Dolly Alderton/Pandora Sykes

[TriviaNewtonJohn]

Fearne Cotton (god she annoys me), Joe Wicks, Chris Ramsey, All Killa No Filla etc somehow managed to create successful careers (I'm taking them from the top podcast list) without being posh and privileged. I do get that connections help, but also... it's possible to just be really good at what you do and make cool tit and people will enjoy it. Not that I think Fearne's crappy podcast is cool

Maybe not a silver spoon but Fearne has connections. Everything helps on TV. I know what you mean though some people have made it all on their own merits

Sir William Frederick Cotton CBE was a British television producer and executive, and the son of big-band leader Billy Cotton. The TV and radio presenter Fearne Cotton is related to him, as he was her paternal grandfather's cousin.

 

[Cloak]

Paternal grandfather's cousin? I think that's reaching a bit!

My paternal grandfather's cousin (not that I have any idea who that is) could've been a newspaper editor, but as I don't have any idea who that is, it wouldn't help me.

Also – that's a different topic, really. Nepotism, as opposed to class privilege. What's the issue at hand

 

[Lanavalentine]

With all respect because I am finding your points really interesting, so what about them having the certain contacts? My understanding is that they were fairly renowned journos (I really liked reading D's ST column) so they possibly would have had backing and finance from the ST in addition to certain contacts. But so what? Are they supposed to just quit their position because the world isn't fair? In my perspective it's admirable that they use their platform for good, donate the proceeds etc - that's way more than most do.

I'm not well off or anything but because of the area I grew up in, I used to constantly be called posh at school, in a really derogatory way. So that 'posh' gate strikes a chord with me because it is f*king annoying when all you are doing is being the only person you know how to be.

Not at all, I didn’t suggest they should quit?! Not quite sure how you got that from what I said.

I was replying to the statement that anyone can start a podcast, which is true, but not everyone has the connections they do to make it a success. That’s privilege in action.

As I’ve said in many previous posts now, my issue is that they continue to describe their lives as average, assume many of their experiences as millennial women are universal, and believe that their hard work was a bigger factor than their privilege in achieving their careers. Big respect to Pandora for admitting she has a nanny, and if they were honest more often I’d like them a lot more. I think the issue is though that they just don’t see their privilege in many respects because they live in a bubble, as most of us do to be fair, whether it’s a privileged one or not.

Sorry you get annoyed at being called posh.

Sick of typing the p word now!

 

[Cloak]

What is it 'in action' when other people make a successful podcast?

 

[Lanavalentine]

Fearne Cotton (god she annoys me), Joe Wicks, Chris Ramsey, All Killa No Filla etc somehow managed to create successful careers (I'm taking them from the top podcast list) without being posh and privileged. I do get that connections help, but also... it's possible to just be really good at what you do and make cool tit and people will enjoy it. Not that I think Fearne's crappy podcast is cool

There are like 10 D&P’s for every working class success story though. That’s the point. It’s far easier to get in and rise up when you know the right people and have the money to focus on your career completely. The people you mention are the exception to the general rule.

 

[Mbella]

With all respect because I am finding your points really interesting, so what about them having the certain contacts? My understanding is that they were fairly renowned journos (I really liked reading D's ST column) so they possibly would have had backing and finance from the ST in addition to certain contacts. But so what? Are they supposed to just quit their position because the world isn't fair? In my perspective it's admirable that they use their platform for good, donate the proceeds etc - that's way more than most do.

What irritates me (and I say this as an aspiring author who definitely doesn't have the contacts of Dolly and Pandora) is when privilege means people can get away with mediocre products. So many people struggle to get brilliant books published, so it's a little galling to see them get book deals due to their profile, coupled with heavy promotion across so many media outlets that perhaps isn't matched by the quality of work. Plus the point that many above have made (including me) that they are perhaps not quite honest enough about the extent of their advantages.

I think the High Low is a great podcast and I've listened since its inception, and I agree they do a lot to support and highlight others from different backgrounds and also support charities.

There's plenty of excellent work I love by "posh" writers: this is going back a bit, but Edith Wharton springs to mind as someone who wrote about the upper classes really, really well. But there's a lot of privilege in being permitted to produce a mediocre book that gets promoted so much it becomes a bestseller.

 

[ceebs233]

What irritates me (and I say this as an aspiring author who definitely doesn't have the contacts of Dolly and Pandora) is when privilege means people can get away with mediocre products. So many people struggle to get brilliant books published, so it's a little galling to see them get book deals due to their profile, coupled with heavy promotion across so many media outlets that perhaps isn't matched by the quality of work. Plus the point that many above have made (including me) that they are perhaps not quite honest enough about the extent of their advantages.

I think the High Low is a great podcast and I've listened since its inception, and I agree they do a lot to support and highlight others from different backgrounds and also support charities.

There's plenty of excellent work I love by "posh" writers: this is going back a bit, but Edith Wharton springs to mind as someone who wrote about the upper classes really, really well. But there's a lot of privilege in being permitted to produce a mediocre book that gets promoted so much it becomes a bestseller.

Yes I get you and agree it must be frustrating, especially when writing is something that really takes the guts and soul of the writer, so I totally know what you mean. But it's just like everything in the world; maybe I can make an amazing truffle chocolate and Cadbury's make a sub par one but they can go out en masse with it and make their millions because they have the resources to do so. Etc.

 

[Cloak]

There are like 10 D&P’s for every working class success story though. That’s the point. It’s far easier to get in and rise up when you know the right people and have the money to focus on your career completely. The people you mention are the exception to the general rule.

I do agree with you there. And yes, it's a bit annoying that some people have easier paths in their career. But in this case, they do produce a quality (mostly) podcast, they apologise profusely for their privilege, and they highlight minority/underrepresented talent, a lot. I'm not sure really what more they could do, unless they 'stood down' and let a working class plasterer from a Yorkshire mining town take over the podcast (I jest).

 

[Lanavalentine]

What is it 'in action' when other people make a successful podcast?

I don’t really know what you mean by this.

I’m not saying every successful podcaster ever has mounds of privilege. I’m saying that generally, the connections needed to make a podcast successful out of the gate can come from privilege (or having a very established career and inbuilt fan base, or financial backing, or a combination of all things, or whatever else).

I do agree with you there. And yes, it's a bit annoying that some people have easier paths in their career. But in this case, they do produce a quality (mostly) podcast, they apologise profusely for their privilege, and they highlight minority/underrepresented talent, a lot. I'm not sure really what more they could do, unless they 'stood down' and let a working class plasterer from a Yorkshire mining town take over the podcast (I jest).

I guess we just disagree then, which is fair enough. I did say that I appreciate, for example, them bringing Black authors onto the podcast. In general, I just find in many ways they continue to downplay their privilege. I’m not really listening to the podcast anymore so perhaps I’m missing their profuse apologies! I don’t really think an apology is what’s needed though, more just an admittance of privilege, which is a bit different in my mind.

To be fair, I think I focus on this far more than others because I have worked in a similar line to D&P, with women very similar to them, and as someone from a working class background who is now often assumed to be from a rich middle class family and therefore “one of them”, I notice a lot of tiny attitudes and incidences in the day-to-day lives of my colleagues and friends where you can tell they just do not compute what life is like for a large percentage of the country, and I notice it in D&P too. That is absolutely not their fault, but again, going back to my original point about D&P, when you try to frame yourself as the “everywoman”, it can mean you end up seeming a bit of a knob at times!

 

[Cloak]

I don’t really know what you mean by this.
I notice a lot of tiny attitudes and incidences in the day-to-day lives of my colleagues and friends where you can tell they just do not compute what life is like for a large percentage of the country, and I notice it in D&P too.

That's interesting, can I ask a bit more about what that looks like? (Genuinely, I am interested, so not trying to say it doesn't happen or anything!)

 

[Whiskers]

I feel a bit of both things when it comes to D&P. It grates on me that they feel they have to apologise so much, I don’t think men get attacked in the same way for this. But equally I was taken aback to see Pandora’s house on Instagram, a few weeks after they were talking about struggling on internships and times of no money.

I totally agree about Pandora’s writing though, I felt the same about Bella Mackie recently. Would she be where she is without her dad being Alan Rusbridger?

 

[Mbella]

Yes I get you and agree it must be frustrating, especially when writing is something that really takes the guts and soul of the writer, so I totally know what you mean. But it's just like everything in the world; maybe I can make an amazing truffle chocolate and Cadbury's make a sub par one but they can go out en masse with it and make their millions because they have the resources to do so. Etc.

But Cadbury's sub par chocolate isn't treated as if it's "game changing" and a "literary sensation"

I totally appreciate that life isn't fair... doesn't mean I don't enjoy moaning about it though

 

[Lanavalentine]

That's interesting, can I ask a bit more about what that looks like? (Genuinely, I am interested, so not trying to say it doesn't happen or anything!)

Of course. off the top of my head...

Colleagues being utterly shocked that I’ve never gone skiing and didn’t do a ski season as a young adult, and joking that I missed out on an important rite of passage and that my childhood must have been miserable. See also: the assumption that I can ride horses, that I went to private school because I’m “not thick”.

Being asked to meet colleagues at Soho House but not having a membership (because it’s just not important to me), so having to sheepishly ask someone to sign me in as a guest and then just feeling the imposter syndrome when I was in there, making me feel less confident and vocal in a work meeting.


Early on in my career as a lowly assistant, being asked to contribute £50 to someone’s leaving present and getting attitude and being called “not a team player” because I outright told them I couldn’t afford it. The other assistants were more the D&P type so they contributed no problem.

My real name is quite “sloaney pony” and I don’t have a working class accent (kind of accentless in that southern way I guess!), so every now and again I’ll hear someone say something quite ridiculous without realising it’s people like me they’re talking about. Just snobby generalisations really, or really short-sighted opinions, like rich people just work harder (can confirm, I am way richer now than my family were as a child and no way do I work as hard as my parents did!!). I find a lot of rich, upper middle class millennials vote Labour but say some very Tory-esque stuff in private, not realising how they come across.

 

[ceebs233]

Of course. off the top of my head...

Colleagues being utterly shocked that I’ve never gone skiing and didn’t do a ski season as a young adult, and joking that I missed out on an important rite of passage and that my childhood must have been miserable. See also: the assumption that I can ride horses, that I went to private school because I’m “not thick”.

Being asked to meet colleagues at Soho House but not having a membership (because it’s just not important to me), so having to sheepishly ask someone to sign me in as a guest and then just feeling the imposter syndrome when I was in there, making me feel less confident and vocal in a work meeting.


Early on in my career as a lowly assistant, being asked to contribute £50 to someone’s leaving present and getting attitude and being called “not a team player” because I outright told them I couldn’t afford it. The other assistants were more the D&P type so they contributed no problem.

My real name is quite “sloaney pony” and I don’t have a working class accent (kind of accentless in that southern way I guess!), so every now and again I’ll hear someone say something quite ridiculous without realising it’s people like me they’re talking about. Just snobby generalisations really, or really short-sighted opinions, like rich people just work harder (can confirm, I am way richer now than my family were as a child and no way do I work as hard as my parents did!!). I find a lot of rich, upper middle class millennials vote Labour but say some very Tory-esque stuff in private, not realising how they come across.

I empathise and agree with everything here, been there and done that. But yes maybe because you've tuned out of the podcast you have missed the (tiresome) constant apologising that's been happening (because it sure has been happening)

 

[Lanavalentine]

I empathise and agree with everything here, been there and done that. But yes maybe because you've tuned out of the podcast you have missed the (tiresome) constant apologising that's been happening (because it sure has been happening)

fair enough!

 

[blossombloss]

Of course. off the top of my head...

Colleagues being utterly shocked that I’ve never gone skiing and didn’t do a ski season as a young adult, and joking that I missed out on an important rite of passage and that my childhood must have been miserable. See also: the assumption that I can ride horses, that I went to private school because I’m “not thick”.

Being asked to meet colleagues at Soho House but not having a membership (because it’s just not important to me), so having to sheepishly ask someone to sign me in as a guest and then just feeling the imposter syndrome when I was in there, making me feel less confident and vocal in a work meeting.


Early on in my career as a lowly assistant, being asked to contribute £50 to someone’s leaving present and getting attitude and being called “not a team player” because I outright told them I couldn’t afford it. The other assistants were more the D&P type so they contributed no problem.

My real name is quite “sloaney pony” and I don’t have a working class accent (kind of accentless in that southern way I guess!), so every now and again I’ll hear someone say something quite ridiculous without realising it’s people like me they’re talking about. Just snobby generalisations really, or really short-sighted opinions, like rich people just work harder (can confirm, I am way richer now than my family were as a child and no way do I work as hard as my parents did!!). I find a lot of rich, upper middle class millennials vote Labour but say some very Tory-esque stuff in private, not realising how they come across.

Sorry I had to comment because £50 for a leaving present!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought working in one of the big four and having to shell out for leaving gifts as well as leaving lunches and drinks was bad enough because you ultimately end up spending over £50. But to ask for £50 from one person?? Wtf were they buying that person! Wow that's a work place I'm glad I've never been in lol

 

[Lanavalentine]

Sorry I had to comment because £50 for a leaving present!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought working in one of the big four and having to shell out for leaving gifts as well as leaving lunches and drinks was bad enough because you ultimately end up spending over £50. But to ask for £50 from one person?? Wtf were they buying that person! Wow that's a work place I'm glad I've never been in lol

They were buying her a designer bag.

It was quite common to buy really lavish gifts for wedding presents, leaving presents, new babies etc in that particular workplace as almost everyone was from a very rich background. Also would get invited on team nights out and they’d be to quite expensive restaurants and you’d be expected to pay for yourself like a more average workplace might have a night out at Pizza Express or something. It was just completely normal to them.

Sorry, this is all kind of off topic now and has nothing to do with Dolly & Pandora!

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

We cannot ignore the fact that they really go out of their way to bring in different voices and different perspectives though, come on. That's a huge part of their podcast!

I honestly think I'm the only one who is sick of them apologising for/admitting their privilege. I feel like they do it every 5 minutes to the point I want a disclaimer on at the start of their podcast that you can skip. Who cares? Is there any point? I think at this point the responsibility is on the reader or listener to manage their own feelings around that, like be a big girl and realise everyone has a different path in life, some luckier than others, just get on with it

They do a lot right and I agree mostly with what you’re saying but I think it’s a legitimate point that a lot of broadcasters/ writers come from the same background and while they regularly recogGreat that they give a voice to writers from different backgrounds and they recognise their privilege to an extent.

What irritates me (and I say this as an aspiring author who definitely doesn't have the contacts of Dolly and Pandora) is when privilege means people can get away with mediocre products. So many people struggle to get brilliant books published, so it's a little galling to see them get book deals due to their profile, coupled with heavy promotion across so many media outlets that perhaps isn't matched by the quality of work. Plus the point that many above have made (including me) that they are perhaps not quite honest enough about the extent of their advantages.

I think the High Low is a great podcast and I've listened since its inception, and I agree they do a lot to support and highlight others from different backgrounds and also support charities.

There's plenty of excellent work I love by "posh" writers: this is going back a bit, but Edith Wharton springs to mind as someone who wrote about the upper classes really, really well. But there's a lot of privilege in being permitted to produce a mediocre book that gets promoted so much it becomes a bestseller.

I think it’s the extent of privilege thing for me too. It’s as if by mentioning it it’s covered and no one can bring it up because they‘ve dealt with it. And anyone that does bring it up is jealous/ bitter/ it’s on them.

I‘m not sure where these feelings come from. Maybe I am bitter and resentful to an extent but I think part of it comes from being a teacher for the past 10 years and seeing cuts to the arts side of the curriculum to the extend that it barely exists but in private school such an emphasis is put on arts and the opportunities are a world away from mainstream school so that you do get that confidence to embark on creative endeavours and you get told from a young age that the arts are important, not just something you can explore if you have the time and money.

I’ve seen so many students with amazing talent who will never ever get the opportunity to explore their potential because they are so so far behind by the time they leave high school in terms of confidence, contacts, practical knowledge and money but mainly they already know that they don’t belong.

I’ve never heard anyone come close to acknowledging that I’m their privilege disclaimer.

Uff mangled two replies there.

I feel a bit of both things when it comes to D&P. It grates on me that they feel they have to apologise so much, I don’t think men get attacked in the same way for this. But equally I was taken aback to see Pandora’s house on Instagram, a few weeks after they were talking about struggling on internships and times of no money.

I totally agree about Pandora’s writing though, I felt the same about Bella Mackie recently. Would she be where she is without her dad being Alan Rusbridger?

I was taken aback by her house too. I really like her kitchen though!

Agree re Bella Mackie. I like her writing well enough and find it genuinely funny at times but There is no way she would be where she is if it wasn’t for her connections.

Also, I first read Bella on the basis of a High Low rec that in retrospect really bugs me. They were talking about an article Bella wrote and were really gushing about the writing. They referenced her father and one of them said something along the lines of ‘she has writing in her bones and you can so tell...’ and it was like WTF is that what we’re calling it now?!

They often really go overboard about mediocre writers who essentially are just like them

 

[Sunburnsjess]

Agree re Bella Mackie. I like her writing well enough and find it genuinely funny at times but There is no way she would be where she is if it wasn’t for her connections.

Also, I first read Bella on the basis of a High Low rec that in retrospect really bugs me. They were talking about an article Bella wrote and were really gushing about the writing. They referenced her father and one of them said something along the lines of ‘she has writing in her bones and you can so tell...’ and it was like WTF is that what we’re calling it now?!

They often really go overboard about mediocre writers who essentially are just like them

Sorry not to hijack dolly/Pandora’s thread but can I just say I also read Bella mackie’s book ‘jog on’ on their recommendation and found it so so dull. Really struggled to get through it and actually thought it was really poorly written and repetitive.

Anyway, agree that dolly/pandora do love to make it seem like they’re so relatable when they just aren’t for so many, but like others have said I feel they do a much better job than most when it comes to checking their privilege and using their platform to interview less privileged voices/POC.

 

[Love_hate_small_town]

Sorry not to hijack dolly/Pandora’s thread but can I just say I also read Bella mackie’s book ‘jog on’ on their recommendation and found it so so dull. Really struggled to get through it and actually thought it was really poorly written and repetitive.

Anyway, agree that dolly/pandora do love to make it seem like they’re so relatable when they just aren’t for so many, but like others have said I feel they do a much better job than most when it comes to checking their privilege and using their platform to interview less privileged voices/POC.

I’ve just been trying to think of other writers who check their privilege and actually it’s true that Pandora and Dolly do make more of an effort to do so and to use their platform to give others a voice. Maybe I’m more annoyed at the system and minor things they do