Gender Discussion #24

[klarakluckbag]

I absolutely support the ban on gay aversion therapy, which, as I understand, is mostly perpetuated by religious nut-jobs zealots, who are think that gay people are "sinners". I'm not a fan of organised religion in general anyway, it's hypocritical at best, and too many religions try to deny rights to women seeking abortion, divorce, contraception or safety from domestic violence. I don't think religion serves women, or gay people well at all.

Trans "conversion" therapy is an oxymoron. If you try to convince a man, who thinks he is a woman, that he is a man, then where is the "conversion"? He IS a man. I'm not advocating electric shock therapy, drugs, or any form of coercion, but surely the prescribing of hormones, puberty-blockers and surgery is "conversion therapy"? You're converting someone into something that they are not.

I honestly don't have a problem with genuine transsexuals, I do think that some people really do feel as though they were born as the wrong sex, and I feel that they should be entitled to access support to help them with this. The poster on here who has given us a very moving account of her life-long journey through transition has explained this very well, she mentioned (with reference to the MP who came out as trans after several shady brushes with the law) how a true transsexual wouldn't be able to wait until middle-age to decide to suddenly identify as a woman. That one sentence really resonated with me, why do these men suddenly want to be female after living as a man for so long? Why were they not wearing dresses when they were 4 years old, why weren't they growing their hair and playing with Barbies? Why are they ALWAYS married to a woman?
(Please don't tell me that it's because they're "lesbians", you can't be a lesbian if you have a penis)
There's something very shady about the screechy TRA's, they clearly hate and fear women, they have absolutely no respect for our boundaries. Insisting on muscling in on our sports, wanting to be in our hospital wards, in our toilets and our changing-rooms? We know it's a sexual fetish, that they get a kick out of embarassing and demeaning us. Enough is enough.

 

[lokencrepis]

Aside, JK Rowling never said trans people shouldn't exist or have any rights. Literally never said that.

You should read what she actually did say before calling her an asshole.

It's a twitter TRA hive mind fantasy that she's a transphobe.

That is ridiculous. JK Rowling certainly doesn’t believe that Ed should have no rights. Nonsense. She’s simply a wonderful advocate for women’s rights. We are lucky to have her.

Right.... so publicly supporting a website that sells things that say 'trans women aren't women' and I quote On June 6, 2020, Rowling retweeted an op-ed piece that discussed “people who menstruate,” apparently taking issue with the fact that the story did not use the word women. “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” she wrote. Yeah, no. There are women who don't menstruate. There are men who do. There are intersex people. This is scientific fact.

Unless, of course, you think that once a woman goes through menopause, she's no longer a women? Or if a woman has a hysterectomy, she's no longer a woman. Or if someone was born with female chromosomes, but doesn't have a womb.... you get my point?

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Sex and Gender exist separately from each other. Yes, a trans women is biologically male. This does not make her a man.

We don't even need to go into how doctors have found evidence in brain scans to show that there are objectively female and male brains. And these do not necessarily like up with what is hanging (or not) between their legs.

 

[Notworthy]

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

"When we look at the transgender brain, we see that the brain resembles the gender that the person identifies as,” Dr. Altinay says. For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.

And the brain similarities aren’t only structural.

“We’re also finding some functional similarities between the transgender brain and its identified gender,” Dr. Altinay says.

In studies that use MRIs to take images of the brain as people perform tasks, the brain activity of transgender people tends to look like that of the gender they identify with.

“Research in these areas is extremely limited, and more research needs to be done to find conclusive results,” Dr. Altinay notes. “But we’re already seeing definite trends.”"

I can pull out the scientific articles if you would like? But go off....

Cleveland Clinic Health Essentials

Health and wellness information and insights from Cleveland Clinic experts to help you live healthier every day.

health.clevelandclinic.org

"When we look at the transgender brain, we see that the brain resembles the gender that the person identifies as,” Dr. Altinay says. For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.

And the brain similarities aren’t only structural.

“We’re also finding some functional similarities between the transgender brain and its identified gender,” Dr. Altinay says.

In studies that use MRIs to take images of the brain as people perform tasks, the brain activity of transgender people tends to look like that of the gender they identify with.

“Research in these areas is extremely limited, and more research needs to be done to find conclusive results,” Dr. Altinay notes. “But we’re already seeing definite trends.”"

I'll quote you too.... given you have seemingly forgotten how google works


It is scientific fact though.

Ask me if I think trans women should compete in all female sports... I don't think they should, because they are biologically men.

Ask me if I think that children should medically transition.... Because I don't think they should, they are too young.

Ask me if I think that trans women are women... I think they are. Gender and sex are not the same thing. They are biologically male, but gender... they're women.

There are actually more intersex people then you think. Thats just fact.

Some people (on twitter specifically) seem to think the world is very black and white. Science isn't black and white, and neither are brains.

You say "only women are able" no... only FEMALES are able. You're getting your sex and gender all mixed up. Yes only biologically FEMALES can menstruate, thats not all of what a WOMAN is. Sex does not equal gender.

In some parts of India, Afghanistan and some tribes there are 3 genders, are we so arrogant to think that our white, western idea of gender is the only correct one?

Do not assume you know all of someones beliefs based on one comment, we probably agree on more than you think.

Your argument is so regressive, all you're depending on to make it is reinforcing gender norms such as girls are girls because they do so called girlie things, I thought we had gotten beyond that type of shit. I fly planes, no doubt if my brain was scanned as I flew, there would be specific parts of it in use, doesn't make me a fucking man though.

 

[Vanelope]

The appropriation of the most painful parts of womanhood is really quite upsetting.

 

[WritersBlock]

I don’t mean to cause offence in any way but my observations are that the whole trans debate is becoming completely one sided. I’m not sure why. I hear many biologically born men/now passing as women banging on about their rights but I rarely hear of women who now live as men doing the same or being given the same airtime.

 

[GladiatorReady]

One of them told me men also basically have periods because they have fluctuations in monthly hormones ) I just don’t know how to respond to these arguments.

The only way that transwomen have monthly hormone fluctuations is if they are deliberately fluctuating their hormone dosages in an attempt to cause symptoms. Otherwise they would be on a steady dose of medications. The biggest indicator of this is that they always say it's on 'happens every 28 days like clockwork, so it must be a period.'

That is despite only 13% of women being on a 28 day cycle, with the average being 29.3 days, and anything from 21 days to 40 days is considered 'normal' by the NHS.

Also, there is only one aspect of a period that is a period, and that's the bleeding. Some women get cramps, some don't. Some have mood swings, some don't. Some have breast pain/tenderness, some don't. Some bloat, some don't. Some have stomach issues, some don't. Some have nausea, some don't. Some have headaches/migraines, some don't.

If I get a headache that is unrelated to my cycle, I won't say that I have a period-related symptom, I'll say I have a headache.

 

[Cocobaby09]

BREAKING NEWS: British Cycling BAN trans cyclists from racing # via https://android.com

 

[Vanelope]

She's a butcher. This is going to be a scandal in a few years' time. There'll be documentaries about how she was allowed to get away with it.

I was thinking before about how I feel as an openly "gender critical" feminist (or as I like to call myself, a feminist). Women experience a lot of being dismissed and told to shut up and having our experiences diminished and being told what we are and what we think - men have been the arbiter of womanhood since time immemorial. But I have never felt so "invisible" and felt such outright misogyny as I do now.

I'm a 36 year old, compassionate, left wing, working class woman who has spent her entire life actively in favour of LGBT rights, constantly being told I'm a privileged bigot. I think gender non-conformity is normal, and these nutters think it needs to be treated with hormones and surgery (cases of severe dysphoria notwithstanding), yet somehow I'm the regressive one?

One thing I will say is that although opinionated I'm very easy going and generally pick my battles wisely, because life is too short, but I will fucking die on this hill. I've never been more certain of anything that we'll eventually be vindicated. AGP men and their deluded handmaidens are selling women and kids (gay, trans and otherwise) down the river for validation of their own little egos and its horrifying watching it unfold.

Ugh. I know I'm ranting pointlessly at the converted here but sometimes you just need somewhere to shout about the madness .

I’m 43 - I have daughters. It’s a no brainer I will die on this hill also.

 

[judgejohndeed]

What I said doesn't disagree with those stats? I am not asking for society to be reordered. Just perhaps if someone goes into a shop and looks for womens clothing, that they won't be stared down? Or if someone comes into a bar, who is obviously AMAB, but is wearing womens clothes, they don't get laughed at or turned away. That maybe if that person asks to be referred to with female pronouns, that we'd use it.

Yeah no I’m not going to refer to a male with female pronouns because they ‘ask’ it in the same way I wouldn’t refer to a white man as black if he asked it. How is that ‘not’ reordering society by all means if you personally want to do that then knock yourself out, I’m not trying to stop anyone else doing that, but you should pay others the same courtesy and accept it’s a choice that many of us simply are not willing to do. Feeding into this fantasy should not be forced on other people.

 

[Platformcrocs]

And that's your opinion. You don't have to do anything. But you can't go and affect someone elses life because you don't agree with it. I don't agree that people should get tattoos all over their bodies the moment they turn 18. Some of my friends did exactly that, doesn't mean I stopped talking to them. You don't have to validate anyone, I hazard a guess that they probably don't particularly care what you think?

Why are you quoting me when I'm not even speaking to you you're obviously looking for an argument here. Someone choosing to get tattoos is not even remotely similar to a middle aged man cosplaying as a woman and wearing sanitary pads. Fucking right they won't be getting any validation from me, and I'll keep speaking up about it while I'm here.

 

[IndominusRex]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...s-anatomy-avoid-upsetting-trans-patients.html

This drives me mad. No attempt to improve the birthing experience or reduce for example the poor outcomes faced by black women but they will rename vaginas ‘front holes’ to be ‘inclusive’. It’s not even accurate unless they’re suggesting you birth from your urethra. It’s the middle.

 

[GladiatorReady]

I hate how Labour frequently seem to suggest that this debate is 'LGBT+' or 'women' - as though there aren't any lesbian or bisexual (gender critical) women.

I really want to vote Labour, but I can't vote for a party that believes lesbians can love dicks if they just try hard enough to do so. I don't care what their previous accomplishments are.

 

[loveulongtime0]

This thread is so reassuring when all I see around me is virtue signalling. I often read the saccone joly thread and it’s infuriating seeing the amount of people who don’t agree with what the parents are doing, but will forever refer to the 8 year old “trans” child by “she/her” pronouns even though HE is a boy. The amount of times I’ve been called transphobic for stating my opinion, that children CANNOT be trans. They do not understand what it means to transition into a completely different make-believe body. This is a child, why can’t we let kids be kids? Why does there need to be transgender education in schools?? I worry about when my son goes to school, what kind of people he’s going to come across, what he’s going to be told. The people going along with it all in the name of being a “trans ally” are enabling this absolute farce even further.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Love him or hate him, I'm so glad he's said this.

Boris Johnson says he DOESN'T think 'biological men should be competing in female sporting events' | Daily Mail Online

The most coherent he's ever been, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Never thought I'd see the day when, if there was an election tomorrow, I'd vote Conservative. Former member of the Labour Party, trade unionist, working class feminist agreeing with the Conservatives. We really are in a weird place.

 

[Luisa18]

“No one should have to choose between being who they are and participating in the sport they love”

Unless you’re a woman being asked to compete against a man. I’m sure they’ll be asking themselves which hill they want to die on ahead of every comp.

 

[CookieZippy]

Likening a relationship between and able bodied and disabled person to one between a child and a pedalo. Absolutely sick.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I try to keep my views on gender quiet on other threads (occasionally I’ve been unable to) but there is always such a feeling of dizzying cognitive dissonance when otherwise sensible people simply cannot see the GC point of view and shut any questions down by saying they are transphobic.

There is a big problem on this site IMO that any TRA type posts are left on other threads but anything remotely radfem/terfy is dumped in here. It's extremely annoying. I just mute any TRA types on other threads now but I find it exasperating that they're allowed to go wildly off topic and dump a load of nonsense in other threads while the other side gets moved or deleted.

ETA they're always extremely long as well. Anyone who read the Niomi Smart thread recently for example. One person was writing reams and reams of rubbish about men (trans women) in female sport and it's just left there.

 

[klarakluckbag]

They're always so violent and threatening, aren't they? It's all "Kill the TERFS" and "JKR should be in a coffin" etc, etc.

I've been on women's marches in the past, but I've never seen a woman holding a placard demanding death to misogynists, or that we should "kill men". ("Kill the patriarchy" maybe, which isn't the same thing at all)

It's a pity that these thugs aren't put right at the top of the news sites, and on the front pages of the papers. Maybe then, more people will understand what we're actually having to deal with.

 

[Platformcrocs]

Wow, talk about a few condoms short of an orgy

1)Therapy is not abuse, you cannot complain about the lack of mental health resources for trans people on one breath then complain in the next that therapy is available. It’s not torture, it’s just making sure that making a lifelong irreversible decision is the right thing to do. It’s far more complicated than “I like barbies so I must be a girl”

2) Transgender women are not women. They are men who either wish to be or believe they are women. Being a woman isn’t a belief, it’s a state of being. I’m 5’2, could put some heels on but that wouldn’t change the fact I’m still 5’2

The CHEEK of referring to erasure is just we’re the ones being erased! Us cervix havers! Chest feeders! Menstruators! And also no not every single man is stronger than every single woman but you can guarantee that if every man and every woman trained for an event the man would win hands down. Saying otherwise is BEYOND naive andjust plain stupid.

3) As transgender women are not women, no they shouldn’t have the rights to women only spaces. If they want a safe space from men, create some sort of gender neutral space.

Honestly, what an idiot?!?!?!

Munroe is another one who can sod off. Trans women have already forced their way into women's spaces. What more do they fucking need? It's true, give someone an inch and they take a mile. Look at the way their attitude flips when women speak up and say actually, no. It flips in a way that is very familiar if you've experienced an abusive male partner.

 

[Chocolate2008]

Thank you for that link.

‘In their new book, Lavery describes their penis as feeling “as though I were laying my own miscarried foetus across my hand”.’

Having been through the searing physical and emotional pain of a miscarriage, I cannot begin to explain how revoltingly offensive that is.

Im v sorry for your loss.
The fact that anyone thinks it’s acceptable to compare a penis to a tiny baby’s body shows how far this entire thing has gone. As well as being offensive it makes no sense. A miscarried foetus is a human life. I’m not usually one for drama but it feels like the list intimate parts of womanhood are being misappropriated.
We need to stand up for ourselves girls, things are too far gone already.