Assisted Dying

[TheMiceInTheShed]

A leading story on BBC news today cos the Archbishop of Canterbury is of course opposed to it but unless you're CofE his opinion is worth no more than mine or yours. He's not one of our elected representatives. The article points out he's out of step with the general public who are majority in favour. Religious leaders shouldn't have anymore influence on this issue than anyone else given most of the British public don't look to them for guidance.

I'm CofE (and am a licensed minister) but frankly I have no respect for "Wokeby" or any of his opinions. He's not infallible and in my personal opinion is destroying the Church of England.

I do oppose assisted dying - but only because I fear that it will be abused in ways that we can't predict, and will end up being a legal imposition of eugenics, and a way of getting rid of "useless mouths" in the general population.

I know that they say "Oh, we'll make the laws watertight", but that won't happen. Look at the current "trans" carry on. No-one defined "woman" or "man" in the legal documentation because it was obvious what these groups were . . . and to sensible people it is still obvious, but people with an agenda have gained enormous political power and muddied the waters so much that everyone is frightened to speak out about it.

Look at surrogacy. All of those restrictions, all of those caveats to protect women from exploitation, and babies from being trafficked, and yet women are being exploited and babies are being trafficked.

The same will happen with assisted dying. It will start off all good intentions, then profit will rear its ugly head, and then we are ALL lost.

 

[moldwarp]

I'm here because the priest at church yesterday went off on one about this topic, it kind of went over my head beforehand. (Unsurprisingly the Eastern Orthodox Church is not in favour of assisted dying, just in case anyone was desperate to know!).

I'm in favour of allowing assisted dying because if I was almost completely mentally gone through dementia, or knew I was terminally ill to the extent I only had pain to look forward to, I would definitely want to choose the manner and timing of my dying. Also, on a purely logical level, I'm in favour of abortion on request (and think our abortion laws should be loosened up to make it easier to access) so I can't exactly agree with ending life at its very start but disagree with ending it at the other end of the timeline, if you see what I mean?

But what gives me pause is how open it could be to abuse. Very ill people are mentally and emotionally vulnerable, what if they felt pressured? If you're whacked out on heavy duty painkillers, how much can you really be said to be making fully formed and unforced consent? Same with someone with dementia?

I'd also be worried about people potentially trying to use it in instances where they are not terminally ill, for example I'm sure there was a case of a youngish Danish (?) woman choosing to end her life at Dignitas because of chronic depression, for me that's just dreadful, I really think it sends a terrible message to people struggling with their mental health: basically saying, well we might not be able to cure you and if you happen to be an intractable case, well we won't bother to try new avenues or be patient and bear with you - might just be easier if you self-delete. Given that, at the acute end, MH treatment is about suicide prevention, that would just be a contradiction too far.

I also do worry if it might cheapen or reduce the value in certain kinds of human life. Like, accidentally giving the message that if you are very infirm or profoundly disabled, then really you should be thinking about ending it all rather than instead striving and fighting for the best possible life you can attain. I worry that it might create two tiers of human life, one more worthy than the other, if you see what I mean.

extremely difficult one and glad I don't have to personally make the decision on this.

 

[Foxvint]

I have a neurological condition that has already rendered me paraplegic and will gradually take more and more from me, until I am not me anymore . My swallow is already unreliable. I rely on a supra pubic catheter and have a stoma bag.

While my quality of life now is fine, it is very different to my old life. I am surrounded by the best of friends and an incredibly supportive family.

As my disease takes more from me, losing my swallow, the use of my arms, being unable to sit unassisted, needing to be hoisted everytime I need to move, requiring bed baths and having my hair washed over the end of my bed. Losing my speech. Not being able to tell my children I love them again. Or how proud I am of them. Or to laugh with them again.

I am 44. I could live for years, bed bound, unable to communicate, totally reliant on care 24/7.

I have no desire to put my family though that. I don't want to go through that. We have discussed it at length. I wish I lived somewhere where I could make the choice about my life, with the support of my family. Where I could die a 'good' death, surrounded by those who I love with the things - music, scents etc , that comfort me.

Instead I face dying a cruel death, paralysed (for want of a better word,) with a complete loss of facilities, completely reliant on other people to wipe my dribble and use cough assist on me.

No thank you. Not for me.

(I didn't write this for any sympathy, I am as OK as I can be with it all and have reached a level of acceptance.)

Let me choose.

I am in awe of you. This is powerful.

 

[Witchfinder Sargeant]

Our generation faces working til we're 70. Caring for elderly parents will absolutely not be on the agenda for me on top of that and I feel zero guilt on that front.

Women already experience higher levels of poverty in retirement due to career breaks in their early working life to take care of children, which has knock-on effects on their pensions.

I have colleagues who are feeling extraordinary guilt because they are torn between the needs of their children and their elderly parents and they cannot take care of both while working.

My concerns about the assisted dying bill are primarily around safeguards against coercion, and the current state of both social care and palliative care.

The majority of local authorities in the UK are social care providers with a weird sideline in bins and streetlights. Hampshire spends 83% of its budget on the provision of social care services to adults and children, as an example.

I can easily see a situation where social care is further undermined and underfunded because assisted dying is available, and given a choice between inadequate and underfunded care or assisted death, people may feel coerced into a decision that they didn't really want to make.

Financial abuse and coercion of the elderly and/or otherwise vulnerable is a thing already. If your parents having an assisted death means you can pay off the mortgage, rather than see that money be handed over to the private equity firm who owns the care home, there will be people who pressure their parents to go down that route.

 

[HockyRorror]

I voted maybe before reading the thread but after reading other people’s posts I changed it to yes. It was a maybe originally only because it has to be done right, I feel, as it has the potential to be abused. But like others have said, it’s humane for us to do it to pets and animals so why not humans?

 

[Foxvint]

I've nursed many dying people in my career. I have witnessed horrific deaths where symptoms can't be managed effectively. I've sadly seen families and loved ones in absaoloute agony watching the person the love they die slowly.
I've nursed people who tell me that they have no quality left in life and are scared for the future as their health condition is going to progress.
I have, of course, nursed people who have a peaceful death where their symptoms are managed well.
Assisted death is something I support and would choose for myself if I felt was necessary.

I've personally found your view universal amongst nurses which says a lot to me.

 

[LittleMy]

My views haven’t changed. I’m glad it’s being taken seriously and I hope the bill goes ahead for the sake of the people who are crying out for it. I would also like it to be an option for myself if I were to ever become terminally ill in the future.

 

[moldwarp]

I'm entirely in favour of assisted dying. For any reason you choose. If you want to end your life you shouldn't have to do it in a way that may cause you or others more pain. No one should have to throw themselves off a bridge, no one should have to throw themselves in front of a train and no one should survive a failed attempt and now be profoundly disabled by it, further enhancing their suffering.

Ethics committees exist, there's no reason to assume that doctors would persuade people to end their lives when it isn't in their best interests, they swear an oath now and we don't suspect them of not following those promises now, do we? Doctors don't force women to have abortions so why would they start forcing the elderly or the disabled to choose a quick death?

I think we should dissuade people from committing suicide, not aid them. Not least because all the literature and research on the subject strongly suggests that the suicidal state is rarely continuous and can be made worse through alcohol or drugs (which are a factor in 90% of cases). I think we should be wrapping our arms round the suicidal and trying to help them see that despite all its faults and terrors, life is beautiful, and worth living.

The way you feel in one month may not be the way you feel the following month. If an easy way out were offered on tap then I'd've definitely taken it when I was in my 20s (in and out of mental hospitals and ED units). But now, I'm so glad I didn't, and so grateful to be alive even though it was a long slog and hard work to get to the good mental health I enjoy today.

I don't think death should be presented as just one more consumer choice in our hypercapitalist culture. I really think we as human beings would lose something precious and profound, if we did that.

 

[ThePowderMonkey]

I think it's very telling that the people who've watched a loved one die are almost unanimously in favour of assisted dying. Same for all the nurses I've met.

I think most opposition goes back to deeply entrenched religious ideas of how only God gets to take you.

I watched both my wonderful parents die long, drawn-out and horrible deaths from cancer. My lovely grannie died with hideous dementia, no longer the woman we knew. Would I have released them from that if I could? You bet! Do I think it should be brought into law? NO!

My opposition has nothing to do with my Christian faith, and everything to do with the fact that the "watertight" laws surrounding it would very soon be fudged and abused until people were being guilted or pushed into assisted death, or governments began killing people who were going to cost too much to provide healthcare for.

I greatly fear these conditions (or similar) for myself and would truly rather be dead than be in such pain or, in the case of dementia, giving such grief to my children - but I still oppose it.

This is a very steep and slippery slope and I dread the country stepping onto it.

Couldn’t it be decided when you’re young and able to decide without any pressure from family in old age? Like I know if I get any illness, the second I have to go into a home I would want to be euthanised.

 

[bluefoot]

Because we’re already comparing our parents (not children though) to the family pet. Pets that very often get put down because we can’t afford vet fees. I can’t see how a law will stop a child asking their parent if they’ve considered assisted dying when learning they have a life limiting or ‘burdensome’ condition

 

[Foxvint]

It's important to hear all sides on important issues so we're not in an echo chamber. Ofc no one's obliged to post if they're not comfortable but likewise discomfort isn't a great reason to avoid discussion. That's how the world ends up with things like shock election results. If our views can't take daylight, prodding and opposing arguments they aren't up to much.

I didn't consider the above about palliative care so I've already learnt something here.

 

[Foxvint]

I think it's very telling that the people who've watched a loved one die are almost unanimously in favour of assisted dying. Same for all the nurses I've met.

I think most opposition goes back to deeply entrenched religious ideas of how only God gets to take you.

I watched both my wonderful parents die long, drawn-out and horrible deaths from cancer. My lovely grannie died with hideous dementia, no longer the woman we knew. Would I have released them from that if I could? You bet! Do I think it should be brought into law? NO!

My opposition has nothing to do with my Christian faith, and everything to do with the fact that the "watertight" laws surrounding it would very soon be fudged and abused until people were being guilted or pushed into assisted death, or governments began killing people who were going to cost too much to provide healthcare for.

I greatly fear these conditions (or similar) for myself and would truly rather be dead than be in such pain or, in the case of dementia, giving such grief to my children - but I still oppose it.

This is a very steep and slippery slope and I dread the country stepping onto it.

I appreciate your post. I know there's strong valid arguments against. I think when people strongly object to something there's a danger that they start acting like it's becoming compulsory rather than an option. I'm not saying that's what you've done in the above but I notice a lot of the convos around this head straight to that extreme. If someone strongly objects to abortion or assisted dying they have the right to reject that for themselves- they don't have the right to deny me that option.

I'm interested in why it's countries with a strong human rights record and high standard of life that have been first to accept AD aswell. If dying is a part of life we have the right to exercise more control and autonomy around it.

 

[Former_Antelopee]

The problem with that is, if I felt like a burden to my husband or kids, that'd be a perfectly valid reason for me. We all have different expectations from family so I'm not saying it should be valid right across the board for everyone but the idea of someone not wanting to be a burden is perfectly acceptable to me. There's a limit on the care we can expect from our loved ones.

I agree and also the possible financial burden, if I'm suffering and it also is expensive to care for me I'd rather my family use the money than just keeping me alive when I wouldn't want to be alive anyway

 

[bluefoot]

I agree. It’s not going to be a fair choice if alternative decent palliative care and support isn’t there. Newsflash: it already isn’t.

I find some of the pro views being aired here and on the uk politics thread now totally abhorrent. Some people seem to find it quite easy to decide whose lives they consider more or less valuable. That’s the culture this law will come into.

I already feel the world inc the UK is on a very dangerous path. I feel this even more now.

I’m not even religious so that’s not what’s driving my views here.

 

[HockyRorror]

Sorry to hear this. If you can bear to share, what are your feelings about it now?

People should have the right to end their own lives. If no human: living, passed, or yet to be born, had a choice in being born then a human should absolutely have a choice in ending their own life if they want to.

EDIT: and thank you. My brain feels like it’s in a constant blender atm which you can imagine lol

 

[Witchfinder Sargeant]

Isn't it the opposite that is happening though where assisted dying is legal, It's the Parents that want to go down the assisted dying route to preserve their inheritance to their Children rather than the Children encouraging their Parents.

Both are happening. It will always be difficult/impossible to prove, but I know of people who have had their hands in their parents' pockets all their lives and are currently making extremely off-colour "jokes" about the prospect of AD being brought in.

 

[Foxvint]

I totally understand concerns about a crumbling NHS being unfit to administer these decisions in an ethical way. I also think you'd have to be a bit of psycho not to feel profound moral unease about things like a healthy but depressed person in their 20s being given state assistance to off themselves. Like millions I've suffered from major depressive episodes and I'm very happy I'm here today enjoying life and didn't throw the towel in. Would I have gone for AD if it was freely available, destigmatised and an option? Maybe. It's a sobering thought. Maybe I wouldn't be around to enjoy my adult kids and very happy second marriage. At the same time I don't think these personal anecdotes are a basis for legislation either way.

I read that an arl girl in Canada was left with a leaflet about AD because they couldn't install a stairlift for her. Obviously outrageous and completely fucked up athough it also made me laugh cos I've got a bit of a twisted sense of humour. People who insist no one will be leant on to take such a decision don't understand human nature very well. Choices aren't made in a vacuum. There's a reason none of us are bouncing about in recency clobber. We choose from the range of options available to us. Suicide can be an impulse like everything else. And impulses pass.

Did anyone see the case where the young Downs girl went to the court of human rights hoping to bring a legal challenge to mothers of Downs babies being offered termination? I thought it was very unfair and irresponsible of her parents to allow that. If mothers of Downs babies or any other disability decide to keep their baby they are supported to do so via the disability benefits and free at the point of use healthcare this country provides. The termination of these babies could only be described as a 'genocide' as it is by some extremist activists if these mothers were told well you were warned so no benefits for the special needs you'll face, no support to stay home as a carer and no free healthcare for their issues. The point is the choice. Meanwhile that poor girl was crying on her mothers shoulder outside the court, confused and feeling like a failure for having had her innocent one dimensional understanding of the issue exploited by her parents for the cameras.

Genuinely interested in all views on this. I certainly don't think I have all the answers.

 

[bluefoot]

It's usually the family rather than the patient objecting to a DNR even though Ethel is 92, blind, on a drip, suffering with no hope of improvement and her baby bird ribs would be smashed to bits with resus. We seem to have collectively forgotten that people do die. They don't last forever.

I agree that the issue is more the trying to prolong life with interventions that’s an issue rather than actively putting people to sleep

 

[MaineCoonMama]

I'm not sure how I feel about this topic. After watching my mother slowly decline due to dementia I would prefer not to go the same way.
I also have dual Australian-Canadian citizenship, I wonder if they would allow people like me who haven't lived in Canada for many years to utilise the facilities, as it were? It's a minefield.

 

[Foxvint]

So the bill passed as most people predicted. How's everyone feeling? I'm in favour but I know how horrible and hollowed out it feels when something you find really morally objectionable gets the green light.