Gender Discussion #35

[smellyfootballboots]

The crutch there is you won’t ever considering transgender women anything other than men and for that reason as men can be dangerous, all transgender people don’t deserve respect.

By all accounts I March for womens rights to protection in todays society, I’ve stood their with other women screaming for those protections. But I’ve used gender neutral toilets everywhere, I’ve never felt unsafe because they are mixed.

Your fear of men and the capability of a bad one is disrupting you from giving compassion to people who just want to live their lives, not rape people. But I’m sure you let men into your home, to share a bathroom in your house, to even enter in a relationship with one if you’re aren’t gay. Not all trans people are going to try and prey on you. Go after the men who are, not the community as a whole. A young transgender woman, who before transitioning was a gay man, hoping to live a life without discrimination and looks on every corner, just wanting to find a man for themselves. Do they deserve the category of predators you are putting them in

Do YOU understand that men and women are vastly different?
Do YOU know why women have sex segregated spaces in the first place?
Do YOU know that men cannot change sex to become women?
Why do YOU feel giving away women's rights to men is appropriate?
Why do YOU feel that YOUR voice should be heard over women's voices? (I think you are a man BTW)

It is not for women to explain why we wont accept men as women. We simply dont have to.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

(not censoring account name because it has a blue tick) Do these people ever get tired of equating concern for women’s safety/rights with anti-Black racism?

 

[petitspois]

A basic premise of safeguarding is that you take account of what could happen and do all you can to prevent it. Therefore, women need safe spaces.

I don't care if they are nice men or kind men or would never hurt a fly. Some would so they can all get out. And that should be the end of that.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

What the actual fuck is that worksheet. Designed to normalise the idea of sex as a spectrum? It’s not normal to know your hormone levels, ok, but it’s totally normal to know your chromosomes? If my child came home with that or I found out their school had used it, I’d kick right off. Outrageous.

Don’t even get me started on asking children to draw their GENITALS. These people are sick in the head. It reminds me of the theatre show that wanted to encourage children to Google animals masturbating. It’s all just grooming. “It’s normal to draw your genitals, so it’s normal to show them to an adult!”

 

[Ekathrina]

People go to a lot of trouble to engage with posters who come on here with pro-trans opinions, to give them information and to reply to any points made. In the main they generally and repeatedly ignore peoples often very salient and well thought out posts even when they a response to claims that they themselves have made. At that point it becomes both frustrating and counter productive to bother to any great extent.
When probably the majority of us are left leaning or liberal, feminist, working class with a fair smattering of parents, LGB, neurodiverse people thrown in, it gets a bit tiresome to constantly be accused of having ‘black and white’ thinking, being privileged or right wing no matter how superficially nice the person is that’s doing it.
I also find that a lot of those people come on here and suggest that although they think trans women are women -
There should be a third space for toilets etc.
That sex offenders shouldn’t be housed in female prisons because they aren’t real trans.
That transwomen shouldn’t be allowed in womens sports.
Any one of those statements is unacceptable to the TRA’s which makes them just as much a TERF as the rest of us, ironically.

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

I don't see why I should leave and I have done nothing wrong. It is a discussion - just because my opinions on trans issues are different to yours, does not make me a troll.

I didn’t say that you should leave. You announced your flounce, then slunk back.

A reminder, in case you forgot:

So glad you felt the need to read through my historic chats. Y'all are something else. I am out of this thread.

 

[terfette]

I see some influncers /celebs posting about how mermaids is under attack apparently, does anyone know what’s going on there?
i also saw posts saying Sunak is threatening trans right with some bill…. Does anyone know what’s that about too?

Mermaids took LGB alliance to court trying to remove LGBAs charity status, drew attention to themselves, and then also one of their members was outed as massively pro pedophile. They’re under investigation and being removed from NHS, schools and council signposting etc.

They seem to have had some angry calls to their helpline.

When they say “under attack” they mean they’ve been exposed for what they are.

 

[Vanelope]

So my comment about Boots (that lacked nuance as was in a hurry) has been taken as a stick to beat the threat with. To expand.

The ad was shit, tired and tropey. The woman only wants bubble bath for Christmas etc. The teen boy wants a fancy hairdryer, and the whole minidress pink Marilyn costume and wig, lip-synching to the hairdryer fantasy, is drag / trans aesthetic. It’s a cynical ploy to get good twitter points. Despite the ubiquity on tv, drag is adult entertainment. I’d also just seen on Instagram a drag queen celebrating a 9 year old ‘drag kid’ on stage and I seem to be seeing it everywhere.

Gender non conformity is something we grew up with - the 80s - but now due to gender stereotyping it automatically means trans, this is homophobic and misogynistic.

My comment did sound - boys in dresses are bad - which is not what I think, but I was reacting to the drag kids styling more than the dress itself. If a boy wants to wear a dress he will be called a girl - and that ad was reaffirming that view. Boots would obviously have no problem with transing kids - all those prescriptions - as it is just part of big pharma now.

 

[Eveningdusk]

@SueDoyou I think it’s important to have a healthy debate and be able to freely state what that opinion is. However that’s not the way society is at the moment. Personally I believe you can’t change biological sex. It’s written in our dna down to a cellular level. it’s come to the point where having this opinion could now be considered transphobic.

There are health Concerns, religious concerns and safety concerns amongst other things. Women had their own separate spaces for a reason and now that anyone can claim to be whatever they want, those safeguards are being ripped to shreds. Not only for women but for anyone who genuinely feels they are in the wrong body and just going about their daily lives. Everyone deserves to feel safe, but at what cost? As others have quoted above there are incidences in prisons, schools, toilets Etc. Considering how small the population of trans people there supposedly is, that’s a lot of incidents. And how can you tell who is safe and genuinely trans? There needs to be other options than just ‘go where you identify’ because there are people taking advantage of it.

 

[nothanksbabes]

This reaction is tale as old as time though? I'm trying to have a conversation and I am reachable, but this attitude is why both this side and the other far reaching side can't communicate because you keep falling into this sarky disrespectful shutdown behaviour.

I'm here to learn and ask questions. I know its rich asking the internet to be respectful but I don' think I have engaged at all in this manner, I've only brought forward ideas and thoughts, never demeaned any of you.

I think you've been disingenuous. You expect everyone to respond in a tone that you find pleasing despite going over the same points repeatedly. You couch it in faux-politeness despite being pretty antagonistic. I haven't demeaned you, I've said you're engaging in tone policing, which you were.

I feel sorry too for transgender people. To go to such extent as cutting a part of yourself you have to be extremely unwell.
But it is not women’s fault. Women don’t have to accommodate everyone.
Asking the whole world to change and to allow men in our places is like forbidding everyone to drink because some people are alcoholics.

I feel for trans women who would otherwise have been gay men. I look at the likes of Ritchie in the video posted above and wonder what kind of man he might have been had he been celebrated for who he is.

I don't feel empathy for those who demand access to women's spaces and say they're better women than we are and erase the language women use to describe themselves and all the other things we talk about. They display the same patterns of behaviour as every abusive man I've ever met.

 

[ScarlettOHaha]

Simple we are women they are trans women

We are women and they are men. There are plenty of trans identified men who say they are male, that’s what we should be encouraging all of them to do. We can encourage that by saying it ourselves when discussing this issue.
I used to try and tiptoe around saying trans women and that I’d respect pronouns, but realised this is half of the problem. Pronouns encourage a belief that sex can be changed, they encourage children to think people can change sex, so we, as the adults in the room, have to be very clear and unequivocal in our language and descriptions for their sake.

This is a genuine question and I hope I don't come across as being disrespectful.
Do you think that to a TiM, having sex with a lesbian is regarded as a "trophy" in some way?

Yes it’s the ultimate affirmation if a lesbian would have sex with a man who wants to be seen as a woman.
A couple of my single lesbian friends are on dating apps, they say now admits at least 50% AGPs. If they say they aren’t interested because BIOLOGY, they are banned.
I was banned from Lesbian social groups on Facebook just for very politely talking about biology.
The lesbians who wish to stay on those sites, have to affirm the blokes. There’s so much embarrassing fawning over them, because of course they constantly post pics of themselves trying out new looks or clothes, and the lesbians say nice things.
It reminds me of those movies where a kidnapped woman has to be extra nice in order to save their lives.
What’s happened to lesbian culture is so heartbreaking.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

Absolutely we should encourage acceptance of gender non-conforming kids. But teaching that anyone can change their gender is the opposite of that

 

[mindlessness]

You can't just write off trans suicide attempts by saying there is no real evidence, from reading there definitely is. I am not trolling or a man that gave me a chuckle ngl, I think if you read my posts I'm a lot more understanding than you probably are giving me credit for. I'm just not bowing down to this idea that all trans persons have to suffer because men are bad. I'm not what I've read in earlier threads of here being 'green haired militant activists'. I fell into this thread because of another and only began trying to educate myself as I said previously when a friend of a friend transitioned later in life.

If you guys want me to leave I will too, I'm happy to leave you all to believe and be happy with where you are at. I was just trying to educate myself and in turn bring another perspective.

Trans people don't have to suffer because men are bad.

But neither should women.

I would take that as that you can't imagine it either, but I trust the people I've heard who say that that is how they feel. That their sex doesn't align with that of their mind, so they seek gender change in order to achieve that alignment. Sex as I said earlier is obviously immutable, pretty sure all trans people I have listened to have said that. No trans person I have heard from has ever claimed to change their sex.

Again, you cannot 'feel' a sex.

They 'feel' like a different gender and guess what? Gender is a social construct. I'm not obliged to sacrifice my sex-based rights for someones feelings.

Have a read through some reddit forums and you'll find plenty of trans identified males who think they can breastfeed or have periods. Sure seems like some of them think they can change sex?

 

[DoraMaar]

I bet there will be loads who do it and think its funny without thinking of what this will mean for Women in politics going forward.

A lot of people will be unaware of what is going on - they will just see a 'celebrity' name and vote without any thought. Izzard will appear on shows like Lorraine (who is a handmaiden) in heels and lipstick - but even serious political programmes will give his AGP tendencies legitimacy by not questioning the TWAW narrative.

 

[Ekathrina]

If transwomen are suffering so much harassment and are being threatened so often I’d be interested in seeing some proof of that. Are there any court cases or news articles you could point us to?
I’m willing to hazard a guess that they are probably being threatened and harassed by other men though, if it does happen, but yet it’s always women that get harangued and preached at about it. What are trans rights activists doing to try and stop men behaving in such a way? I imagine it to be sweet fuck all if I’m honest.
Pronouns are compelled speech. At one time I might have been willing to go along with it, but it became apparent that this ‘politeness’ regarding language only went one way and that if I was to say that for instance I object to being called ‘cis’ apparently I don’t have that right, so now I don’t.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Why do clowns want to see children? Children's entertainers, why do they get into the business? Are they all predators... Again just placing a sexualisation on something without considering its just another form of performance, or from what I've seen from coverage of drag story time readings from where I am from, just a character, essentially a clown reading stories.



Major agree on the adult drag shows I wouldn't dream of bringing my little one to a nightclub or adult drag show, because its not for her unless she's just that an adult.




Misinterpreted that, I get them now thank you. Why are transgender people with a GRA hated by the trans community? When I talk here about the people I would support its the trans people with GRAs or those on the way to it.



I could post a million photos here of Drag artists not caricaturing women. You have one vision of a drag queen and thats it, thats all of them. When I speak of Bowie I mean drag artists today could wear what he did and it would be drag if they portrayed it that way.

None of your questions seem to be in good faith to be honest. You're hung up on this drag queen thing when it's one facet of a much larger issue, the issue being that I have to accept men as women just because they say they are.

What is a woman? How does one "feel" like one? It's akin to religious belief, which, if you want to believe, good for you. You can't compel anyone else to believe your subjective mystical feelings though.

For what it's worth, and something I've said time and time again on this thread, I've spent my entire adult life in the LGBT community, I've seen countless drag and cabaret performances. The hubris to assume we just don't understand that it's a performance is actually quite amusing.

My drag queen friends are actually pretty embarassed by drag queen story hour, mostly because they're being misrepresented by the shittest looking lazy drag acts they've ever seen, but I suppose they're just ignorant and uninformed too .

 

[nothanksbabes]

Oh look, here's another new member who's been here twelve seconds telling a group of left wing feminists what they think. How very original.

Clothes are just clothes.

 

[Glortard]

However this is they are very funny and on point

 

[nothanksbabes]

"Gender joy", absolutely fuck off, what an utterly meaningless phrase. It's about as meaningful as me parading around admiring myself talking about goth joy when I've put my makeup and docs on.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Random thought: I was looking at Dylan's old TIKTOKS and he has a video of him saying he's not actually 100% sure he's gay, even though that's all he would present himself as in his older videos and on the hashtags while just talking about all things gay.

And why is he talking about a woman getting him pregnant? is that meant to be funny? I think he has a fetish.

I think Dylan is deeply mentally unwell and I suspect there's some homophobia in his family. I think he has a chronic need for attention and I don't think he has many real friends.