Gender Discussion #35

[Eveningdusk]

I’ve been away from this thread for a little bit and catching up I’d forgotten how angry, frustrated and sometimes hurt I can feel by the way society is going or maybe betrayed is a better word.

I feel betrayed by the idea that woman is just a feeling or a costume that anyone can wear and if they do they are considered special and rewarded before other women. I feel betrayed by our Governments, sporting bodies, educators, medical professionals and entertainments saying if we don’t agree, we are the problem / phobic etc. Rather than debating and hearing legitimate arguments about safeguarding, dignity, medical reasons and religious considerations. Everything for the 1% of society at the expense of the 99% who don’t have a choice or they will be cancelled. But of course the 1% are ‘oppressed and don’t have rights’

Mostly I feel betrayed by the idea that this is presented as inclusivity.

 

[Ekathrina]

Female to male transgender people or ‘trans men’ tend not to get much attention because generally they aren’t trying to force themselves into spaces they aren’t welcome, they aren’t likely to be given awards that are meant for men, they aren’t trying to compete in mens sports (they’d be wasting their time to be honest) and generally they do seem to just be getting on with their lives. This is because they have generally been socialised and continue to behave as, well, women.

 

[katyazamo]

You can't just write off trans suicide attempts by saying there is no real evidence, from reading there definitely is. I am not trolling or a man that gave me a chuckle ngl, I think if you read my posts I'm a lot more understanding than you probably are giving me credit for. I'm just not bowing down to this idea that all trans persons have to suffer because men are bad. I'm not what I've read in earlier threads of here being 'green haired militant activists'. I fell into this thread because of another and only began trying to educate myself as I said previously when a friend of a friend transitioned later in life.

If you guys want me to leave I will too, I'm happy to leave you all to believe and be happy with where you are at. I was just trying to educate myself and in turn bring another perspective.

The argument cannot keep coming back to suicide. Women have raised so many valid concerns about self ID and we cannot be threatened with suicide if we don't agree. That is just flat out manipulation.

I get that you're trying to find out more and I think most people accept that there are genuine trans folk out there. But we can't keep changing the boundaries because someone "feels" like a woman. It has real implications on us as a sex class and it WILL be abused by people who want to cause harm to women.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Going to read throughout the thread still I swear, just thought I should reply to this.

I'm not a trans rights activist in the slightest, I've only tried educating myself recently because its become such a large debate and like I said I know someone (not a friend, just through a friend) that came out as trans at 50 recently. I wanted to answer my questions and fears by reading.

Anyway in reply to this!

I think we as humans are never one size fits all so transgender women are all different in every regard. In a female rape survivor group I'm sure they could assess the situation and try help the woman who had gone through trauma. You are in way of asking that question implying that transgender woman is there to prey, or that the women in the group would feel uneasy because of it. Trauma is a very complex thing, I have gone through an experience in my life that would bring me close to that topic. But the conversation should be had in the group about people's comfort and then then the transgender woman who I assume is a rape survivor should be given the necessary help they need to confront their trauma.

I would have to read up on Jamie Wallis as I am not aware of them but again, I don't judge all transgender people on one person. Like I don't judge all women and their morals off of you, my mother or any one person.

We don't judge all transgender people based on one person either. But this starts to sound like "not all men".

What it boils down to is whether we are obligated to believe everything men say about themselves, and if we're obligated to participate in someone else's subjective experience of their "gender identity" over our own perception of reality.

Men have, for centuries, appointed themselves as the arbiters of what women are and how we should behave, and now they're telling us that they *are* us, and more oppressed than us. The ultimate act of misogyny.

Ultimately, MOJ stats show that 50%~ of trans "women" in UK prisons are convicted sex offenders, which is signicantly higher than the male prison population, and in the UK there is a very real danger that self-ID will become law and these male predators will be (and in some cases, already are being) housed alongside the most vulnerable of women in women's prisons. You're a survivor, as many of us are. Imagine the indignity of having to call your attacker "she" because society thinks his feelings trump your reality.

I feel for anyone experiencing discomfort with their bodies, or trauma, but I refute the idea that anyone's feelings about themselves can literally alter reality. Being a woman is being female, no more and no less.

I'd be curious as to what makes your friend think they're trans. I've yet to hear anyone who identifies as transgender do so without reliance on regressive stereotypes. "I always liked 'girl' things as a kid" etc. With the greatest of respect to those men, why should we care?

If you are genuinely interested though, I'd read about trans widows and autogynephilia, and I'd browse trans reddit. You can't spend five minutes on reddit reading the disgusting, woman hating posts by trans "women" and not wonder what the fuck we're doing pandering to these men.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

Jameela Jamil was reposting this rubbish about Rishi Sunak taking trans rights out of the equality act. How does biological women wanting the EA to state sex as biological sex taking away trans rights? What about the rights of biological women? They just don’t matter do they. Nope. It’s like me too never happened.

Jameela Jamil was reposting this rubbish about Rishi Sunak taking trans rights out of the equality act. How does biological women wanting the EA to state sex as biological sex taking away trans rights? What about the rights of biological women? They just don’t matter do they. Nope. It’s like me too never happened.

That cunt can get in the fucking bin. She'd identify as a parrot if it got her enough attention.

 

[Jayceedove]

The vast majority of trans identifying people in this country do not have a GRC nor do they intend getting one, in fact they are campaigning against the need for one to exist at all. That’s why they call it ‘self ID’. Since 2005 only 5,871 GRC’s have been issued. That’s in a country where it’s estimated there may be as many as 500,000 people identifying as transgender.

The main reason being that at present it requires several years of therapy, a medical diagnosis, two years of transition afterwards, evidence of successfully integrating into society and a gatekeeper medic to sign their name off on all that - meaning THEY have to be sure or if they let through a wrong un they might end up facing the comeback.

Even fewer have a changed birth certificate as that requires a further step - also involving doctors - after first getting a GRC.

As you can see this is really only going to be possible for those who have years of therapy not five minutes on Twitter deciding they are now trans after reading the posts of someone calling themself 'Girlwithabigdick' hidden behind some avatar or other.

Hence the insistence that all of this is 'intrusive' bureaucracy that creates huge barriers for transgender people without a diagnosis of transsexualism. Which is what the GRA also requires.

Hence why you see the hate of this word and the insistence on changing it to the word transgender instead. They want it gone because as a medical diagnosis that has to be conveyed by a doctor so it removes their ability to make this a personal lifestyle choice - which in 99% of cases today it is. Hence the push for self ID that so far only Scotland has bought and the UK government under the current regime are not going for.

Many of the things the GRA enables were done one by one with doctors long before it was created in 2004. That is how they knew exactly the numbers who permanently transitioned so had to navigate the world with no path back. Which is what transgender is not. It is an identity that CAN be changed back if they choose. So they had a close finger on how many would apply and Hansard shows doctors told the then debate on passing the law that the number was around 5000 some 18 years ago and it is still almost exactly the same number today gven population growth over two dec.ades.

The media hardly ever report these fairly signifcant facts. And for obvious reasons the transgender activists never do either as it kind of reveals the charade going on right now.


I do not trust any person who is only willing to be legally redefinied on the basis of their word or else. And neither should any of you.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

I’m literally just posing questions and soaking up information

I’ve just realised why your posts make me feel so uncomfortable and why you come across as a man. It’s not the job of women on this thread to educate you on these issues, yet you repeatedly act like it is. Go and do your own research instead of this disingenuous “what? I’m just asking questions” and come back when you’re ready to engage properly. Fine if you want to argue properly with us, but at the moment you’re just throwing out random word salad and silly questions. It’s tiresome and posters are wasting a lot of time on answering you. You come across as very entitled, which seems very, well… male.

 

[Ekathrina]

Drag is only adult entertainment if the the act is adult. Just say it as it is, you hate seeing men in a dress and think its inappropriate. I've only had a daughter but if I had a son who wanted to wear a dress, go for it.

I hate to break it to you but I think a lot of us grew up in the eighties mate, when men wearing what was seen as traditionally feminine attire was nothing particularly out of the ordinary. I went to goth and alternative clubs and had a succession of boyfriends who wore frilly shirts and hairspray so it’s a bit laughable when someone comes along and lectures about what we do or don’t find appropriate.
Also I do have a son, he wears eyeliner, paints his nails and has long hair and likes KPop clothes. He uses my eyeliner and nail polish. That’s how bothered by the ‘inappropriateness’ I am.

 

[mindlessness]

Has anyone seen Corbyn on twitter criticising Badenoch for criticising Pink News in a speech. It’s triggered some good tweet responses.



The speech in question:


Also, Izzard on Rogan is something I can’t fathom watching (justified by this clip I think )

 

[nothanksbabes]

Why do they always have the lamest, most lowest common denominator proclivities too? They assume the rest of us are vanilla because we're not publicly blathering on about pissing all over DFS's finest, when it's blindingly obvious the closest they've had to a sexual encounter is a tug in their mam's back bedroom. Grim.

 

[Scotch Mist]

A while ago, I was becoming convinced that this concern about the trans agenda was all in my head and that I was overstating the importance of the whole thing. I thought perhaps I was only reading and seeing stuff about it because I was seeking it out. But in the past few days a lot of people I follow on social media have posted stuff like "trans rights are human rights" and fawning posts over Dylan Mulvaney, and these are people who I would previously have credited with intelligence. What sane person actually thinks that it's OK to let men with penises into a rape crisis centre or that Dylan is anything but a narcissistic creep?! I have adopted a zero tolerance policy and have done an instant unfollow of these people. I don't care what people wear, how they dress but it will never make them a woman and if that makes me a transphobe, so bloody be it.

I feel your pain regarding the capture of everyone with this crap. I've hardly got any friends left now and feel isolated because of mass indoctrination.

I met up with a group of women I hadn't seen for ages the other day. They are all women I knew from years ago because our kids went to the same school. They are all educated liberal, middle class, and a couple of them are teachers. All are well read and intelligent but seem to blindly accept that Eddie Izzard is now a woman because he says so.

There was a discussion about a man let out of Broadmoor who murdered his family. Now he's a woman apparently. I made a remark along the lines of 'this man is obviously still mentally ill' and was told I should get back to the 1970s

 

[Ekathrina]

Women aren’t being forced to repress their sexuality, they are being encouraged to express it - but only in a way which benefits men and makes them a marketable commodity and a product for exploitation.

 

[Nelly's mum]

Simple we are women they are trans women

So, how would you differenciate between us and trans women?

Easy - we are women and they are men

 

[Autumncolors]

It's disgusting and honestly heartbreaking that we are being made a mockery of by these fantasists.
I am not 'cis', I am not 'afab', I'm just a woman.

Real womanhood isn't pornified shite like 'treat me like a slut', half-drown me in piss, 'I do anal and squirt by default'.

Sorry, I know we all know this. I just wanted a bit of a moan. I feel like the world is being conned.

Exactly, we are not a category. We are not cis.
If cis women are women whose gender matches their sex, they don’t exist. No woman on this planet is ok with what it means to be a woman as a gender.
This vocabulary is made and used to dominate us. Women are assaulted, are harassed, are raped, they are less payed, they are pressured into pleasing men. It means that being “cis” is agreeing with this.
We are not responsible for how we are treated. We are not cis. We are women.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

While the NHS might do genital surgeries to a higher standard than private cowboy doctors, I question whether we should be offering these operations at all. Someone presenting to a therapist with body dysmorphia isn't put on a waiting list for a nose job or boob implants. Why do we treat what is essentially body dysmorphia around biological sex differently from standard body dysmorphia?

 

[Jayceedove]

QUOTE Suedoyou

Can I ask you, when did you notice the real change from people happy to define themselves as transexual and thus changing to transgender with the previous being 'offensive'?

I grew up with someone who was intersex and became very aware of the change in language around that because of her journey and what became wrong to say over time as things do.

Also, were you saying that you think 93% of transgender women are AGP? And if AGP is quite an inward attraction of oneself as a women, what is it that leads people into predatory behaviour towards others?

Can I ask how you react when you are not spoken of with preferred pronouns.

Thank you for sharing!

END QUOTE


Transsexual is not a definition it is a medical diagnosis. It is what we are.

We refer to ourselves in day to day life with our names as we are not obsessed with identity. Oddly we chat about family and the like not some hive mind obsessed with victory as we are all unique people with interests, ideas and things more interesting than dull trans ideology.

Possibly why transsexuals never had a community. No need to band together to fight for anything as we have had all the respect and rights we needed from the off until transgederism marched in like an invading army of soldier ants determined to eat everything on the picnic table and ruin all the normal folk's day. We transitioned to live our lives not becoime famous for being dfferent.

We transitioned into being normal at last - nothing else - and certainly not as transgender seem to do - to be special.

I do not pretend to understand it nor judge why transgenderism is different. But I can say I find stereotypes demeaning and restrictive and I do not have and never have had a gender identity to express. So I do not embrace the word transgender since it would imply that I do.

As for AGP being an inward attraction I am no psychologist so I do not understand. But note that it is seemingly very dependent on others validating their identity and seems to result in seething rage if others do not play along. That sounds like an identity conflict to me. A lack of full self belief in the reality of their self identity if it requires others to affirm it all the time. Otherwse if you know who you are is that not all that matters? Why should it be necessary to force others into believing it too? They have a right to not if they choose.

And as for tyour pronoun question afaik it was half a century ago in a chemist shop on my first day post transition. I smiled,left the shop, never returned and he lost my custom to another store nearby. That was for me how to deal with it. He clearly did not want me there. So I obliged withot creating a scene. Transsexuals understand we are edge cases that people will struggle to understand. Heck we struggle with understanding ourselves. So anyone has a right to think differently about us. They might even sometimes be right.

50 years later my life has not crumbled because of that long forgotten incident. To be honest anyone transitioning with such a fragile sense of who they are that someone 'misgendering' them in a conversation is going to destroy their core identity is probably well advised never transitioning.

Coercing people by demand is amost certainly going to result in more and more people calling you what they choose in defiance of what you might want to hear and so is about as counter productive as could be.

Comes over as either very naive or arrogant. It is certainly not a reasonable human reaction - more like a selfish act.

I have long lived by the maxim that you earn respect from other people and do not demand it with menaces. I was brought up that way and the doctors I saw over the years drilled into us that we were invited into our strange hinterland but maybe not welcomed by all and to be aware and ready to step back if we saw that. We should expect some confusion and concern and be careful over what boundaries we crossed as some would likely be a step too far. We built our own bridges slowly that way.

Give and take works,. Coercion rarely does.

I prefer that people respect me for who I am and that requires understanding other people's feelings. Not insisting they must agree with yours.

It is rather odd to me that so many people wanting to demand a woman's pronoun act surprisingly like the men I have had the occasional pleasure to know but the also often displeasure to notice when they see you as a woman in daily lfe tend to always think they know best.

I let you into a secret. It is not true..

 

[Deeznutslol]

Oh yes, nothing says stunning and brave like a bloke claiming to be "non binary". All the privilege of being a man but with a little eyeliner thrown on top! Sam Smith is an entitled twat.

Does anyone remember when a fan went up to Sam Smith to say hi and one of his large male friends physically attacked her and called her a dumb bitch or something, meanwhile Sam just stood back and let it happen? Very stunning and brave of him indeed

I am guessing you haven't heard Cardi B - WAP

View attachment 1698278View attachment 1698281

Ah mate why don’t you just go and enjoy another golden shower and stop trolling this thread

 

[mindlessness]

Is that though that the process is a lot harder to achieve and in itself takes time. I can't imagine feeling the opposite sex in my head and then having to go through what I assume is all those obstacles without any form of severe anxiety or social fear.

You can't' feel' like the opposite sex. Sex is immutable.

The majority of transgender women I have listened to on podcasts, or read online don't think that they are biological women though? I've not heard one transgender person in what I've been watching or read that has ever described themselves as that?

Surely the answer because its a tough one for both sides is LGBT wings of prisons, funding is obviously an issue there but surely that is the best option. Transgender women would be raped in mens prisons, you can't deny that, it already happens I'm sure to men in those places. Putting sexual predators in with us too shouldn't happen, if your crime says you assault women don't put them in with us. I agree. I would say the same about lesbian offenders in that regard.

Why are you prioritising trans identified men over biological women? Why should lesbian biological women have to share with trans identified men in some LGBT wing?

 

[Ekathrina]

As a CIS Woman, I am trying to look at both sides of the argument.

Transwomen (and men's) rights to be who they want and identify how they choose should be respected.

It should also be respected that some CIS women and CIS men feel uncomfortable sharing toilets/changing rooms with people who have a different chromosome combination.

My solution would be to have a CIS male toilets and a CIS female toilets and a gender non conforming toilet for those who are not CIS.

That way, all concerns would be addressed and trans people would not be denied of their right to identify how they choose.

As a CIS Woman, I am trying to look at both sides of the argument.

Transwomen (and men's) rights to be who they want and identify how they choose should be respected.

It should also be respected that some CIS women and CIS men feel uncomfortable sharing toilets/changing rooms with people who have a different chromosome combination.

My solution would be to have a CIS male toilets and a CIS female toilets and a gender non conforming toilet for those who are not CIS.

That way, all concerns would be addressed and trans people would not be denied of their right to identify how they choose.

The solution of having a third space for trans and non binary people has been talked about for years. They aren’t interested in it and most TRA’s consider the mere suggestion of it to be transphobic. They want free and uncontrolled access to womens single sex spaces and nothing else will do.
In truth, it isn’t really about the space itself - it’s the women in the space that are important because that’s what ‘affirms’ them and they don’t care about how uncomfortable that makes us.
Another solution would be that men made an effort to make mens single sex spaces safe and accepting for all men, but I think we all know that’s never going to happen.

 

[Our Cilla]

From twitter

FFS if Izzard wins the seat we are fucked. And any people in Sheffield who vote for him need to hang their woman hating heads in shame.