Gender Discussion #24

[klarakluckbag]

I remember when the prefix "Ms" began to gain popularity, there was lots of derision aimed at women who didn't think that their marital status was anyone else's business. When it was pointed out that men aren't expected to use titles which declare whether or not they are married, we were told that we were being "too sensitive" etc. The general feeling was that we were being a bit uppity, and making a huge fuss about nothing. It's only because of feminist protests that we no longer get asked our age at job interviews, nor can we be questioned on whether we already have, or plan to have children.

Women have had to fight hard for every single concession, and yet now we're just supposed to sit back and have our sex-based rights, our employment rights, our safe spaces, the medical terms for our bodies, and even our pronouns, taken from us. Why do they think that we're not going to protest against this? We have to protest for everything else

 

[klarakluckbag]

One of my friends had a double masectomy for breast cancer. She was glad to be cancer-free, and it was a huge relief when she was told that it hadn't spread anywhere, but it was also a massive strain on her mental health, and she struggled with her self-image for a long time afterwards.
The surgery was brutal, but necessary. She declined reconstructive surgery at the time, and although she said that she may reconsider at a later date, I don't think she ever will. Her husband is fantastic and very supportive, but watching that TikTok video has made me so angry. The thought of women voluntarily mutilating their bodies, in some vain attempt to be "different"? What is wrong with these women? How anyone can deny that it's mostly a mental health issue, is beyond me.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Tbh I have major objections to the phrase 'GC beliefs' and I would never refer to myself as having 'beliefs' of this kind. I get why it's said. But would you say you 'believe' in cancer, or pregnancy, or any other biological fact? People who think you can change sex or be non binary or any of this other shit are the ones with 'beliefs', we just don't subscribe to those beliefs in the same way I don't subscribe to religion etc. Time to push back IMO.

 

[Peachsquish]

Round of applause for this post.

Sadly in the age of identity politics the most "marginalised" voices are given the most legitimacy, even when, as in Munroe's case, they're thick as shit.

Your comment leads nicely into this which popped up on fb

 

[bananabutter]

Going back to that video of the woman shouting about how she was a gay man. There’s so many quote tweets on that saying how appropriation of being a gay man is so inappropriate, she’s not a gay man she’s a heterosexual woman etc etc (rightly so!) but where is this energy for trans women appropriating women??

 

[GladiatorReady]

Yeah it's happened a lot on the Niomi Smart thread lately by some posters who I really like and it's disheartening to realise people you imagine you would get on with think you're the worst kind of bigot just for thinking the mildest GC thoughts.

I'm very secure in my opinions on this and know that I am a compassionate and non phobic person. But I worry for others who take a look at this thread and feel like they agree, but are scared off by people calling them bigots. I definitely felt nervous that I had missed something when I first started to read about some elements of trans activism. Many aspects of what was being argued didn't add up to me but I was worried I was being unfair or unkind. The vitriol directed towards GC people at the moment definitely would have impacted me then!!!

A few years ago I used to think that all TERFs were horrible, evil, bigoted women. I had swallowed all of the (then) TRA talking points and believed that 99% of trans women were gay men with internalised homophobia, that 100% wanted to have full surgery, that there was an epidemic of violence against them, that they just wanted to be left alone in peace.

I peaked in stages but there were two main things that happened...

I saw that a same-sex lesbian subreddit had been set up (and is now long banned) and everyone in the 'LGBT+' subreddits said how awful and horrible those women were, that they wanted to kill trans women, that they were talking non-stop about how much they wanted to hurt trans women. Every message said 'I went and looked and it was so horrible, please don't go and look for yourself, it will upset you too much.'

I figured that if I wanted to argue against 'TERFs' that I had to see what they were arguing, so I went to look and I saw none of the hatred. I was genuinely confused and started to look into more GC spaces and barely saw any of the vitriol that I had been told, barely saw anything hateful at all.

The final peak was Karen White. That's when I realised what was at stake and became full TERF.



So many women are still at that first stage, that is why you see headlines such as 'woman arrested for transphobic tweet', 'woman arrested for transphobic stickers' but they don't say in the article what the tweet/stickers were for - they bank on people thinking 'oh my, if they've been arrested for a tweet it must have been something absolutely horrific'.... when it's actually a picture of a ribbon. It's also why you see people saying 'don't read JKR's letter, I read it and it will just upset you' - they need people not to look behind the curtain.

 

[FrannyGallops]

Are you unable to be a feminist without involving trans people in the conversation? I stick up for women’s rights every single day and have never found the need to reference trans people in that.

I don’t know where you’ve been hiding but the trans rights movement is the biggest threat to women’s rights at the moment. In this country, trans people have all the rights that everyone else does, but they’re after a bigger slice of the pie. They want to move into women’s prisons, women’s changing rooms, women’s sports and we’re seeing the right to describe ourselves at women entirely erased. I’m not sure how you can describe yourself as a feminist if you’ve missed all this.

 

[weeweegie]

Also the seeming insanity that getting T wasn't a problem but getting the drugs to solve the problems that T caused is basically going to bankrupt them. Horrible, horrible system in the US.

That’s a good point. It’s effed up! Giving out T with ease but not potentially life saving medication.

Trans Scots killer identifying as infant demands nappies and baby food in jail

Sophie Eastwood, formerly Daniel, is demanding nappies to wear and food to be blended like a baby's and has already been supplied with a dummy at Polmont prison.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Jesus christ.

Wait, what? Am I reading this right or am I asleep having a nightmare? After strangling his cellmate to death with a shoelace he then identified as a woman and was put in a women’s prison? WHAT?

And the baby thing, WTAF!!! why are they even listening to this sick freak???

"It’s difficult to know if she really does feel a natural inclination to be treated like a baby or if it’s just some kind of attention seeking.”

IT’S NOT DIFFICULT TO KNOW, THIS PERSON IS A PSYCHOPATH YOU IDIOTS.

Sorry for shouting but what the actual fuck

 

[Jayceedove]

A distant cousin of mine is a trans woman and is quite happily getting on with her life without shouting anything like this at all. Dresses like most women I know and definitely doesn't fit into that over sexualised look that we often see in the media. They are quite forthright about their views on politics and general equal rights (think access to housing, education, health etc) but rarely mention trans rights specifically. I have heard her discuss that she knows that she had male privilege growing up and therefore doesn't feel that she can comment with any authority on some aspects of women's lives (she transitioned in her early to mid 20s I seem to remember) and therefore doesn't. I have wondered before how many other people like her there are that are quietly getting on with their lives without making a fuss or demanding anything for themselves, I've never asked her but also wonder what she thinks about the louder element as it must have a negative impact on her too.

Do ask her how she is, please.

I suspect she is noticing and is concerned by the understandable rage out there. And she may be shell shocked and will not feel able to fit easily into either side of this argument.

She will likely appreciate your friendship so thank you for offering it to her. She seems very like me in terms of age of transition and philosophy on life and will be what is called transsexual - not transgender. The difference is very obvious to anyone who knows the two groups and I doubt she will seek or get any solace from the transgender people who hate transsexuals almost as much as they seem to hate women. They want to remove the teerm like they want to rename women too which is very telling.

In half a centiry since transition I have never known a more awful time than right now for transsexuals and I know exactly who is to blame for that. As all in here do.

Tell her we have a small support group for those who have fully transitioned under medical support and long since integrated into society and are not part of any trans movemenents out there and oppose nearly all they say.

Many are in shock over how far this ideology has gone and the harm it has done and been allowed to do by politicians chasing the youth vote

There are only 5871 transsexuals covered by the Gender Recgnition Act as of today in the UK - almost exactly the same number predicted by doctors passing that act 20 years ago. If she is one of them and on social meda or watching the news she will be feeling under invasion on all sides and especially by all these very angry men out there seeking to redefine her life as one of them. She will feel lost and quite certainly not one of them.

Where all these many thousands of new 'transgender' people have come from is the big question - as is why they are sucking so many into their insane and sexist behaviour and self defeating ideology.

I have posted my thoughts on a lot of these matters in the previous thread before this one if you want to look back at Gender Discussion Number 23 - but have stepped away from doing so as I had said all I could and this has now gone far beyond the point where anything we say can change the reality of what harm this ideology is doing out there. As the replies here show this is not really a place for me now for reasons I understand

Those of us who are just getting on with our lives are being battered by all of this emotionally and associated understandably with an ideology we get abused for calling out and blocked by all the zealots. India Willoughby blocked me as a TERF 3 or 4 years ago which says it all.

So do PM me if you can here and give me her details if she is interested in chatting to others in her position and I will invite her into that small group (only 20 of us there at present).

That location is not on any open forum as it would be rapidly derailed by trans activists if it were accessinle to the public.

It is just somewere to get support from others who will empathise and understand what she is going through as we all are struggling with the fight going on around our lives. And this is impacting the most those with no voice - the ones with real lives out there and family or jobs to protect from the repercusions who just want to carry on living them as we always have and nothing else at all. She may just need some friendly faces to talk this over with.

 

[bananabutter]

Yet white women who fake tan dark, lay their edges and wear braids - Rita Ora, Ariana Grande, many Instagram girls/models - are called out for cultural appropriation and black fishing, even if they don’t walk around saying they are black, they are being ethnically ambiguous. (I thought Ariana Grande was Latina for ages). So there is even less leeway given to them - which is not surprising as they are all women (apart from the very troubled individual who decided to get surgery to become Korean(!))

Imagine if I, as a white person, had a few sunbed sessions, tanned my skin and said “I’m black” do you think anyone of mixed race would take that? Absolutely fucking not. But it’s the same thing as being trans isn’t it??? You cosmetically change your appearance to look as you desire, doesn’t mean you are that thing and it’s offensive to those who have experienced hardship because of what they are be that because of their sexuality/sex/colour of skin whatever

 

[Chocolate2008]

No one is making anyone choose anything. THEY are forcing society to accept them. I was once empathetic to transsexuals (and still am to a degree) but as a woman and a mother of a daughter, I will NOT freely allow men to trample over women, not our lives, not out spaces, not our sports, not our jobs, not nothing, not for any reason.

Let's look further down the line and say the medical gods find some brain something or other, that confirms trans is actually a real condition. Nothing changes. They remain men, and male for life. These men need to accept their own reality. It is not for me to pander to their ego, it is a them issue.

I also have a daughter. I do not ever want her to turn around in a women’s changing room & see a penis. And the crazy thing is that is a controversial thing to say. Why is it ok for transwomen to muscle in on our safe spaces & tell us it is their right.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Repetition of something doesn't make it true. People who say trans women are women just sound fucking brainwashed.

Men have been the arbiter of what women do, think and feel since the dawn of time. Men have been telling us who we are and how we should live and what we're worth forever, there has never been a time when men haven't tried to define womanhood and have done so through violence and oppression. How is this different? The ultimate act of misogyny is telling us they are us, redefining the language we use to describe ourselves.

The vocal trans women have so little empathy for women I'm not sure how they identify as us when they can't even identify with us.

 

[smellyfootballboots]

Right.... so publicly supporting a website that sells things that say 'trans women aren't women' and I quote On June 6, 2020, Rowling retweeted an op-ed piece that discussed “people who menstruate,” apparently taking issue with the fact that the story did not use the word women. “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” she wrote. Yeah, no. There are women who don't menstruate. There are men who do. There are intersex people. This is scientific fact.

Unless, of course, you think that once a woman goes through menopause, she's no longer a women? Or if a woman has a hysterectomy, she's no longer a woman. Or if someone was born with female chromosomes, but doesn't have a womb.... you get my point?

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Sex and Gender exist separately from each other. Yes, a trans women is biologically male. This does not make her a man.

We don't even need to go into how doctors have found evidence in brain scans to show that there are objectively female and male brains. And these do not necessarily like up with what is hanging (or not) between their legs.

It absolutely does. And you, and people like you being willing to constantly further oppress women by forcing us to accept males in our spaces is disgusting.

Men rape and murder women. FACT.
You cannot change your sex. FACT.
If you have dysphoria it is a mental disorder, and you require phycological help. FACT.
No one is born in the wrong body. FACT.

You're boring me.

Also, you are wrong. (Please don't post a link to Scientific American)

Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains

How different are men's and women's brains? The question has been explored for decades, but a new study coalesces this wide-ranging research into a single mega-synthesis. And the answer is: hardly at all.

www.sciencedaily.com

TiM's are not in the slightest bit oppressed in the UK. They most certainly are misogynistic, over paranoid delusionists though

Right.... so publicly supporting a website that sells things that say 'trans women aren't women' and I quote On June 6, 2020, Rowling retweeted an op-ed piece that discussed “people who menstruate,” apparently taking issue with the fact that the story did not use the word women. “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” she wrote. Yeah, no. There are women who don't menstruate. There are men who do. There are intersex people. This is scientific fact.

Unless, of course, you think that once a woman goes through menopause, she's no longer a women? Or if a woman has a hysterectomy, she's no longer a woman. Or if someone was born with female chromosomes, but doesn't have a womb.... you get my point?

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Sex and Gender exist separately from each other. Yes, a trans women is biologically male. This does not make her a man.

We don't even need to go into how doctors have found evidence in brain scans to show that there are objectively female and male brains. And these do not necessarily like up with what is hanging (or not) between their legs.

TiM's aren't women. At best they are living as their male interpretation of what a woman is. But they are not in anyway shape or form women.

 

[DanaScully]

I love how quickly this thread moves!

My girlfriend and I met a (self-ascribed) transvestite at the weekend. Earlier that day we'd had an indepth discussion about women's rights vs trans rights so it was great timing.

The transvestite was in full woman caricature mode (bad wig, awful makeup, fetishy clothing) and apparently goes by the female name of an ex girlfriend when in girl mode (let's say Paula).

GF was intrigued and asked if she could ask some questions whilst I completely ignored Paula's existence. They discussed prison and GF asked Paula whether he would choose a female or male prison if he had the choice. Paula (a bisexual) said female because he'd quickly become "somebody's bitch" in a male facility. GF asked Paula if he felt this was fair to women who have a right to be safeguarded in custody, Paula pretty much shrugged. Says it all really!

GF went to the ladies loos later on and found Paula with his skirt hitched up showing another woman his tattoo: 'PAULA' in large letters above his genitals. She also saw his balls sticking out of his tiny pink satin thong.

It's not a fetish doe. They just want to pee!

 

[Guineapig80]

So I have been following this discussion for a number of months now and I don’t think anything has got me so ‘worked up’ before. The pictures and then disgusting comments from the JKR photos really infuriated me. I have 2 daughters and the total crap that they are going to have to navigate as they get older Just leaves me in despair. It just seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. I have a friend who’s daughter is in her early teens and she is so confused. She has been told by peers that you can’t be just ‘straight’ anymore and she gets stressed out by trying to keep up with others preferred pronouns which in some cases seem to change weekly depending on what side of the bed they get out of! Rant over but my eyes have been truly wide opened and won’t be shut.
On another note though, with regards to hospitals not wanting to use proper names for anatomy, doesn’t that go against safeguarding? We are trying to get children to use correct biological names for body parts rather than ‘nicknames’ in case of abuse allegations but on the other hand we are being told it’s offensive.

 

[smellyfootballboots]

6 April, the day that keeps on giving

 

[smellyfootballboots]

What I said doesn't disagree with those stats? I am not asking for society to be reordered. Just perhaps if someone goes into a shop and looks for womens clothing, that they won't be stared down? Or if someone comes into a bar, who is obviously AMAB, but is wearing womens clothes, they don't get laughed at or turned away. That maybe if that person asks to be referred to with female pronouns, that we'd use it.

That's entirely different from thinking trans women should be allowed full access to everywhere women are and feel safe.

There is also the argument with prison and jail time that women in general are given lighter sentences. Which I think is wrong, doesn't matter who you are, if you've committed a crime it should have the same punishment no matter what.

No. Women can't afford to allow that anymore. They have royally taken the piss and they call themselves trans women (when they are trans identified males) and we are bloody menstruators, cervix havers and birthing bodies. Tim's and TRA's have fucked women over on that front and it's time for that shit to stop.

Listen, if you are somebody who does not want to seek out the correct mental healthcare that you need and want to live in society as an oddball, then accept that is what you are doing. It not on anyone else to be party to your life, validation or crowd funder. No man goes out of his way to make women feel safe. This is a man's issue, nothing to do with women.

Women are given lesser jail time because for the most part, they commit crimes of poverty, shoplifting, fraud, prostitution. Does that mean they should be locked up with a convicted rapist? If you say yes because they are women, then you deserve to be the one locked in there with these guys, not the women in jail.

 

[oliviaobivia]

I feel like I am going to receive ALOT of hate for this, but I feel like trans people are similar to people who claim to be different ethnicities. Like that woman Rachel in the US who was white but claimed to be black, it literally made no sense. I feel like if people want to dress a certain way to for it. Be happy no matter what, but don’t say you are a man or woman if you’re not, biologically. They don’t have to experience period pain, smear tests, the list goes on so why can they say ‘oh well I’m a woman’. It’s almost as if women are having their genders stripped in order to please transgenders and not ‘offended’ anybody. If a guy wants to dress as a woman and look like a woman that’s fine, if a woman wants to look and dress like a man that’s also perfectly fine. As long as you’re happy, but that doesn’t mean you ARE one because you feel like one.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

It's getting to the point now where I want to rage about all this on social media. I'd lose a lot of friends/followers, but tbh if they're brainwashed, that's their problem not mine.

Women have vaginas.
Men have penises.

End of fucking conversation. This tedious bullshit is dangerous, misogynist rhetoric and the likes of JK Rowling are literally fighting for our existence.

 

[Clover123]

I find the whole trans rights movement at present like a cross between a cult, mass hysteria (oh the irony ), and a kind of indulgent self-affirming madness. All fueled by social media against a heady backdrop of a truly dystopian few years.

There's going to be so many fucked up, confused and unhappy people around when the craziness finally ends.

That's the thing that is so upsetting in a way. Having any concern is deemed phobic, despite the fact that in my opinion, gender critical people are the only ones who genuinely seem to care about the wellbeing of trans people. We've already seen some signs of how bad transitioning can be for long term health, and I think the worst is yet to come. I've always been extremely worried for autistic children and children who will likely grow up to be gay, but instead are being targeted by TRAs who want us to unquestioningly pump them full of experimental hormones.

Anyone who looks at the Jazz Jennings case and doesn't come away feeling terrible for the poor kid has no empathy imo. As a child, he was put on puberty blockers which prevented him from growing enough of a penis to create a vagina, and subsequent surgeries to create a vagina caused him huge amounts of pain. To think that no-one should question this when we don't allow children to make any minor life decisions like getting cosmetic surgery or a tattoo... it's insane. Even necessary surgery such as jaw surgery for under or over bites requires the child to reach the age of 18 before it is carried out, as it's technically cosmetic.

I can't believe TRAs have touted GCs as the bad guy here. History will show we were right to be worried, but I am terrified for all the young people and children who it will be too late for, who will have permanently altered their bodies and ended up with bodies that don't feel male OR female! It's very homophobic, regressive and damaging to vulnerable children who are not neurotupical.