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klarakluckbag

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On the subject of suffragettes, I watched Lucy Worsley's Suffragettes documentary on Iplayer (highly recommend) and the things those women went through less than 100 years ago to see women treated as human beings... If they'd seen the future, that we'd be called bigots for the shocking suggestion that women are by definition female, I wouldn't have blamed them for not bothering.
I think it's often quite difficult to make young women understand just how privileged they are, when compared to their mothers, grandmothers and so on. Young handmaidens like Emma Watson for example, take it for granted that they can go to uni, buy their own house or car, go out at night unattended if they wish (they may not feel particularly safe when doing so, but that's another story 🙄), have a career of their choosing, have as many or as few children as they want, with or without a partner. It's no longer legal for their husbands to beat or rape them, they aren't regarded as "property" in law, they aren't expected to "obey" anyone as part of their marriage contract, and they don't have to stary married if they don't want to.

It has taken hundreds of years for women to get these very basic rights, and that's only after a lot of blood, sweat and tears along the way. We still don't get equal pay, flexible working and affordable childcare as standard. We're still being beaten, raped and killed by men who get away with it. We're still expected to do the bulk of the child-rearing and house-keeping, despite what the tv ads try to portray. And we (UK) live in one of the most privileged societies in the world, millions of women aren't nearly so fortunate.

These hard-won rights are not just theirs to give away, they belong to us all, and we're not letting go. I'm sick to death of being compared to racists and homophobes, just because I'm concerned for the welfare of women and girls. If that's the only reason they can come up with for taking away our sex-based rights, they're on shaky ground. WOC and gay women agree with us too, and they're not happy at being called racist or bigoted either. 😡😡😡
 
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Deeznutslol

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So glad you felt the need to read through my historic chats. Y'all are something else. I am out of this thread. 🤢
Well for a start you’ve got a public profile, secondly it’s not historic, it was yday and thirdly there has been incidences before where males have come onto tattle pretending to be female saying some messed up sexual shit
 
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Mugglewump

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I most certainly do not let hundreds of strange men into my home to use my toilet.

Men are not women.
Women's spaces are for women, adult human females.
 
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DoraMaar

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The statement still seems to convey that they think woman wanting a separate space is bigotry ignoring the likes of the equality act along with recent court rulings. Men in dresses it seems are still the top trump card.
Alternative versions....

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thinkofacoolname

Active member
Where is that even happening? Reading it on twitter or in an article once does not mean thats a thing. I have many gay friends, none of them have been forced into relationships with anyone. Its pure sensationalism and a weak argument.
I haven’t finished catching up on the thread yet but saw this an immediately wanted to reply. I’m a lesbian, and let me tell you that yes it does happen. I’ve been told that I’m not a proper lesbian because I’m not interested in trans women because they are bio male. I’ve been told that a penis is a huge clit, that I just haven’t been shagged properly, how do I know I’m not into them if I haven’t tried… do you know how I heard that from before? Men. In the clubs years ago I stopped telling men I was lesbian because of some of the disgusting things they used to say to me. I started saying I had a boyfriend and the respected my imaginary boyfriends boundaries rather than my own.

I don’t feel like I can respectfully call a trans woman she because then it becomes a ‘gotcha’. If I call them she then surely I see them as female? If I see them as female then surely I must be sexually attracted to them? I’m not? Then I’m a bigot and not respecting their identity.
 
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Ekathrina

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I think it proves my point in that virtually all those incidents were carried out by men. You can’t really expect us, as women, to do anything about it when approximately 180 of us are being murdered every year in this country alone, also by men. That’s a handful of incidents compared to the tsunami of violence against women, I’m sorry to say, but it pales into insignificance. Given that it isn’t women who are carrying out such attacks, why is it somehow our fault and why are we expected to act as human shields by letting men into single sex spaces because other men are mean or violent to them?
 
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blahblahboring

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Hi @SueDoyou
Just want to welcome you to the thread and encourage you to keep reading and posting. You’ve said that we seem angry and we probably are, but nobody here wants to murder trans people or see them suffer. Most of us have an issue with gender ideology and the detrimental impact it’s having on women and girls. I’ve just finished reading 2 books that I’d highly recommend to you.
1. Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier
2. Material Girls by Kathleen Stock
Both are available on Audible as well.
They are so much more articulate and well-informed than any arguments I can make here. They’re well-researched and include testimony from trans people and detransitioners.
I appreciate that you want to treat trans people with kindness and respect. I agree, everyone should be treated with kindness and respect. But many TRA demands are in direct conflict with fairness to girls and women. There ARE genuine people with dysphoria who want to live as the opposite sex, I think some even post here from time to time. That’s fine, have at it! Live your life and be happy. But do not infringe on the rights of women and girls. Anyway, I do hope you’ll stay and keep the conversation going. Life would be boring if we all agreed with one another all the time. Just know that the vast majority of people on here are good-hearted and open-minded, who despair that women’s rights are being eroded everyday.
 
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It's funny these men are so deluded due to the validation they receive from other male lunatics, they think they can convince actual women. Both with their appearance and their porn-addled creative writing exercises.

We're women. We've been trained to recognise male BS since birth. Because our lives depend on it.
 
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Ekathrina

VIP Member
It’s funny how I’m a now a racist who doesn’t want black people sitting next to them. I must tell my mixed race sons, I bet they’ll be quite surprised to find they are banned from my sofas.
 
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It's disgusting and honestly heartbreaking that we are being made a mockery of by these fantasists.
I am not 'cis', I am not 'afab', I'm just a woman.

Real womanhood isn't pornified shite like 'treat me like a slut', half-drown me in piss, 'I do anal and squirt by default'.

Sorry, I know we all know this. I just wanted a bit of a moan. I feel like the world is being conned.
 
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nothanksbabes

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I'm sure we would actually agree on a lot thats the thing, systemic oppression is nowhere near gone and there are genuine parts of society that right now are a real threat to us.

I just think reading in this thread a person complaining that a boy got a dress as a present on a boots ad is absurd. Surely that harms women more by saying girls are just their 'girly' things.

I'm here for good conversation anyway so I'll do myself a favour and read through the threads fully to see the extent of discussion. The problem with these conversations is people don't listen on both sides so I will do that now.
People are pointing out a boy in a dress not because there's an inherent issue with a boy wearing a dress, but because it's become impossible to separate this (which is a bloody boring corporate performance anyway) with the current concept of gender identity, where oppressive gender roles are rebranded as personal identity markers.

We now live in a society where women are labelled bigots because we don't believe a man is a woman because he says he is, and where gender non-conforming children are being used to legitimise the "gender identity" of adults, rather than just being seen for what they are, which is kids doing what kids do.

Gender non confirming children have been rebranded as "trans" children and those of us who think gender non confmity is normal and to be celebrated and object to the regressive idea that gender non-conformity means you're not the sex you were born have been rebranded as bigots.

You're right though, a boy in a dress should be seen a just a boy in a dress. However, that is absolutely not the case anymore and it's not the "gender critical" women you need to be concerned about in that regard.
 
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klarakluckbag

VIP Member
Bisexuals exist - but I don’t recall Caitlyn having a male companion, but I don’t keep up with them - chuckle

I think for Caitlyn it’s what happens when a fetish meets a great deal of money and more acceptance in the world. As a public person and a gold medal winner it would have been impossible for many years for Bruce to be open about such things.
I will say one thing for Caitlyn Jenner...all of her sporting medals were won as a man, competing against other men and I believe she is quite vocal about the unfairness of men competing in women's sports.
 
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greenvelvet

VIP Member
@SueDoyou

I made you a list of our views and concerns. I hope this helps you understand the general views we have.
these spaces tend to be very active for two reasons: 1) many of us are progressive and cannot say these things in progressive spaces without risking our employment and/or friendships 2) when you get “peaked” you become horrified by how far gender ideology has gone and what it has allowed in.

Because it’s so controversial, people from many walks of life come here or to spaces like it, which means that you’re going to get conflicting opinions. There are radical feminist opponents to gender ideology (🙋‍♀️), conservative opponents and people who fall somewhere in between.

I think issue 1) means many people that comment on this online have an account devoted to just this, but to an outsider, it looks like all we care and think about is this and are thus irrational. I promise you that many of us are perfectly rational

Here are many of the prevailing views on this issue from a radical feminist POV:

Sex = biological sex. It is immutable in humans
  1. Your sex defines you as a man or a woman
  2. Gender = social etiquettes taught to each human sex, varying slightly across the world but generally anything that could be defined as socially masculine or feminine
  3. Transsexual = someone who experiences long-term gender dysphoria and accordingly medically and surgically transitions to present as the opposite sex, but whose biological sex does not change. This is a rare mental illness.
  4. Some of us think it is OK for transsexuals to transition, following support for other mental issues is explored first and after a long safeguarding process, once they are adults as children are not in a position of mental development to make a permanent decision like this. Those of us who believe there are “genuine transsexuals” recognise not transitioning before adulthood makes transitioning harder for them, but that does not come above child safeguarding. Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals
  5. Transgender = someone who may not necessarily experience dysphoria but identifies as the opposite gender. May or may not transition beyond wearing gendered clothes. Is trans on the basis of gender rather than sex. We are critical of this because gender is a social construct
  6. Nonbinary falls into the same group as transgender
  7. Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex in a way men are not (e.g. higher levels of rape, FGM) and our comparative physical weakness is used against us by men, who are physically more powerful than us and have oppressed us for hundreds if not thousands of years
  8. The male sex is more violent than the female sex, sexually and otherwise, and towards women than vice versa. These statistics are reflected in how a higher proportion of transsexual women are incarcerated for sexual and violent crimes than biological women
  9. Through trying to insist that there is no difference between a transgender woman and a “cis” or biological woman, and refusing to distinguish on the basis of sex rather than gender, the gender ideology movement is effectively writing over this history, and is obscuring valuable data we need to measure and work against violence against and oppression of women. It also incorrectly insinuates trans women and not trans men experience sex-based oppression in the same way biological women do, which isn’t really true because they are not female.
  10. This obstructs feminist movements in achieving parity between the sexes. for example workplaces collecting data on women’s access to male-dominated fields will gather skewed data if they do not distinguish via sex but gender instead - eg, trans women are socialised as men growing up and this receive encouragement to go into STEM that biological women do not. If a company does not distinguish between biological women and trans women in its data collection, and many trans women work in STEM roles, it may end up believing it has improved access for biological women when it hasn’t. There are other more nefarious examples of this problem
  11. Men are generally physically stronger than women, which means that if sports are not separated by sex, women will win infrequently. It also is not safe for women and men to compete in many sports owing to how much stronger men are than women - especially the strongest man vs the weakest woman in a contest
  12. Self-ID is a portion of gender ideology that dictates that any person can declare that they are trans at any point, and be recorded and treated accordingly
  13. “Gender”-based spaces are problematic where they occur with self-ID, as it means that men can just declare they are trans women and not be required to prove it in any way as to ask them this would be questioning their gender identity which is transphobic. It would become significantly difficult to prove that a man is in a women’s space with bad intentions if there is no legal reason why he (“she”) should not be in that space
  14. Puberty blockers are not reversible and are frequently followed by hormone treatments like estrogen/testosterone supplements. We are concerned by their prescription to children and young people as CYP are exposed endlessly to the notion that these treatments *are* reversible. They are not accessing these treatments with a proper understanding of their effects, and the silencing of our concerns exacerbates this. Many pro-trans orgs take the view the treatments are reversible and are too quick to recommend children go on them, eg Mermaids and the late Tavistock gender clinic
  15. We take issue with the notion that sexual orientation is gender- rather than sex-based, as many lesbians, gay men, and straight people are certain their SO is sex-based and biologically, this makes sense. it is wrong to suggest they are bigoted for their sexual orientation, especially given the history of lesbian and gay men being forced to have sex with the opposite sex and discriminated against for having sex with the same sex
  16. We object to the notion that these views, often called “gender critical”, are unacceptable, as it means silencing the concerns we raise
  17. We are concerned by orgs like Stonewall pushing gender ideology - it expects compliance from all organisations it partners with and risks the jobs of people with gender critical views. In higher education, government, healthcare and policy, it enables the problems we identify to continue

This is by no means exhaustive. I hope you can see that many of us are not crazy transphobes. We are just normal people like you :)
 
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maytoseptember

VIP Member
It goes one of two ways:

1. The Flounce
OMG you’re all disgusting. I’m out of here, fucking TERFs

2. The Victim
Oh wow I can see this thread isn’t for open minded people. Looks like alternative viewpoints aren’t welcome here. I’ll leave you to your echo chamber *shakes head sadly*
 
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