I wonder if Pandora has the same book deal that Bella Mackie and Dolly and others seem to have - if you have an already established audience you write a non-fiction book and then you get to write a novel. Thus making it even harder for aspiring authors without big followings to get published I imagine? Emma Gannon has now written a novel too I think, after non-fiction books.
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The books are done to make money not because they are great authors. Publishing exist to make money really and not just publish great voices (which is fine because "great" is relative). But it's much easier to make the money back on books by authors who have an established audience. I would say these books can be good for lesser-known authors because the money gets invested in them, but I think that's wishful thinking. But I do think it does allow them to take a chance on debuts a lot more because they have the cash cows.
Wow! I started Dolly’s book about a month ago (I know) and find it so relatable it’s unreal. I’m really surprised about the comments about her coming from a rich/privileged background because that’s not my background at all and I don’t really know much else about her other than the book. Other than the almost derelict house share I feel like I’m reading my own earlier life 
It takes me a while to get through books because I flitter back and fourth between a few at a time but I’m actually really enjoying it.
It takes me a while to get through books because I flitter back and fourth between a few at a time but I’m actually really enjoying it.So I read the free kindle sample. And first thing I wanna say is that I was really surprised when i read dolly’s book last summer. I’ve said here before but it was far better and far funnier than I thought it would be and I held my hands up then and admitted I was wrong. I wasn’t above holding them up regarding Pandora’s offering to the world if I thought I’d been unfair in my assumptions...
I wasn’t though. Whoever first said it’s saturated with other people’s opinions, that’s bang on. It feels tediously over researched, the work of someone who at school worked hard and got good grades jumping through hoops ... but she never had an original thought in her life. Or had the courage too. Hence an inability to critically assess what Intelligent statement to include and what isn’t really relevant or useful.
So the kindle sample gives you the short introduction, in which I counted five quotes from other writers, and the first essay (on wellness culture ) in which I quickly lost count of so-called sources ( she rarely develops or returns to the ideas she quotes either). This screenshot I felt well sums up that earnest undergraduate tone - Michel Foucault crops up in some form on just about every BA humanities course in the country. (Of course you will notice another quote from a completely different person on this page too).
What else? I didn’t read one thing about wellness culture I’ve not heard discussed in a podcast or read in an article or even talked about with friends before. Yes we know it’s all over Instagram, yes we know it’s based on (at best) flimsy science and impossible to achieve lifestyles. Yes we know it’s a new way people restrict calories and it has a name - orthorexia. We know the value of wellness as a marketing term in 2020, it’s hardly a rising trend but a well established and hugely profitable industry - as she says herself, Sainsbury’s has a whole wellness aisle. We know it also can be used as a moral judgement - that “clean” eating is a problematic concept and term. We’ve been laughing about Goop for over a decade, so when she lists all the whacky products associated with wellness like crystals or mooncups it’s like mmm a lot of the things that started out niche there are probably available in the Sainsbury’s aisle now... so what’s your point ?
the girl doesn’t even have any of the associated problems privileged people have. The audacity!(please understand I am saying that and the following tongue in cheek and semi-ironically. Of course I’m not criticising her for not having suffered an ED though I am questioning what on Earth she brings to the table on this subject ) She’s never had an eating disorder or even been neurotic about weight, her family all seem to get on swimmingly and just love to sit down and eat together (the extent of her adversity appears to be that shes always liked lunch earlier than her families preferred time of 2pm).
to be fair, a few interesting concepts come up. The way Buddhism is used to sell stuff as no other religion could be co-opted, techorexia was a new term to me and one interesting thought of her own, how our generation is cynical and used to calling out tit while at the same time eats up so much nonsense. None of it is explored tho, there isn’t room. Any vaguely intriguing idea is buried in a torrent of quotes, wry thoughts and quirky references.
I know my opinion means duck all but there it is.
I wasn’t though. Whoever first said it’s saturated with other people’s opinions, that’s bang on. It feels tediously over researched, the work of someone who at school worked hard and got good grades jumping through hoops ... but she never had an original thought in her life. Or had the courage too. Hence an inability to critically assess what Intelligent statement to include and what isn’t really relevant or useful.
So the kindle sample gives you the short introduction, in which I counted five quotes from other writers, and the first essay (on wellness culture ) in which I quickly lost count of so-called sources ( she rarely develops or returns to the ideas she quotes either). This screenshot I felt well sums up that earnest undergraduate tone - Michel Foucault crops up in some form on just about every BA humanities course in the country. (Of course you will notice another quote from a completely different person on this page too).
What else? I didn’t read one thing about wellness culture I’ve not heard discussed in a podcast or read in an article or even talked about with friends before. Yes we know it’s all over Instagram, yes we know it’s based on (at best) flimsy science and impossible to achieve lifestyles. Yes we know it’s a new way people restrict calories and it has a name - orthorexia. We know the value of wellness as a marketing term in 2020, it’s hardly a rising trend but a well established and hugely profitable industry - as she says herself, Sainsbury’s has a whole wellness aisle. We know it also can be used as a moral judgement - that “clean” eating is a problematic concept and term. We’ve been laughing about Goop for over a decade, so when she lists all the whacky products associated with wellness like crystals or mooncups it’s like mmm a lot of the things that started out niche there are probably available in the Sainsbury’s aisle now... so what’s your point ?
the girl doesn’t even have any of the associated problems privileged people have. The audacity!(please understand I am saying that and the following tongue in cheek and semi-ironically. Of course I’m not criticising her for not having suffered an ED though I am questioning what on Earth she brings to the table on this subject ) She’s never had an eating disorder or even been neurotic about weight, her family all seem to get on swimmingly and just love to sit down and eat together (the extent of her adversity appears to be that shes always liked lunch earlier than her families preferred time of 2pm).
to be fair, a few interesting concepts come up. The way Buddhism is used to sell stuff as no other religion could be co-opted, techorexia was a new term to me and one interesting thought of her own, how our generation is cynical and used to calling out tit while at the same time eats up so much nonsense. None of it is explored tho, there isn’t room. Any vaguely intriguing idea is buried in a torrent of quotes, wry thoughts and quirky references.
I know my opinion means duck all but there it is.
The extract you put in is really jarring to read. The first quote in it is really unnecessary. I’m going to pass on it for sure.
The word earnest nails her tone.I heard her on an Australian podcast this week talking about how when she was a child she used to set herself easy maths problems so that she could then give herself full marks. I think that sums up her approach. In the dame interview she claimed to have coined the term ‘smirting’ (smoking and flirting) around the time of the smoking ban. I was a smoker then (sigh) and everyone was talking about how the smoking ban was resulting in lots of flirting/ new friend chat in the smoking Area and ‘smirting’ was definitely not an original sentiment but she genuinely thought she was the first person to think of it.
Wow, just found this thread! Long time listener of pandolly / High Low
I really like them generally, The person who said about not having to relate to them hit the nail on the head. I listen to them every week and think they are quite diverse with their content and try and be inclusive. They are extremely privileged ladies but I think they have good hearts which is an important thing really.
Sometimes they can be a tad obnoxious though (panny d was the WORST!) But they actually make me want to read more, expand my vocabulary and take in the world, this thread has opened some really great points especially as someone from a working class background, I definitely feel inferior to them it can’t be denied, they have a way with words that I find intimidating, but if anything it pushes me to want to learn more x
I really like them generally, The person who said about not having to relate to them hit the nail on the head. I listen to them every week and think they are quite diverse with their content and try and be inclusive. They are extremely privileged ladies but I think they have good hearts which is an important thing really.
Sometimes they can be a tad obnoxious though (panny d was the WORST!) But they actually make me want to read more, expand my vocabulary and take in the world, this thread has opened some really great points especially as someone from a working class background, I definitely feel inferior to them it can’t be denied, they have a way with words that I find intimidating, but if anything it pushes me to want to learn more x
Listening to a podcast episode that Pandora was on to promote the book and she says they’re definitely more careful with what they say on the show. They have a sub editor and fact checker who goes through the script to check they haven’t got anything wrong. Which explains the change some people have seen in the podcast. Oh, and she doesn’t watch telly during the week or sleep which apparently explains all the reading. (I still don’t think they necessarily have read/watched everything they recommend, a lot will be stuff by friends/publishers they work for etc)
And I think Pandora’s book is going to be a little bit marmite, the early reviews kinda confirming my thoughts
And I think Pandora’s book is going to be a little bit marmite, the early reviews kinda confirming my thoughts
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I’m going to have to listen to the podcast now!!
I actually get annoyed about the fact they discuss a topic and then now you can guarantee that the following week they will be apologising that they hadn’t considered x,y & z’s point of view. Sometimes it’s great they’ve don’t it but they do it every time so it doesn’t sound genuine any more. Also own it! They’ve discussed it - great. Listeners should be aware enough to know that they can’t cover everything! It greats on me that they aren’t confident in their own voice and opinion!
Dolly's book has definitely split opinion. I'm glad that lots of people have enjoyed it, but you can see by the extent of 1-star reviews on Amazon that lots of people share my views!
I had to laugh though when I read an interview with her somewhere about her forthcoming novel, where she said how she was tired of writing about herself. So I understand her novel's about a writer in her thirties living in London... very different!
I had to laugh though when I read an interview with her somewhere about her forthcoming novel, where she said how she was tired of writing about herself. So I understand her novel's about a writer in her thirties living in London... very different!
I find that with a lot of podcasts these days and it is rarely about anything major so I do think they should stick to their guns. I remember a couple of years ago just as it was getting really big it seemed that every week they were getting scolded by a listener about one thing or another.
I think having a sub editor is a great idea but I kind of wish they just did the podcast free flow and then edited it afterwards which I realise would be way more work but it has lost something over past year. It sounds like they are bored with it.
yeah to be fair I remember an episode a couple of years back where they were quite upset at some emails they’d gotten, and said something along the lines of “we’re only human, we’re not perfect”.
I think it’s a shame if people were sending them scathing and nasty emails, that’s not on. However, I don’t agree listeners should just move on if they feel D&P didn’t do justice to a certain viewpoint. I’d email them if I felt the need, but I’d do it respectfully and politely.
Perhaps where they’re going wrong is discussing the emails or tweets etc the following week? I don’t know what the answer is as presumably they need to acknowledge people but they can’t answer every email etc.
It’s a tough one. Like I said, I’m not listening lately but it sounds like there is a lot of apologising going on, and I think that’s always going to lead to people pilling on via email etc. I think there is a clear difference between apology and admittance (“I hadn’t thought of it like that before”) and with everything, the privilege, the missed viewpoints, it should be latter and not the former.
To be fair I really enjoyed Dolly's memoir! Our backgrounds are totally different but I recognised the people she spoke about at uni and related to her life in London (obvs without the spare cash and working on Made in Chelsea) plus I thought it was quite funny!Wow! I started Dolly’s book about a month ago (I know) and find it so relatable it’s unreal. I’m really surprised about the comments about her coming from a rich/privileged background because that’s not my background at all and I don’t really know much else about her other than the book. Other than the almost derelict house share I feel like I’m reading my own earlier life
I find this discussion so interesting!
I don't think they should apologise for their privilege every 2 seconds. I do think they acknowledge it - I have heard them both say they were lucky in the way that they got into their careers. They do highlight the work of other authors and give a platform to Black authors. But I think they just need to own it more. They have not lived the life of the average woman as they both come from a privileged background with lots of wealth - which is fine! But they both seem to want to appear to be just another normal woman one minute in an attempt to be relatable to the masses, and then the next they are apologising for being privileged and showing that they really don't understand how the other half live. It just seems inconsistent to me.
Similarly Pandoras attitude to influencers and social media- she does the influencer thing when it suits her and then looks down on it the rest of the time.
I don't dislike them though. Can't relate to them at all but I don't think it is necessary to be able to.
I don't think they should apologise for their privilege every 2 seconds. I do think they acknowledge it - I have heard them both say they were lucky in the way that they got into their careers. They do highlight the work of other authors and give a platform to Black authors. But I think they just need to own it more. They have not lived the life of the average woman as they both come from a privileged background with lots of wealth - which is fine! But they both seem to want to appear to be just another normal woman one minute in an attempt to be relatable to the masses, and then the next they are apologising for being privileged and showing that they really don't understand how the other half live. It just seems inconsistent to me.
Similarly Pandoras attitude to influencers and social media- she does the influencer thing when it suits her and then looks down on it the rest of the time.
I don't dislike them though. Can't relate to them at all but I don't think it is necessary to be able to.
Hilarious! I’m just not getting the impression from the book that she was well off or anything like that, her background feels as though it’s much the same as mine and her life growing up in London and going through teenage-20’s sounds similar with the stuff I got up to and places I went etc. Perhaps I missed something
I thought her parents had quite normal jobs and she didn’t get much from them. She makes it appear as though she was always broke. I’m definitely going to give the podcast a go though.
That’s really interesting about the sub-editor etc. I used to adore the podcast and it was a must listen as soon as a new episode appeared, but now I’m never that excited and it has started to annoy me. The repeated privilege apologising is really tedious, as you have all discussed already. Basically glad it isn’t just me! I need a new podcast love though!
I’m really enjoying Katherine Ryan’s one if you haven’t already tried that
Dolly may have given the impression of being broke but she had the best possible start in lifeHilarious! I’m just not getting the impression from the book that she was well off or anything like that, her background feels as though it’s much the same as mine and her life growing up in London and going through teenage-20’s sounds similar with the stuff I got up to and places I went etc. Perhaps I missed something
I’m definitely going to give the podcast a go though.
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I remember reading this at the time and finding it refreshing that she would dedicate a column to that. A very interesting topic and at least she is self aware enough to recognise her success and good grades doesn't mean she was just born smarter/better.
It's a catch 22 with privilege I think. If they don't mention it, someone will no doubt complain, but if you listen to every one of the podcast episodes, it does seem like they're always acknowledging it.
I haven't read Pandora's book and it doesn't appeal to me really - did buy Dolly's and really liked it, thought the sentiments about friends and the love you have for them were really relatable. I am a bit sick of anyone with a bit of a social media following getting a book deal though. Seems to be the way publishing works now.
I haven't read Pandora's book and it doesn't appeal to me really - did buy Dolly's and really liked it, thought the sentiments about friends and the love you have for them were really relatable. I am a bit sick of anyone with a bit of a social media following getting a book deal though. Seems to be the way publishing works now.
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