wanted child can misbehave, or do anything wrong. In some ways it isnt really the childs fault, but.....

I wish there was more......survival of the fittest kind of attitude as well. A bit less wrapping children up in cotton wool and expecting them to be perfect. With smaller families, and so much invested in the one or two children families tend to have, there isnt a lot of space for children to be dragged up and finding their own feet!

 

[Peachsquish]

From twitter

 

[Somerset girl]

From twitter

And still some people defend them

 

[Ensay]

I like the fact that you are willing to come on this thread and discuss and present a different opinon to others. As I think discussion is important.

I disagree completely though about the word 'cis' as I think its unnecessary and tries to change the essence of how I am described. I am a woman, it doesnt need anything else.
And I was wondering if perhaps you might accept the frustration about the word cis, if I suggested that instead of describing yourself as gay, changes to current thinking, decide that the word Gay by itself isnt enough. The word is going to need to be redefined. So everyone else, decides they need to clarify the words by describing you as a bxys gay cis man. In theory there isnt anything wrong with the words themselves, its just.....
why? The word didnt need to be redefined, it was already clear, or should have already been clear. ( i used bxys to define born xy and added an s.)

Ref the first bit thanks for saying that. I agree discussion is important and I'm not doing it to be contrary.

Ref the second bit I think it's a false equivalence because I'm not saying you (or anyone else) has to change how they refer to themselves. I'm just saying if some people want to use the word 'cis' as a descriptor I think it's OK and that I don't think it's a slur. I accept you and many others think differently and I know neither of us will change our minds, so I won't launch into a long post that repeats my viewpoint.

 

[Milliemoo99]

Just been looking at Sara Ramirez, the actor that plays the character of Che in ''And just like that'' and I am so so confused!

I loved her character in Grays anatomy, and as she played a female character, surely we should still refer to her character as female from this period?

She started as a female singer, presumably with a female voice, soprano , contralto etc. But is now non binary, so what kind of singing does she now do?, What are non binary singing ranges? How do you diferentiate these from tradtional female or male ranges? Which characters would they play now if they did an onstage musical?

She came out as non binary during a period when she was still married to her husband. So how does she or others perceive marriage? Is marriage meant to be an open relationship for everyone? How can you be non binary in a heterosexual marriage? What happened to the idea of being faithful in marriage? or even faithful in a committed relationship? is this still a thing, or in todays world is marriage irrelevant and meaningless?

*I appreciate some people do make mistakes in relationships, but surely out of respect you should be left and out of that relationship before any public speeches about your sexuality or new relationships?

I saw the character of Che briefly in ''and just like that'' and disliked them intensely. But thats the trouble with that show, its full of characatures, none of the characters are actually rounded and believable!

 

[Vanelope]

From twitter

Hang on, my ring finger is longer than my index finger.
Oh no - I have MANHANDS

or I don’t, I have woman hands because I’m a woman no matter what I or my hands look like.

 

[HeadlessPostman]

Pass the sick bag ! This is all of sorts of cringe who on earth calls their 18 yo kiddo ?!

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Pass the sick bag ! This is all of sorts of cringe who on earth calls their 18 yo kiddo ?!

It really is the first of a long list of red flags isn't it!?

 

[DoraMaar]

Pass the sick bag ! This is all of sorts of cringe who on earth calls their 18 yo kiddo ?!

I wonder how she reacted when the X-ray results showed 'kiddo's' female anatomy

 

[Gloria Rostron]

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

Why not? No more ridiculous than a man identifying as a woman.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Now they've really lost it. A person transitioning from male to female will never give birth!! WTF!

Yep cos the maternity wards are heaving with pregnant men with wicks and prostates.
Given the horrendous death rates of Mums and newborns in some health trusts, perhaps they could focus on that instead.

 

[tinnyhinny]

From twitter

Terrifying really what goes on in some people’s heads. This acknowledging of AGPs under the Trans umbrella really has opened the floodgates for all these violent and perverted men to feel accepted, and in warped circles even celebrated, for saying these sorts of things.

 

[Metropolis]

At least she has the awareness to say she doesn’t randomly shout ‘daddy’ as that’s involving other people in something they didn’t consent to (mind you, I don’t know what the kids in the playground thought of her acting like that!). In stark contrast to many TIM who go out of their way to involve women in their fetishes for ‘affirmation’ reasons.

 

[nothanksbabes]

It does seem unfair, surely there could also be a secondary process which keeps the birth certificate as fact but allows the les/gay partner/spouse to also have parental responsibility for the child.

Otherwise it really seems blatant homophobia to take a child from all they've known just to shove them with biological relatives who could be happy to have the child but also this could include relatives who didnt approve of the gay/les couple.

These are separate issues though. I only lived with my birth mother for the first four months of my life. She's still the name on my birth certificate because it's a statement of fact and a historical record.

There are other legal avenues concerning where children live and who they're looked after by. The purpose of a birth certificate is to record facts.

 

[smellyfootballboots]

Pass the sick bag ! This is all of sorts of cringe who on earth calls their 18 yo kiddo ?!

This woman is captured by gender ideology. Her language is 100% from the US internet forums. That in itself it disturbing.

 

[Weebles Wobble]

Pass the sick bag ! This is all of sorts of cringe who on earth calls their 18 yo kiddo ?!

Is there a reason why an 18 year old adult woman can't speak for herself? Why is mum mollycoddling her?

 

[Notworthy]

View attachment 2314549

Is there a reason why an 18 year old adult woman can't speak for herself? Why is mum mollycoddling her?

There was no barrier to access just 2 stupid people expecting their delusions to be pandered to.

 

[Scotch Mist]

These are separate issues though. I only lived with my birth mother for the first four months of my life. She's still the name on my birth certificate because it's a statement of fact and a historical record.

There are other legal avenues concerning where children live and who they're looked after by. The purpose of a birth certificate is to record facts.

Yes I agree. There must be plenty of children who have a stepfather raising them who is not listed on their birth certificate because he's not the biological father. It doesn't just apply to same sex couples.