Gender Discussion #22

[Vanelope]

Ugh, Megumi Ogata, a famous Japanese voice actress has just won a prestigious award and when she accepted it said that she "didn't consider herself an actress", "doesn't feel like a woman" and thinks the awards should not be gendered. For context she is a GNC woman who's made her career out of male voice roles and was the the voice of Sailor Neptune (a masculine les.) Now of course social media is all over this saying that she must be trans or "non-binary." No; she doesn't "feel like a woman" because she's from a sexist, "conservative" culture with a very narrow idea of what being a woman is, and that definition was even stricter in her day as she's in her late 50s.

I've seen this repeatedly within my and other (East and South-East Asian) cultures: people identifying as trans or non-binary because they don't fit into very strict, often regressive gender roles. Or don't want to be constrained by that role eg there was a Japanese women's football player in the news a while ago when she "came out" as a transman, she said that in Japan she was not accepted as a les. Of course she's going to say she is a man if that's the only way she can love women and still be accepted. I have a friend from SE Asia who escaped a horrible abusive arranged marriage and now has decided she is "non-binary", this is mostly because she doesn't want to be pushed to remarry or to have more children which would be dangerous for her medically. And of course a "woman" is expected to do that so she doesn't want to be a woman. It's so frustrating because defining gay and GNC people as trans/nb doesn't solve the problem which is our narrow cultural view of sex and sexuality. The solution to that is to address it for everyone's sake not just let a few people try to get around it by saying they're trans

It’s been mentioned before but I’ve seen trans activists praising Iran for its trans policies, omitting any mention of the fact that homosexuality is punished, gay sex illegal and gay couples avoid censure by one of them transitioning.

ETA praised because the state will fund surgery and hormones and recognise gender changes legally.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

It’s been mentioned before but I’ve seen trans activists praising Iran for its trans policies, omitting any mention of the fact that homosexuality is punished, gay sex illegal and gay couples avoid censure by one of them transitioning.

I agree. It's nothing to do with "see? trans people exist everywhere!" and everything to do with extremely narrow cultural/religious/societal definitions of what a "man" and "woman" should be

 

[Vanelope]

I watch the pottery throw down. Spoilers for those who haven’t watched it from 1/4 final.

Spoiler: pottery program

There are 4 women and one non binary female who goes by they, left. They are lovely, Scottish, seems a bit shy but has come out of their shell. (I had to retype that because I automatically used she and her because she is very obviously female.) The energy and cameraderie among them all is so female now it’s a clear difference when the male judges enter the space. I don’t know why someone decides they are not a woman, they have short hair, don’t wear makeup and wear overalls. Like every other woman doing the pottery programme, so it’s interesting. I haven’t seen the final yet so don’t spoil it for me!

 

[HoGi]

I watch the pottery throw down. Spoilers for those who haven’t watched it from 1/4 final.

Spoiler: pottery program

There are 4 women and one non binary female who goes by they, left. They are lovely, Scottish, seems a bit shy but has come out of their shell. (I had to retype that because I automatically used she and her because she is very obviously female.) The energy and cameraderie among them all is so female now it’s a clear difference when the male judges enter the space. I don’t know why someone decides they are not a woman, they have short hair, don’t wear makeup and wear overalls. Like every other woman doing the pottery programme, so it’s interesting. I haven’t seen the final yet so don’t spoil it for me!

Me and my mum watch throw down too

Spoiler

She keeps refering to AJ as she. Which it is natural to do as they are still obviously female despite the short hair etc. I can't help but feel in the past AJ would have just been a butch les? But clearly that isn't cool these days.

Also cannot get onboard with "Rose" althi8gh thankfully they have shown very little of them this season

 

[panda_eyes]

I watch the pottery throw down. Spoilers for those who haven’t watched it from 1/4 final.

Spoiler: pottery program

There are 4 women and one non binary female who goes by they, left. They are lovely, Scottish, seems a bit shy but has come out of their shell. (I had to retype that because I automatically used she and her because she is very obviously female.) The energy and cameraderie among them all is so female now it’s a clear difference when the male judges enter the space. I don’t know why someone decides they are not a woman, they have short hair, don’t wear makeup and wear overalls. Like every other woman doing the pottery programme, so it’s interesting. I haven’t seen the final yet so don’t spoil it for me!

I watch it too!

Spoiler: Throw Down

I thought it was sad, her partner was very very female and why is it better to be a they/them than being a les? I liked all the contestants, AJ was the worthy winner in the final but I wanted Nick (Welsh Kurt Cobain) to win of all the contestants.

At least it wasn't Britain's Best Woodworker eh...

 

[HoGi]

I watch it too!

Spoiler: Throw Down

I thought it was sad, her partner was very very female and why is it better to be a they/them than being a les? I liked all the contestants, AJ was the worthy winner in the final but I wanted Nick (Welsh Kurt Cobain) to win of all the contestants.

At least it wasn't Britain's Best Woodworker eh...

Haha oh god I hated the woodworker show. Mainly for all the fawning over voldetrans as I called them

 

[panda_eyes]

Here’s what we have to look forward to as mixed sex toilets get more widespread in the U.K. The replies all tell similar stories - men pissing with the doors open and abusing women who tell them to shut the door.

Same old argument: don’t look

Why do men behave like this? Is it because they’re conditioned to “not looking” when standing at urinals? So they see no difference when it comes to peeing with cubicle doors open?

Talking to a friend about a night out we're having soon in our little gang, she's experienced this as well - any bar we go to we're going to check out the toilets first, if there aren't any for women then we're off, they're not getting out money if they won't provide a safe toilet for us. Could only find one place in Newcastle that online says it has unisex only.... it's Digital (which honestly isn't somewhere we'd go anyway) and I found this tweet too...

 

[Glortard]

Talking to a friend about a night out we're having soon in our little gang, she's experienced this as well - any bar we go to we're going to check out the toilets first, if there aren't any for women then we're off, they're not getting out money if they won't provide a safe toilet for us. Could only find one place in Newcastle that online says it has unisex only.... it's Digital (which honestly isn't somewhere we'd go anyway) and I found this tweet too...

View attachment 1107862

I am a guy which I have never hide on here and I certainly do not want unisex toilets for a good number of reasons. The problem is not men its the people (both men and women) that think unisex toilets are inclusive, cool or whatever adjective you want to use. This is where the argument should be directed at. Now I am not dismissing that tweet as some guys are just holes.

 

[panda_eyes]

Next stop, Sylvia Plath! Why it is time to redraw the London Underground map | International Women's Day | The Guardian

So for IWD there's a London Underground map with the stations renamed after women, it's an art piece rather than a serious "let's rename everything".

"The tube map has been reimagined many times before. Simon Patterson’s 1992 lithograph The Great Bear is the most well known. In this work, tube stations are named after famous people including religious figures, footballers and philosophers. A 2006 version of the tube map, published by the Guardian, endeavoured to illustrate the links between different British musicians and musical genres. "

So far so good, right?

"The City of Women London map centres different values. This map celebrates women and non-binary people with deep ties to the city. These are people who have achieved extraordinary things in their field, scaled new heights or served as the nucleus of social movements. We’ve tried our hardest to place each woman or non-binary person at a station that has relevance to their lives, whether it be that they lived, grew up, organised or worked in the area."

So... if it's a City of Women London map, why are there non-binary people on it? May as well call it a "City of Non-Men London Map"? If non-binary truly is a thing, then why lump us together?

 

[katyazamo]

I am a guy which I have never hide on here and I certainly do not want unisex toilets for a good number of reasons. The problem is not men its the people (both men and women) that think unisex toilets are inclusive, cool or whatever adjective you want to use. This is where the argument should be directed at. Now I am not dismissing that tweet as some guys are just holes.

I guess it's important to remember that there are people out there who will take advantage of unisex toilets. IMO there should always be a men's, women's, and unisex toilet available and no one should be forced into using a unisex space if they're not comfortable with it for whatever reason. What I can stand is people attacking women (and it does tend to be women) for not wanting to share a toilet with men - we're made to sound like "divas" when actually, it's very simple to have segregated spaces for men and women to do their business.

You have to ask why some trans identifying men kick up a huge stink about having access to women's toilets. A trans woman who has gone through the process of obtaining a GRC and going about their life, sure no problem. A bloke in a wig and a dress who clearly gets a kick out of being in a women's bathroom, absolutely not. And there's enough of these AGP males going around which is exactly why it has become a problem.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I appreciate that men don’t ‘want’ women in their toilets and that’s obviously legitimate, but for women it’s not just that we don’t want men there, it’s also about our safety. Men are unlikely to be in danger if women use their spaces, so it’s just not the same.

 

[Django]

I watch the pottery throw down. Spoilers for those who haven’t watched it from 1/4 final.

Spoiler: pottery program

There are 4 women and one non binary female who goes by they, left. They are lovely, Scottish, seems a bit shy but has come out of their shell. (I had to retype that because I automatically used she and her because she is very obviously female.) The energy and cameraderie among them all is so female now it’s a clear difference when the male judges enter the space. I don’t know why someone decides they are not a woman, they have short hair, don’t wear makeup and wear overalls. Like every other woman doing the pottery programme, so it’s interesting. I haven’t seen the final yet so don’t spoil it for me!

Any other year and it would have been celebrated that there were three women finalists.

 

[holliebollie]

This has probably been discussed in previous threads but apart from women policing toilets, and relying on TIMs to use some self awareness, how would you actually work it? Is it about physically passing? We’ve mostly said someone with a GRC and all the bobbins done over the years isn’t a threat in toilets and no one has an issue with that. So is it down to us as women to decide who passes or not? And the whole ‘pass’ thing is so messy, it’s literally ‘does this person match very specific gender stereotypes of womanhood’?! It’s such a minefield. In places like sports, prisons, hospitals etc, that’s down to others to screen on our behalf but public places are different. A third space is obviously a good solution but that depends on the trans person realising their presence might worry some women and actually USE it?!

 

[FrannyGallops]

So is it down to us as women to decide who passes or not? And the whole ‘pass’ thing is so messy, it’s literally ‘does this person match very specific gender stereotypes of womanhood’?

Very, very few TIM’s ‘pass’ despite what they and their handmaidens tell themselves and especially without the face feminising filters they use on social media. Even the ones who have had surgery have some kind of giveaway sign, whether it’s the jaw line, voice, big hands, Adam’s apple or sense of entitlement and in some cases a full beard. They’re fooling themselves (sorry, I know that wasn’t your point).

 

[Platformcrocs]

Very, very few TIM’s ‘pass’ despite what they and their handmaidens tell themselves and especially without the face feminising filters they use on social media. Even the ones who have had surgery have some kind of giveaway sign, whether it’s the jaw line, voice, big hands, Adam’s apple or sense of entitlement and in some cases a full beard. They’re fooling themselves (sorry, I know that wasn’t your point).

I know of one who has had many rounds of "feminine facial surgery" and it hasn't really worked. They look quite bizarre. It's not like they've got a great big beard or anything but they transitioned in their mid-40s and, well, you can tell. Just being honest. They were actually a very handsome man as well. They also adopted this strange "I'm a layyyyydeeeee!" type voice, as they usually do. A TIM might have more luck if they transition during their younger years though.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I think there’s often a lot of confusion from TRAs around what ‘passing’ means. I’ve said before I work with two trans women who had all the surgeries. I also socially know of three other trans women who have had various interventions, one has had jaw surgery and the voice thing (idk what that one involves or is called, sorry) for example. I think TRAs think when we talk about whether or not someone ‘passes’ we mean whether they look like a man or not. To me, I wouldn’t say any of the trans women I know look like men anymore - but they don’t look like women either. There’s no polite way to say it other than they look plain weird. There is something obviously not right about their appearances. And I have never seen or met a trans woman where that wasn’t the case, tbh. Something is always off, and generally now when something is off you know it’s because they’re men. This isn’t the same as eg masculine looking lesbians for example, who don’t look ‘weird’, and tbh I think you can always tell they’re still female. Just my thoughts.

 

[emmer_moans]

I think there’s often a lot of confusion from TRAs around what ‘passing’ means. I’ve said before I work with two trans women who had all the surgeries. I also socially know of three other trans women who have had various interventions, one has had jaw surgery and the voice thing (idk what that one involves or is called, sorry) for example. I think TRAs think when we talk about whether or not someone ‘passes’ we mean whether they look like a man or not. To me, I wouldn’t say any of the trans women I know look like men anymore - but they don’t look like women either. There’s no polite way to say it other than they look plain weird. There is something obviously not right about their appearances. And I have never seen or met a trans woman where that wasn’t the case, tbh. Something is always off, and generally now when something is off you know it’s because they’re men. This isn’t the same as eg masculine looking lesbians for example, who don’t look ‘weird’, and tbh I think you can always tell they’re still female. Just my thoughts.

I agree. You can be GNC and look fine, instead it’s the TIMs who have their noses and jaws shaved down and fillers and teeth filed etc that looks “off”. I always think back to that UK policeman who has clearly had feminisation stuff done to his face and teeth - paired with an obvious wig and the obvious male brow bone, it throws me into confusion. A man wearing a skirt as a gender non conformist still looks like a man. However a man chiseling his jaw, doing contouring makeup and putting on a falsetto voice still does not make them look female.

 

[eyespybs123]

I think there’s often a lot of confusion from TRAs around what ‘passing’ means. I’ve said before I work with two trans women who had all the surgeries. I also socially know of three other trans women who have had various interventions, one has had jaw surgery and the voice thing (idk what that one involves or is called, sorry) for example. I think TRAs think when we talk about whether or not someone ‘passes’ we mean whether they look like a man or not. To me, I wouldn’t say any of the trans women I know look like men anymore - but they don’t look like women either. There’s no polite way to say it other than they look plain weird. There is something obviously not right about their appearances. And I have never seen or met a trans woman where that wasn’t the case, tbh. Something is always off, and generally now when something is off you know it’s because they’re men. This isn’t the same as eg masculine looking lesbians for example, who don’t look ‘weird’, and tbh I think you can always tell they’re still female. Just my thoughts.

Yes, it's almost like the uncanny valley. Some genuinely don't look like men anymore at first glance but there's something about them that you just know they aren't a woman, it's must be some deep-rooted sense

 

[Ursaarctosarctos]

Fine I'll bring another discussion other than 'transphobia' (*sarcasm*)

How disgusting that in 2022 so many companies (including the one I work at) have machines in the bathrooms that charge £1 per tampon!? I'm not saying they should be free (I mean I am but that's another debate) but for a pound you should at least get a box/a day's worth? One pound per tampon is absolutely criminal.

And the fact that these machines assume people carry change which these days lots of people don't.

These machines are also often broken and or out of order, or only stock one type of product (tampon or pad) so again, there is lots of potential to develop a proper vending machine for womens products. I doubt anyone would ever do that though

 

[nothanksbabes]

I think there’s often a lot of confusion from TRAs around what ‘passing’ means. I’ve said before I work with two trans women who had all the surgeries. I also socially know of three other trans women who have had various interventions, one has had jaw surgery and the voice thing (idk what that one involves or is called, sorry) for example. I think TRAs think when we talk about whether or not someone ‘passes’ we mean whether they look like a man or not. To me, I wouldn’t say any of the trans women I know look like men anymore - but they don’t look like women either. There’s no polite way to say it other than they look plain weird. There is something obviously not right about their appearances. And I have never seen or met a trans woman where that wasn’t the case, tbh. Something is always off, and generally now when something is off you know it’s because they’re men. This isn’t the same as eg masculine looking lesbians for example, who don’t look ‘weird’, and tbh I think you can always tell they’re still female. Just my thoughts.

Totally. I've said it on another of these threads but I think to men, femininity is the clothes, hair, makeup, etc. so other men are much likely to think a man can pass as a woman. Femininity is a performance for them.

As women we know how to identify men by the most subtle cues for our own safety.

I've met many, many butch lesbians in my life and I've never read one of them as male.