Gender Discussion #19

[maytoseptember]

Great news about Harrop! Common sense prevails at last, hopefully.

Have been reading this gross thread about AGPs and creepy men in clothing shops.



Like we didn’t already know how much women, especially young women, are expected to put up with in retail jobs, and not even complain about it. Made me think of the weird guy who always used to make a beeline for me at my Saturday job in a supermarket in my late teens/early 20s. He used to make my skin crawl. One day I was standing at a cash machine in town and somehow spotted me, crept up behind me and said hello in my ear

 

[HoGi]

Yes but they consider an opinion they don’t agree with to be ‘actual violence’. So until they work out what the word means I will not agree with any of their statistics.

Just need all the vile comments they direct to J K Rowling to be recorded as hate crimes towards women, then they will be so far in the minority

 

[Scotch Mist]

I know a lot of radfems have been uncomfortable with Arty for a while, and his (admittedly) drunken comments on Twitter about radfems with bloodlust for AGP deaths were really out of line.

My own thoughts are: The Mess We're In is there to discuss gender ideology and its harms, and as the viewing audience gets bigger, the political spectrum will get wider, and so will everyone's discomfort of who they are holding the line with. The only group I have absolutely no tolerance for in these spaces are p*edophiles, or those with views that would incite hatred to physically harm others although the former group has done a better job to infiltrate TRA movement, which is why we're seeing inappropriate things involving minors such as 'drag children', to deliberately blur the boundaries of what's appropriate and what children have the capacity to understand.

I don't consider Graham, Arty or any men feminists, that's my view, it won't be changed. I don't agree with Arty's views on AGP, he and Graham overlook the harms and destruction it causes to women and families, and the gaslighting of women to accept their partner's AGP, but I've never gone to their videos with the view it's a 'safe space' or feminist discussion platform; they've done a lot to help to bring the concerns about gender ideology to the wider public and it's gaining momentum with more press coverage, the BBC out of Stonewall etc.

I know others would want Arty out of the group or to reassess his sympathy for AGPs, but demanding purity for people in their politics is impossible, and Graham wouldn't kick Arty off the podcast. I do think it runs better when another woman is there alongside Helen, such as Rosie Duffield, Maya, etc.

While I agree that a man cant ever be a real feminist, we do need men on our side. I'm grateful for any men who don't agree with self ID and are vocal about it.

 

[CariettaWhite]

Just burst out laughing on a conference call over this.

Reminds me of Katie Price on CBB discussing Alex Reid and his fondness for having things up his bum - “I couldn’t put enough up there!!” which conjured up images of her desperately scanning the room for additional stuff, having already inserted the contents of the bedside cabinet, hairspray cans, a hot water bottle…

 

[maytoseptember]

Just wanted to add to the École Polytechnique massacre story… call me cynical but the anecdote told by Anastasia Preston, which we’re supposed to interpret as an example of violence against women and girls, reads very much like one of those AGP tales in which a trans woman is sexually assaulted… and they love telling the story because it makes them feel desirable and validated.

"i had a red dress on and I was walking through the crowd and somebody groped me. It was probably one of the most revolting experiences I've had in my life," she said.

"I couldn't believe that somebody would just … touch me like that. They felt they had the right to my body when they didn't."

I mean, ignoring the fact that a fleeting grope in a bar sits alongside a massacre… why are these retellings always so lascivious? I mean the detail about the red dress is so pointless, but maybe we’re supposed to deduce that Anastasia looked so good in the dress, that’s why she got groped? And then you see a photo of a very much non-passing individual and think… nope.

 

[emm]

Wish I had now. I actually liked their food but I've never been back since seeing that.

the thing is I feel sorry for people in a way (not the mysoginistic trans ones, ofc) but without this thread I would still be on the side of TWAW , there is almost nothing written in the mainstream newspapers I read about the problems with it. As I have said, i go to lots of feminist events (like the one I went to on Saturday) all of which don't seem to understand any problem with the TWAW movement and the "self id" thing, although I assume some people are (rightly) scared to speak up

I absolutely hate that trans is lumped in with LGB. There's a prominent Irish TiM who was all over Irish news for 'coming out' at work. He said that he had discussed it with HR and they decided they needn't tell anyone he was now trans as "If I came out as gay an announcement wouldn't be made". That's totally different. If you come out as gay it's no ones business but if you were one day a man and the next wanted to use the womens toilets and be called by a different name surely people should know?

exactly, your sex life is no one's business but your own, deciding to use women's spaces and changing your name/form of address very much affects everyone else (and by everyone I of course only mean women)

 

[nothanksbabes]

I've read many stories where the guy 'comes out' while the woman is pregnant or has recently given birth. One couple on YouTube - the guy told his wife he wanted to transition on their honeymoon. She stayed with him, but that would have been grounds for annulment, awful deception when women are vulnerable.

If it was my husband let's just say he wouldn't need a surgeon to cut his dick off for him.

 

[emm]

This is horrifyingly regressive.

the girl giude thing is just so worrying, if I was a parent with girls I would not want them involved at all in a Guides if there was a chance they could be supervised on trps etc by someone like this. It is just a matter of time until some poor girls are harmed because of the insistence on not offending this ridiculous group of people

 

[Cocobaby09]

Ok, as a trans inclusive lesbian I don’t understand how we’re being fucked over at all? All I see here are a bunch of bigots hiding behind misinformation in order to further their agenda. None of you here speak for me at all. I am shocked by the hysteria and hatred spewed on these threads. It reminds me of the homophobia of the 80s, and the apartheid of the USA and South Africa.

That’s a tad hyperbolic. But you’re entitled to your opinion.

 

[emm]

Completly random but I wonder how JK Rowling feels about the harry potter reunion, imagine knowing the people you have basically made famous making more money off your creation even when they have thrown you under the bus

 

[maytoseptember]

I was reading more about gender dysphoria as I am genuinely interested in it esp as the numbers of girls wanting to transition are rising. I don’t have a daughter but I have lots of nieces and friends with daughters who I love so I’m a bit worried for them. What I was reading is transitioning is just one ‘solution’ to getting rid of the dysphoria and that it’s very often rooted in trauma, in particular sexual abuse. The problem being though is that there’s such a quick leap to affirm from doctors (almost like a quick fix?) that the actual issues causing the dysphoria are not dealt with. That led me down a hole of reading about detransitioners. Very sad that these people (and there are way more than I thought), we’re crying out for help.

I read on another forum this week that girls with rapid onset gender dysphoria are so obviously on self-destruct mode. There’s nothing new about that, the only difference is the form it takes and the way it’s affirmed and legitimised by doctors. It’s more about destroying their bodies than becoming a “hot dude”. Whereas MTFs never give the impression that it’s about self-mutilation - they seem to have this delusional belief that they’re enhancing their bodies and look absolutely incredible.

Which is the difference between trans men and women in a nutshell if you ask me.

 

[CookieZippy]

Even when they whip out their penis, you still can't be sure these days.

 

[CariettaWhite]

Poor Desmond the “drag kid” is another excellent example of an autistic child brainwashed into thinking being surrounded by whooping males throwing money at him is normal.
His parents belong in jail. God, the fuss and vitriol some people aim at child beauty pageants… but if it’s a gay “trans” kid suddenly it’s lovely and wholesome.
These people - and their apologists - make me sick.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

The dancers are now worried they won’t be hired anywhere else as troublemakers. They can’t own their actions like Rosie has said what she said and stands up for it. I hope this hurts their careers, they have ended hers for no reason other than they didn’t agree with her. This is what affirming that contradictory opinions constitute ‘violence’ leads to.

As others had said before - this is not the same as racism or homophobia as those things are attacking who you are, rather than who you believe yourself to be and want other people to believe too.

Those who promote cancel culture are now worried they too themselves are cancelled.... don't they realise that the woke pendulum can swing back on them

 

[bcfc999]

Re the DM, I was also pretty TWAW and dismissive of articles because they came from the DM - I've been brought up to disbelieve anything they say that isn't provable by other means! Only when my sister told me a man in her office had suddenly demanded to be called by a woman's name and pronouns without making any alterations at all (not that I think putting on make up or a dress would make me take him more seriously tbf, womanhood isn't a costume) did I stop and think, hang on. For me it was definitely naivety and thinking that the likes of JKR were seeing bogeymen where they didn't exist - and for that I apologise because now I understand that this, in an office setting, is just the tip of the iceberg and that men really are just declaring womanhood in order to access safe spaces.

 

[HoGi]

This is clearly ridiculous and I'm sure it won't ever happen but the article alone will definitely peak some men I'm sure.

I was chatting about self ID to some men that I work with at the Xmas party on Friday night (TERFs know how to party) and they agree it is wrong on every level. They don't need peaking. The problem is they are just as afraid of repercussions and it doesn't affect them so they won't/don't fight like we will.

 

[Satisfying Click]

Eating disorders and/or other forms of self-harm were the social contagion for girls when I was a teen. It was a big problem in a nearby all-girls' school - the teachers found out the girls had a points system between them to compete with one another. One point if they they fainted in PE, one point if they got taken to hospital, one point if they spoke with the on-duty consultant etc.

All this was at a time where a mobile of choice was the Nokia 3310, no internet access, no social media.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I have mixed feelings on the Harrop outcome. On the one hand, it was feasible that he would get no sanction at all, and it is quite rare for the GMC to suspend anyone. So short as it is, even a one month suspension is quite symbolic and as others have said he will be extremely restricted in his practice moving forward. It's no bad thing IMO that he will basically be stuck at this trans clinic or whatever it is for the next 10 years; at least he's not going to be involved in providing care to women anymore (except trans ones which I imagine he has no issue with anyway). On the other hand, a month doesn't seem very long and it almost begs the question as to why they bothered. It's interesting he didn't bother appealing though, that makes me think he's been advised that he got off lightly too.

 

[Luisa18]

What in the actual fuck?!

You know what, let’s let them actually have periods. They’ll soon be changing their tune.

 

[Ruby’s mum]

It'll be a chilly day in Hades before I take my daughter to a Drag Queen Storytime, and no mistake.

She won't be growing up thinking that caricaturing/mocking women is ok.

I really can’t abide drag. I’m of an age when Danny la Rue was about the only drag performer who was regularly on tv. He was fairly innocuous but I always felt slightly uncomfortable with it. As time has gone on it has become vile and just seems totally misogynistic, openly taking the piss out of women. I can’t stand it and don’t think it is suitable for kids at all.