Gender Discussion #21

[Glortard]

This is a hate thread right? Against trans women? I'm just checking I haven't read the room wrong?
Because reading all these comments has made me die a little inside.
I have a trans daughter and she IS and will always be a WOMAN. She came out age 7. She always knew from as soon as she could communicate that she should be a girl.
It is not like that for all trans women. Many take decades to realise what is wrong and to be brave enough to take the steps to transition. Many just give up and add to the suicide statistics.
My daughter, now age 24, campaigns endlessly for trans rights, she fights a daily battle.
Every single person on this thread should hang their heads in shame.

Your child is still and always will be a biological man which is a fact. If they are happier living as a trans woman fair play to them and they have the exact same human rights that I have along with every other male and female in the UK.

Suicide rates are published each year and I still belong to the highest risk bracket - men in their 40s. Mermaids used a study that interviewed 7 trans people and distorted the result which always leads to this suicide argument. Its the exact same lies that are pedalled with regards to the murder of trans people of which there has been none for the last 3 or 4 years in the UK. Sadly of course there are 3 women on average murdered here a week in the UK.

What rights do trans people not have that your child fights for on a daily basis? Are they one of these people that moan that trans people have to wait for appointments on the NHS ignoring the waiting lists for hip replacements, cancer treatment etc? I have a friend that regularly travels 400 miles for treatment for pancreatic cancer on the NHS which is a huge killer in men. So I am not sorry if we are not removing healthy breasts quickly enough from teenage girls who have been brainwashed by tiktok without getting proper counselling.

Or do they campaign for the removal of the word "woman" which means adult biological female to be replaced by the likes of cervix haver, menstruator etc whilst the likes of me in the NHS will always be referred to a man. Funny how trans men are not attacking me isn't it?

or do they campaign for self ID which already has seen over 400 men accused of rape in England be labelled as "her" by the judge, police and worst of all the victim.

So by all means tell me what rights a trans person in the UK does not have which does not take away from woman and I will support it. I already know the answer which is none.

By all means stay and debate with us as unlike people on the other side of the trans debate we will not shout abuse, scream, tell you to suck our lady dick or any other vile means. However we will present facts which I know can be a problem.

 

[smellyfootballboots]

Thank you for your eloquent reply. I appreciate that.

My daughter never moaned about having to wait for treatment.

I'm not sure why I commented at all to be honest. I think it is my natural Mother instinct to protect my child. It reality I know that many opinions aren’t based on facts at all, but feelings. And so, contradictory points of information don’t shift emotionally rooted arguments, they only cause people to dig deeper into their emotions to hold onto those views. So I understand that no amount of me commenting or debating will change anyone's minds.

No, it won't. I used to be as woke as they come and then Hubbard happened and I thought - hang on a minute, that's not right. Then I spent most of last summer seeing what was really happening to women's rights. You sound (after you calmed down) pretty compos mentis and possibly if your child wasn't part of this, you maybe would be able to see our points clearer.

Ultimately, no one wants trans people to be mistreated. Bombarding women with unreasonable demands without even consulting us (they are not asks) and telling women to accept males in our spaces, sports, hospital wards and prisons - erasing us as a sex class in law (to allow for males) removing our language from NHS/medical websites and calling us bigots if we don't agree, is just completely unacceptable. Trans ideology being pushed in schools and academia is completely unacceptable; if it is so great why weren't parents informed? Trans ideology is being indoctrinated into government and our legal institutions over actual law (Stonewall we are staring at you) - this is NOT OK and neither is the removal of free speech from life.

You clearly accept your child how they are, but why should that change everything for women and other normal kids? Why is everything all about trans? Why are trans identified males being given jobs for women (Edenborough rape crisis), taking our scholarships and ruining our sports (Lia Thomas), why are they being given acting awards for women (Golden Globes), they are being cast as women (Eddie Izzard) - Why are kids not just allowed to be kids anymore? Why does a girl playing with a truck make her a trans boy? Why do you think women will be OK with this? or that it is OK to abuse and erase women in this way? Why should we be silent to protect males?

Most people I know are really fed up having to 'celebrate' people who really should just be getting on with it like the rest of us have to. The incessant whining on the internet or protesting outside a women's conference for women murdered by domestic violence with suck my girl-dick posters? Trans people are not missing any human rights but they certainly are looking to erase women.

 

[eyespybs123]

Yes my daughter is BRAVE and has attempted SUICIDE in her teens and she is completely and utterly STUNNING - there' s your hat trick.
She's also married to a straight guy. So all the posts earlier about straight guys dating trans women being actually bi or having a weird fetish is rubbish.

If your child knew they were trans aged 7 yet still tried to commit suicide in their teens, this to me shows that it was never about being 'born in the wrong body' () and all about mental health. Your child should have had therapy, and lots of it, rather than being told all their problems would be solved if they identified as a man. This might sound harsh but that's my personal belief. A child aged 7 does not know what's best for themselves sometimes and it's the parents job to guide them. They are below the age of criminal responsibility, below the age of consent and below the age to vote for a reason. Why are they able to consent to a life of medication, surgery and confusion? Terf honestly means nothing to me anymore, childrens lives shouldn't be a social experiment.

 

[Peachsquish]

This is a hate thread right? Against trans women? I'm just checking I haven't read the room wrong?
Because reading all these comments has made me die a little inside.
I have a trans daughter and she IS and will always be a WOMAN. She came out age 7. She always knew from as soon as she could communicate that she should be a girl.
It is not like that for all trans women. Many take decades to realise what is wrong and to be brave enough to take the steps to transition. Many just give up and add to the suicide statistics.
My daughter, now age 24, campaigns endlessly for trans rights, she fights a daily battle.
Every single person on this thread should hang their heads in shame.

No we shouldn't we should be proud, we are standing up for the rights of biological women rather than trampling all over them. Trans people are entitled to the same rights as anyone else they're NOT entitled to take women's hard fought single sex spaces for themselves, many people would support 3rd separate space but this is not what Tras want.

 

[sheleg]

I take huge exception to being accused of "hate" just because I refuse to believe that transwomen are women and transmen are men. For the past 20 years I have worked with vulnerable people, both male and female, in safeguarding roles and for charitable organisations. I am about as left-wing as can be. The same is true for countless gender critical women. There's no "hate". That's an accusation that is bred of ignorance and lashing out.

THINK for a minute. WHY would someone like me - bisexual, left-wing, pro-civil rights - suddenly "hate" a minority group. It doesn't compute, because it isn't the case. No hate. Just a perfectly valid (and legally enforced, thanks to Maya Forstater) view that biological sex is a reality.

 

[HoGi]

This is a hate thread right? Against trans women? I'm just checking I haven't read the room wrong?
Because reading all these comments has made me die a little inside.
I have a trans daughter and she IS and will always be a WOMAN. She came out age 7. She always knew from as soon as she could communicate that she should be a girl.
It is not like that for all trans women. Many take decades to realise what is wrong and to be brave enough to take the steps to transition. Many just give up and add to the suicide statistics.
My daughter, now age 24, campaigns endlessly for trans rights, she fights a daily battle.
Every single person on this thread should hang their heads in shame.

It isn't a hate thread no

However there are a lot of people with gender critical views on this thread.

I personally believe in biological sex (which you cannot change) and not gender (which is mainly formed of stereotypes)

 

[skronkywildcat]

@Bettiboo I think the people who should hang their heads in shame are the ones who want to erode the rights of women and girls and the ones who send children down surgery/medical pathways. How do you explain a 4000% increase if not social contagion?

I had no problem with trans people until it started affecting women in sports, women in prisons and in rape crisis centres. Oh, and women in Canada who didn’t want to wax Jessica Yaniv’s hairy bollocks.

Ps - loving the ‘brave’ and bringing suicide into the conversation - very on brand of you. Just missing ‘stunning’ or you’d have had the hat trick.

 

[smellyfootballboots]

Was listening to our local BBC Radio Station in the car yesterday. There was a 'non-binary' girl who said she's basically trying to get people to protest one of the county's Tory MPs because he is 'transphobic'. What has he done? He dared to say that trans rights should not trump single sex spaces for women and women's sport. This girl was so annoying. Saying she'd known she wasn't female since she was 6 as she hated dresses!!! During lockdown she'd had time to indulge in naval gazing and realised she was unique and special and we should all affirm her feelings as she is such a special snowflake!!!

And yes, I was yelling at the radio.

They really have turned the meaning of transphobia into a nonsense. The are so many levels to the trans ideology that people are lost.

I think it is a must, that we get trans ideology out of schools and places of academia immediately. Parents haven't been informed of what is being taught to their children and I am pretty sure this is to stop them waking up to trans. Once the kids are speaking about it at home it is too late. We know now that puberty blockers are not reversible. They cause many, many, long term effects both physiologically and physically. They do not reduce the suicide rate in dysphoric teens. We also know that if these kids do go on to cross sex hormones, if they weren't already sterile from hormone starved reproductive organs then the cross sex hormones will make these kids sterile in 100% of cases.

Then there are the fakes. The fake trans, the fake feminists who include males, the be kind bullies who love to be anything but. These are people who really are just modern days rebels; but they are being given massive clout as the Kathleen Stock story has proven.

The AGP's are who started this. 35+ year old, porn addicted, heterosexual, men who are turned on by the thought of themselves as women (makes me feel grubby typing that). These are the ones who require 'validation' and use of pronouns to get off. They need to be accepted by women in women's spaces to get the euphoric sexual high. They currently have a 'thing' on social media where they take photos/videos of themselves performing sex acts in women's spaces, usually dressing rooms and bathrooms. These are the last people on earth I want anywhere near my daughter.

These are also the men taking jobs and scholarships from women (Lia Thomas anyone?). No male, regardless of presentation should be given a job, scholarship, award, accolade, meant for a woman. Companies/organisations, including the Golden Globes, should be fined for doing so. What message does it send to young girls when all trans identified males are given jobs and roles meant for women? It says it isn't worth even trying. The men will win anyway. It says girls and women are not good enough at being us.

The ideology encourages society to lower boundaries. If we accept men as women, then they are not required to prove how they are women; the burden of proof turns to women to explain why these males are not women. If the government accept men as women, then said men gain the same rights as women, sports, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres - these men are not being examined enough for their motives.

Not all TiM's are a threat to women, but neither are all men. When women were given our sex based rights no one suggested that is was all men that were the problem, just that some of them were. Opening up women's spaces to include males opens women up to even more oppression that we already experience. I fear for my daughter.

2 sexes = male and female. Nothing in between. You will never be able to change your sex.

Sorry, for the rant - it's more of a write it down to clarify the points.. Have a good evening x

 

[HoGi]

Even though I don't agree with with the 'biological sex over gender' I can understand why some woman feel that way and I can understand why some women feel.uncomfortable with sharing woman only spaces with trans women. I DO understand that. BUT most of what I have read on this thread is just utterly disrespectful and hateful. The post just before about waxing is a prime example. This is why the TERF ideology is so dangerous. You pretend that you aren't transphobic, that you are just standing up for women. Yet you persist in insinuating that trans women are predatory? Why are you so scared to share your space with a trans woman? Asking as a person who has been sexually assaulted - the presence of a trans woman in the public toilets does not bring me trauma or upset.

Testicles literally come under a different part of training for beauty therapists.

A transwoman who books a bikini wax maybe be turned away because the therapist isn't trained in that part of the human anatomy. But sure they are a woman


ETA and there is it calling us TERFs. Happens every few months, someone joins calls us TERFs and runs away.

I am not scared if sharing a room with a trans person. But I am pro single SEX spaces. Women (read adult human females) deserve single sex spaces. They deserve to compete in sports against other women and not men. There are huge biological differences between men and women and to deny that is lunacy

 

[weeweegie]

Worth a watch and the comments are all very supportive. The previous erasure of women video is very good too.

She’s right. Women have SO MUCH crap to put up with our whole lives. Now we have to surrender our whole existence to men with a mental illness???

It is so insulting to reduce womanhood to a feeling in a man’s head. We are the ones carrying the mental load for our families. Does becoming a women mean he does the lion share of housework all of a sudden? Does it mean he’ll suddenly remember all his kids friends birthdays and organise and arrange their present? Or his own kids birthdays and spend hours planning a party and presents. Does it mean he’ll remember all the dentist appointments and haircuts for the whole family? Does it mean he’ll remember to pay for this club or that school trip? Organise family holidays? Arrange to see family? All while working full time AND suffering cramps/pms/being scared to go out a bloody walk after dark etc?? The list goes on and on and on. But sure, he fancies himself in a dress and loves make up. So that’s the exact same!!

This post might be a rage post against my husband

 

[DoraMaar]

A cervix owner speaks ...

 

[maytoseptember]

Great tweet about the Adele situation

 

[nothanksbabes]

I assure you it wasn't a case of us ' going along with it'. It was much more complex and as a family it was a very difficult time. But as it turns out, everything we ended up doing was the right thing and has led to my daughter living the life she should have been born in to. It was 17 years ago and so much was different then. Not many were 'accepting' and as you can imagine, school was a nightmare. So changes that have happened since I welcome with open arms.

I have spent the majority of my adult like among LGBT and gender non-conforming people. Us "TERFs" aren't hateful trolls who have never experienced these things. I worry for trans kids, particularly young girls who want to transition, because I identify with them and could see myself being sucked into what is clearly social contagion had I been born a few years later.

The problem is that women are being erased and ignored in the name of "inclusivity" and while I've no doubt your child is a wonderful person, trans rights activism is rife with misogyny and regressive gender stereotypes that harm women to appease the idea that womanhood is an idea in a man's head.

My main issue, however, is self-ID in spaces that vulnerable and abused women inhabit (that in all likelihood, will never directly affect me, you or your kid), like prisons.

I don't have the exact figures to hand, but they're available from a FOI request. Of around 150 trans women in prison in the UK, over 40% have committed sex offences such as rape and sexual assault. This is many, many orders of magnitude higher than the mumber of women who have committed sexual offences, because men commit these crimes and women are (usually) the victims. And sadly, we have no way of knowing which trans women are the lovely, sensitive ones, and which ones are the fetishistic sex offenders. Whereas we can say with relative certainty that the overwhelming majority of biological females are not rapists or sex offenders.

I don't wish any trans person any harm, I think everyone should be able to live their lives freely and happily. Incidentally, I have physically defended a trans woman from abuse from some fucking awful drunk men, so the idea that we're all hanging around wishing harm on trans people for a laugh is ludicrous. I do however care about women and girls and think self-ID is a mistake.

I also think a lot of gender ideology is based on regressive stereotypes that feminists have been trying for years to reject, but that's another post.

 

[Vanelope]

Well done you came in and told us what you think of us.

I don’t agree with you. Gender ideology is regressive and relies on stereotypes of what a woman or man is to give a ‘feeling’ of wrongness. Gender is also not equivalent to sex and single sex spaces are important.

 

[eyespybs123]

Man not happy because men aren't allowed on an app designed to be a man-free space? You couldn't write this

 

[holliebollie]

I usually say ‘trans women’ but maybe reverting to just using male and female might help clarify to the issue in sports/toilets/prisons/hospitals etc. No one is anti trans (I mean, I have some questions) but most people should be anti male in female only spaces. That’s it.

 

[petitspois]

I’m pretty sure it was just done to appease bloody Sam Smith who declares he is neither male nor female.

Why don't they give Sam Smith the Sam Smith award each year to shut him up ?

 

[Platformcrocs]

Also realise there is no point arguing with you. You won't hear from me again. I'll be busy living my hate free life.

Don't come into a thread giving it Billy Big Balls (no pun intended) about how we should "hang our heads in shame" and flounce. I'm glad your daughter is living her best life as she's entitled to, but no one is attacking her or you. You've said yourself you can understand why some women are uncomfortable sharing spaces with trans women.

To be clear, there is a huge difference between predatory men claiming to be trans to access women's spaces (particularly where women are vulnerable, such as hospital wards, shelters, and prisons) as opposed to a trans woman who is just going about her business. That's why single sex spaces should be respected. But this is what happens when you open up self-ID - people are going to abuse it.

 

[klarakluckbag]

I think this is part of the issue! TRA's seem to think all straight men should want to date all women, including TIMs. And that all straight women should want to date all TIF. they totally apply this to women more strongly though, the amount of shit lesbian and bi women get from TIMs who can't accept that all these women aren't magically attracted to them now they've put on a dress is disgusting

I don't honestly know who they think IS going to be attracted to a man dressed as a woman? Straight women aren't interested. Lesbians are attracted to actual women. Bisexual people may be attracted to either sex, but they're still going to only want someone that they actually fancy, and let's face it, there isn't anything particularly alluring about a bearded bloke wearing Laura Ashley and a face full of Max Factor.

I don't want to go back to the days when transvestites were beaten up for dressing up, and it's wonderful that gay folk can go about their everyday business without hassle (mostly). I really don't care how people dress, what they call themselves, or who they sleep with, it's none of my business. But why screech in my face because I don't believe that wearing a dress means that you're a woman? I'm a woman and I don't even own a dress, I haven't worn a skirt in 20 years. It doesn't mean that I'm a man. I've got an absolute right to sleep with people of either sex, it doesn't mean that they don't have the right to turn me down. Whinging about others not being attracted to you is absolutely pointless, if you're a man who can't get laid because you're wearing a dress, then maybe don't wear a dress?

 

[weeweegie]

I’m laughing at Lorraine Kelly saying recent pictures of Madonna are ‘sleazy’. Can you imagine if it was Eddie Izzard dressed the same? She’d be all ‘look at how gorgeous and stunning Eddie is in these pictures’ it’s a sad day men in dresses get so much (fake) praise as women are still being judged. Talk about misogyny in plain sight