Gender Discussion #28

[VC10]

I don’t know if this is an American viewpoint mainly but I’ve seen it said by a few young British adoptees - I’ve attached some screenshots I’ve seen in response to Roe va Wade and the discussion of adoption. Now I don’t believe women should be forced to have children, I don’t believe adoption is the alternative of abortion and those couples holding ‘we will adopt your baby’ signs at anti abortion protests are creepy AF. But I am quite shocked about how there are so many adoptees who are flat out against adoption. Of course they have gone through trauma themselves and every adoption story begins with trauma. But I don’t get why so many are so vitriolic against any form of adoption, adoptive parents talking about how they talk with their adoptive children and include them as much as their biological children and adoptees who have said they have had a good life. It’s almost like they want the process of adoption and fostering to end but what would happen to the children in care etc? I know that adoption isn’t perfect and people can be abused and damaged by it but I’m not sure what solution they want? It also hit a point because in the U.K. today adoption charities have asked people to think about adopting older children, children of different colour, children with disabilities- I’m worried if this thought process becomes prevalent then more children will stay in care?
Would be great if anyone who is an adoptee could weight in too because I am a bit perplexed by this viewpoint.
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Lunatic. Just lunatic. Isn't it sad? A couple I know have adopted children and all have grown up now, and have children of their own, they all love one another.
Abortion has been around for a very long time , and it's a choice ( unless it's taken out of your hands, through medical advice or an emergency)

 

[exhausted_mother]

From a different forum. This is to do with that woman who felt unable to speak at a rape crisis centre because there was a "trans woman" there who looked and dressed like a man. This post got the following unhinged reply.










Just crazy.

This makes me so SO angry.

I have worked with victims of rape and sexual assault and believe me their fear and trauma is real. I’ve spoken to terrified women on the phone in the early hours after a terrifying assault, now you tell her that after she’s dig deep to go to a support group that a trans woman (with a penis or not) gets to be there? What for? There are support groups for men and for LGBT surivivors - why not for women?

 

[nothanksbabes]

I'm adopted. My family are lovely, I was treated the same as my sister who is my parents' biological daughter. It has left me with some issues though, and I know a lot of adoptees feel the same.

It's a difficult thing to talk about because you feel the need to be constantly grateful, and that's a feeling that's spread into the rest of my life - feeling grateful that anyone paid me attention or was nice to me or whatever, because if your own mother doesn't want you then why the duck would anyone else? I've tolerated some bad relationships as a result.

Adoption is necessary in some cases, and I was a million times better off than I would have been with my terrible mother (who I had very occasional contact with). My sister is a foster carer and seeing some of the children she cares for, I was very, very lucky. But kids aren't kittens, you can't just take them away from their primary attachment figure and expect everything to be perfect.

Anyway, I'm waffling, but this is why I'm absolutely against surrogacy and manufacturing scenarios where babies will be removed from their mothers. In situations where children in care need a home though, it's the best outcome in a situation that's not ideal.

 

[thegirlscout]

I'm adopted. My family are lovely, I was treated the same as my sister who is my parents' biological daughter. It has left me with some issues though, and I know a lot of adoptees feel the same.

It's a difficult thing to talk about because you feel the need to be constantly grateful, and that's a feeling that's spread into the rest of my life - feeling grateful that anyone paid me attention or was nice to me or whatever, because if your own mother doesn't want you then why the duck would anyone else? I've tolerated some bad relationships as a result.

Adoption is necessary in some cases, and I was a million times better off than I would have been with my terrible mother (who I had very occasional contact with). My sister is a foster carer and seeing some of the children she cares for, I was very, very lucky. But kids aren't kittens, you can't just take them away from their primary attachment figure and expect everything to be perfect.

Anyway, I'm waffling, but this is why I'm absolutely against surrogacy and manufacturing scenarios where babies will be removed from their mothers. In situations where children in care need a home though, it's the best outcome in a situation that's not ideal.

Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate it. I can totally see how adoptees would feel they need to feel grateful all the time and how that can also effect other relationships.
I was just shocked at how anti they were with any adoption or fostering because if there wasn’t options to adopt or foster surely then more children would be at risk? The of the comments I read later showed that the adoptees had this abject hatred of their adoptive parents and seemed to hold their biological mother up on a pedestal and when I read through their previous comments about their adoptions they said it was because their biological parents abused them or used drugs when they were pregnant, neglected them, didn’t want them etc. Why would you adore someone who put you through so much hurt and didn’t care about you?

 

[Venom]

Sorry but this isn't a woman, (was on my local news)

'Police used to protect our house': a child's experience of homophobia | ITV News

Marilyn Kelly is a queer non-binary trans femme living in Manchester who has opened up about the transphobia she faced growing up. | ITV News Granada

www.itv.com

 

[Tired of this crap]

I think once you think about how much a baby is attached to it’s mother (quite literally!) and how she is all it’s ever known… they know their mothers voice, and their mothers smell immediately, mother is ‘home’ to them…. then you understand how removing a baby from its mum would be a significant trauma.

I think that’s where the anti adoption narrative comes from. Of course most (if not all) of the time it’s the best option for the child to be removed from a parent who is unable to care for them, but it doesn’t mean it won’t have lasting effects on their psychology.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I am adopted by one parent but that’s not the same and I wouldn’t compare. What I will say though, having worked in child law, adoption is definitely not as easy as the weird pro life people make out. There are sooo many failed adoptions and kids that end up even more traumatised. If these creepy ‘we’ll adopt your baby’ people really want to be parents, there are plenty more kids in care homes than people wanting to adopt them…no reason why they can’t, they just want a baby, which are adoption ‘gold dust’. They’re vultures trying to capitalise on others’ misfortune. I don’t think anyone who is genuinely ‘pro life’ would support pumping more kids into this system to be honest.

 

[klarakluckbag]

Sorry but this isn't a woman, (was on my local news)

'Police used to protect our house': a child's experience of homophobia | ITV News

Marilyn Kelly is a queer non-binary trans femme living in Manchester who has opened up about the transphobia she faced growing up. | ITV News Granada

www.itv.com

View attachment 1381999

I was reading this and came to the bit where it says this person is "Queer non-binary trans femme DJ".
And I'm thinking..."What the hell is a DJ? Is it a new gender that I haven't heard of?"

Mind you, I'm still trying to get my head around queer (gay?) non-binary (neither male nor female?) trans (I know this one, male dressing up as female!) femme (female but not a real female? So the same as trans??) DJ (plays music? Please tell me I've got this right?)

Can't gay men just be gay any more? No-one cares if you wear make-up or a dress, but why so many labels? You're still not a woman.

 

[maytoseptember]

But I am quite shocked about how there are so many adoptees who are flat out against adoption.

I’m not. Doesn’t matter whether a child is removed from neglectful and abusive parents and remembers them, or is removed immediately after birth… they all experience immense trauma. It’s a primal wound. I won’t pretend to know much about attachment theory, but it boils down to knowing that your birth mother couldn’t hold it together enough to want to keep you.

There isn’t a perfect solution. We can’t allow kids to remain with parents who can’t or won’t take care of them, but adoption is fraught and difficult. It’s a lose-lose kind of situation.

This is what commercial surrogacy is going to breed a generation of fucked up people. Complicated by the fact that surrogacy very deliberately sets out to negate the above problems by (almost always) having another woman’s egg implanted into a gestational surrogate. Trying to sever that mother-child bond by taking genetics out of the equation. I don’t think that’s going to work.

Edit: sorry @nothanksbabes I wrote this before I read your post. I don’t want to repeat or speak over you.

 

[Venom]

I'm saying this as a gay man, putting on a frock and makeup doesn't change your chromosones, your bone structure or your biological genitals. I've had a few trans 'men' (and trans 'women' for that matter) call me transphobic for not replying on grindr !. Guess I'm transphobic then because who I decide to go out with is my choice alone and no amount of trying to guilt me will change that. I like biological men, who look like men !!

 

[nothanksbabes]

Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate it. I can totally see how adoptees would feel they need to feel grateful all the time and how that can also effect other relationships.
I was just shocked at how anti they were with any adoption or fostering because if there wasn’t options to adopt or foster surely then more children would be at risk? The of the comments I read later showed that the adoptees had this abject hatred of their adoptive parents and seemed to hold their biological mother up on a pedestal and when I read through their previous comments about their adoptions they said it was because their biological parents abused them or used drugs when they were pregnant, neglected them, didn’t want them etc. Why would you adore someone who put you through so much hurt and didn’t care about you?

I think with a lot of this stuff (including the trans stuff) there's been this huge over-correction, where everything has to be black and white and there's no nuance. Adoption isn't as perfect as assumed turns into all adoption is evil, gender non-conforming people have suffered so now everyone who questions anything about transgenderism is a hateful bigot and so on.

Adoption isn't perfect and as I said I wouldn't support manufacturing situations deliberately where an infant is taken from it's mother because it's traumatic (and a difficult trauma to deal with because you can't remember it and don't know why you feel how you do) but I agree with you, I actually find it quite baffling that they seem to think there lives would have been perfect.

It's hard not properly knowing where you come from, but I suspect like a lot of this stuff we've got a lot of time to navel gaze. Historically, with how common death in childbirth was, children being raised outside immediate family wasn't unusual... I reckon we've all got too much time to contemplate our identities to be honest!

 

[a.pain]

I was reading this and came to the bit where it says this person is "Queer non-binary trans femme DJ".
And I'm thinking..."What the hell is a DJ? Is it a new gender that I haven't heard of?"

Mind you, I'm still trying to get my head around queer (gay?) non-binary (neither male nor female?) trans (I know this one, male dressing up as female!) femme (female but not a real female? So the same as trans??) DJ (plays music? Please tell me I've got this right?)

Can't gay men just be gay any more? No-one cares if you wear make-up or a dress, but why so many labels? You're still not a woman.

Surely trans non binary is an oxymoron?

 

[klarakluckbag]

I'm saying this as a gay man, putting on a frock and makeup doesn't change your chromosones, your bone structure or your biological genitals. I've had a few trans 'men' (and trans 'women' for that matter) call me transphobic for not replying on grindr !. Guess I'm transphobic then because who I decide to go out with is my choice alone and no amount of trying to guilt me will change that. I like biological men, who look like men !!

In the same vein, my husband wearing a dress and calling himself a woman, doesn't make me a lesbian.
(It would make me single though! )

 

[nothanksbabes]

I’m not. Doesn’t matter whether a child is removed from neglectful and abusive parents and remembers them, or is removed immediately after birth… they all experience immense trauma. It’s a primal wound. I won’t pretend to know much about attachment theory, but it boils down to knowing that your birth mother couldn’t hold it together enough to want to keep you.

There isn’t a perfect solution. We can’t allow kids to remain with parents who can’t or won’t take care of them, but adoption is fraught and difficult. It’s a lose-lose kind of situation.

This is what commercial surrogacy is going to breed a generation of fucked up people. Complicated by the fact that surrogacy very deliberately sets out to negate the above problems by (almost always) having another woman’s egg implanted into a gestational surrogate. Trying to sever that mother-child bond by taking genetics out of the equation. I don’t think that’s going to work.

Edit: sorry @nothanksbabes I wrote this before I read your post. I don’t want to repeat or speak over you.

Very good points. No need to worry about speaking over me. I read a lot about the primal wound and attachment disorders a couple of years ago when I was really struggling with everything, and had no idea why until a therapist suggested perhaps I'd had a traumatic infancy. Because of all the "being adopted is beautiful and no different from having your own kids" it genuinely hadn't occurred to me!

I suspect a lot of the absolutist anti-adoption adoptees are in the midst of a trauma response. I really do sympathise with them, I essentially had a breakdown in my 30s because of my major abandonment issues that probably could have been avoided if I'd had some therapy as a kid. I wholeheartedly agree that we're storing up trouble for a the future with commercial surrogacy and the like.

 

[klarakluckbag]

It's hard not properly knowing where you come from, but I suspect like a lot of this stuff we've got a lot of time to navel gaze. Historically, with how common death in childbirth was, children being raised outside immediate family wasn't unusual... I reckon we've all got too much time to contemplate our identities to be honest!

This ^^^
When you think about it, until recently, very few people could honestly say that they could be absolutely certain who their father is. Most people never even thought about it. We know from the DNA evidence available now, that many, many people are completely unrelated to the man who they believed to be their father, and I'm sure that this isn't a recent phenomenon. Women have been impregnated by force, they have had affairs, they have lied about their babies' due dates, they have had sex with another man, just to get pregnant, and so on. Those of us that are of my generation all know that family member who doesn't look like anyone else, or we have a friend who was the "black sheep" of the family. My husband's brother (the middle child) has a different father to the rest of his siblings, and his father knew about it. One of my friends grew up believing that his mother was actually his older sister, he didn't find out until he was almost 40 years old. We are very privileged to be able to find out about our ancestry, but it does sometimes open a can of worms.

 

[CookieZippy]

This makes me so SO angry.

I have worked with victims of rape and sexual assault and believe me their fear and trauma is real. I’ve spoken to terrified women on the phone in the early hours after a terrifying assault, now you tell her that after she’s dig deep to go to a support group that a trans woman (with a penis or not) gets to be there? What for? There are support groups for men and for LGBT surivivors - why not for women?

Exactly. And in the case in question, it seems the trans woman was making no effort to even appear like a woman. In the age of self ID I could well imagine actual rapists attending groups likes this to hear the stories and get off on it. I want to reply to the post on that forum but I dont want to be banned.

 

[maytoseptember]

I suspect a lot of the absolutist anti-adoption adoptees are in the midst of a trauma response. I really do sympathise with them,

Yep.

There is a group on FB for autistic adults and parents of autistic kids, and it’s SO toxic. Parents post for advice, hoping to do things right and get some advice from people who really understand, but what invariably happens is a pile-on. People projecting their trauma and resentment of their own parents onto these other parents. It’s messy.

 

[Glortard]

Daily Mail stealing stories from here now!!! Lol

RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: Woke Halifax should wake up and Bring Back Howard!

RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: What was unusual at the time was that Howard Brown, of Barbadian heritage, was one of the very few black faces featured in any high-profile advertising campaign.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[CookieZippy]

And still the daftest thing about people displaying their pronouns for others remains that nobody uses the bleeping things while talking TO YOU.

 

[Cack Conroe]

I don’t know if this is an American viewpoint mainly but I’ve seen it said by a few young British adoptees - I’ve attached some screenshots I’ve seen in response to Roe va Wade and the discussion of adoption. Now I don’t believe women should be forced to have children, I don’t believe adoption is the alternative of abortion and those couples holding ‘we will adopt your baby’ signs at anti abortion protests are creepy AF. But I am quite shocked about how there are so many adoptees who are flat out against adoption. Of course they have gone through trauma themselves and every adoption story begins with trauma. But I don’t get why so many are so vitriolic against any form of adoption, adoptive parents talking about how they talk with their adoptive children and include them as much as their biological children and adoptees who have said they have had a good life. It’s almost like they want the process of adoption and fostering to end but what would happen to the children in care etc? I know that adoption isn’t perfect and people can be abused and damaged by it but I’m not sure what solution they want? It also hit a point because in the U.K. today adoption charities have asked people to think about adopting older children, children of different colour, children with disabilities- I’m worried if this thought process becomes prevalent then more children will stay in care?
Would be great if anyone who is an adoptee could weight in too because I am a bit perplexed by this viewpoint.
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That one about "your adopted kids have no choice but to be part of your family" "they'll grow up, no longer be dependent and part of your home" - that's exactly the same for all kids, adopted or not. No one gets to choose their family and all kids in the West are expected to fly the nest if they're able to.

I agree there are issues in adoption (especially when fees are involved, and especially international adoption), and there is always a level of trauma, but that doesn't mean that adoption is not necessary. Some mothers don't want to abort. It's a CHOICE, not mandatory. Women should not be pressured to have abortions. Also many wanted children are adopted after their parents are determined to be not able to care for them, or who have died.

I have heard of the concerns of unhappy adoptees before and there are valid issues to be discussed. Such as expecting adoptees to be "grateful"; treating adopters as heroes or martyrs; adoptive families being territorial over the adoptees and not being supportive of them finding their birth family; or expecting parenting an adopted child to be exactly the same as a biological child. That's without getting into cultural issues of inter-racial adoptions, and unethical international agencies making a fortune selling "orphaned" kids who are not actually orphaned. But adoption will always, always be needed because there is no way of guaranteeing that all parents are able to survive or parent adequately. It is selfish and shortsighted to try to do away with adoption entirely. It seems that some resentful adoptees blame absolutely all their issues on being adopted, including problems that many non-adoptees have anyway.

I don't really see that adoption should factor in either the pro- or anti-abortion side, they should all stop weaponising it in arguments. It's a separate issue. It's not the case that all unwanted pregnancies would be adopted if carried to term, or the case that all or even most children/babies up for adoption are the result of unwanted pregnancies. The same goes for saying "abortion is better than children being dragged up by unfit parents" - where is the proof that women who abort would have all made unfit parents, and where is the proof that parents who they (those making the argument) deem to be unfit all had unwanted pregnancies they would rather have aborted? There are also often class issues when making comments such as these, stereotyping what is considered to be unfit or worthy mothers.